Spain NT discussion

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Post by sportsczy Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:11 am

Spain should absolutely adopt a more direct style... that's exactly what i'm saying. You can't buy and sell players on NT to fit a philosophy. You need to fit your philosophy to the players that you have. The better attacking players and midfielders for Spain are better suited for a direct style.

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Post by The Franchise Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:31 am

No, they arent.

There are exactly 2 players, Cesc and Costa. You could argue neither should be starting.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:42 am

Azpi, Isco, Koke, Carvajal, EPL version of Silva, Costa, Raul Garcia, EPL version of Cesc, etc. All playing direct football at their clubs.

The only players evolving at clubs who play tiki taka are the Barca ones and Cazorla at Arsenal. That's the extent of it.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:08 am

Nobody is changing their entire style (to "direct football") for a fullback.

Silva and City do not play direct football, dunno what your talking about.

Really, they going to change their style for Raul Garcia? Really brother?

Isco needs to start actually playing football on a regular. He is lucky he even called up really.

Koke is the only other one you can make a case for, if you want to start him. And you think Cesc, Costa and Koke are better key figures than Iniesta, Busquets, Thiago?
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Post by halamadrid2 Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:45 am

Vdb is trying to fit a round peg in a square hole by playing Garcia and Costa. Atleti's style of play is simple, play a long ball to those two, win the second ball if you can otherwise just defend. I haven't really been impressed with anyone in the Atleti team attacking wise even Griezmann I fel like Simeone wants them to not concede more than to score. Koke looks like the most promising player on there but even he looks out of sort for the NT. They most talented player Torres can never catch minutes for Atleti as he doesn't defend like Simeone wants him to do and has therefore been shifted around to different teams for playing time.

Busquets I feel was carried by Xaviesta when they were in their peak because they used to keep the ball so well so his 3 cm passes werent a problem because teams could not even reach Spains half at that time, without them he looks incredibly lost and limited, but atm he is the best Spain have so he will likely continue

Cazorla is another average player stealing minutes, he is a bench player at best. In fact I think there are better players than him that should be on the bench ahead of him

Silva atm is Spains best player but the problem is Spain don't use an AM meaning they don't play to his strength which I think they should do because without him they look unimaginative and dull

Isco is one of those young players that can start but as dani said he does not have a proper position right now. he is a fine player though. Don't think he will start that much for us but hopefully he can show he has improved the defensive side of his game

I don't know what vdb sees in azpi, awful defender shite both defending and attacking wise for spain. Give me Alba any day

Pedro might play poorly for barca but until jese, carles gil, suso and Deulofeu get selected he should be there because he is the only player with speed and the ability to get behind the defence and get shots on goal

paco has been underwhelming in the games he has gotten, sure it's only a handful of games but he needs to do better, he looked equally poor when he played for the u19 team

long story short, nothing that spain do is coordinated, there is so much wrong with it atm. they don't seem to know whether they want to keep the ball or actually attack with it the moment they win it back. They are in limbo identity wise. Need to sort that out before they know what direction they will take.

Personally I would use this line up:

DDG
Carvajal-Laporte*-Ramos-Alba
Busquets
Koke-Silva-Iniesta-Pedro/Muniain**
Paco***

This will get the best out of most of their players. Silva and Iniesta will obviously need to help pressing which I am sure they would

*Unless he has been capped by france
**Until Jese gets back
***There are other alternatives there
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Post by sportsczy Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:57 am

They don't play a direct style at City with Yaya-Fernandinho midfield duo in a 4231?  That's news to me lol.  They try to get past the midfield area as quickly as possible... usually with Yaya running with the ball.  They get into the attacking 1/3 as quickly as they can and don't take ages with the ball either... attempt to breach the defense as soon as possible while taking risks.  Very little horizontal play unless it's absolutely necessary.  Their strength is in their forwards and they know it.

Changing your style for Costa, Silva, Cesc, Koke, Azpi, Carvajal, etc. since they ALL play in fast attacking systems at their clubs. If you don't agree, that's fine. But nobody plays tiki taka in EPL other than Arsenal... and they don't even do it as much as they used to. Far more direct with the likes of Ramsey, Wilshere and Ozil.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:04 pm

Watch the games, no they dont.

They keep the ball, they attack quickly, the switch sides, they make the opponent run, they play to the feet of the midfielders and to the spaces for Navas. They are quite a complete side in the way they play, but to classify them and Silva especially as a direct team/player is wrong in my opinion.

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Post by sportsczy Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:10 pm

i watch the games and i don't agree.  So there you have it.  They get past the midfield quickly and either go hard at the flanks or try to go with quick passing down the center.  They don't rush it...  but they don't waste time either.  It's all about looking to attack vertically as quickly as possible.

I think i know Pelle's system a tad better as a Madrid fan.  He likes short passing...  but it has nothing to do with tiki taka.  It's very South American:  Use quick passing and linkup to go vertical as opposed to hoofball without being reckless.  Most teams over there play like this.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:15 pm

Anyhow, i think it's combining direct play with tiki taka... so Barca fans are going to see the similarities with their style and those from teams who play more direct will see the similarities with their's.

Bottom line is that Spain needs to either change or adapt its philosophy. The players have changed.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:16 pm

Who said tika taka? What is that? It seems like your saying either its "tiki taka" or direct football.

You can say you think you know Pelle's system better because he was your coach, but that would mean something if I didnt watch the games or more importantly to this discussion didnt watch Man City on a regular basis.

You said they play direct football, I say no they dont.

It's all irrelevant anyway. Back to David Silva, how is he a direct player?

He wants the ball to his feet, he doesnt want to run up and down the pitch, he likes to pass and combine.

You tell me, which team do you think he suits more..Barcelona or Atletico Madrid?
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Post by vivabarca38 Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:04 pm

I'd say City Keep the ball and rely on fast transition in the final third,much like how we used to do regularly cause we now mostly rely on Messi and since Silva is usually an important part of the transition I would say he's a direct player.

Now to Spain,in the WC people were Blaming VDB for not playing the supposedly best players,when what they should have been calling for is the use of a working system.

Starting with De Gea,I think he's quite overrated honestly.Even though he saves United multiple times,he also makes quite a number of errors;Sigurdsson goal A few weeks ago or towards the end of last year in the League Cup against Sunderland.For me A Keeper like Sirigu is better by quite a margin.If we take into account only Current Ability,I'd say Casillas is better than him.

Second issue for me is Azpilicueta.I think playing Left back and Chelsea's style of play has given people excuses for his lack of offensive play when I think he plays much better there.He's an excellent player defensively,but he can't pass and he has no idea how to keep in line;which was one of the rare things Arbeloa was good at.
If VDB wants to continue with Posession first style of play,he has to bench him.Play with Carvajal and Alba on the Flanks.
Another issue is Koke,He's no Central Midfielder;he's an in-and out Right Midfielder....In Atleti's Double defensive block he's the guy on the right;not in the Center.He shouldn't be starting in a fully fit squad.

Another issue:Busquets I think his level has dropped significantly.He takes about half a second more nowadays to pass and he's become much slower;he was always slow but now he's too slos to cover.I'd like to hear Dani's take on his recent performances since I value his opinion.He's the least of Spain's worries though and their best option....Itturaspe pls.Actually no,I'd call up Mario Suarez.He's quite an underrated player for me and there's a reason why Simeone was so reluctant to let him go.
Another main issue:Spain without the ball...They seem like they don't know whether they should press anymore or play behind the ball and I think that's because on VDB since a player like Iniesta is used to pressing while a guy like Koke is used to play in a Defensive Block.He has tongive them clear instructions on what to do.
I'd play like this with a fully fit squad:Casillas/De Gea-Alba-Ramos-San Jose/Inigo/Albiol/Whoever-Carvajal-Busi/Suarez-Thiago-Iniesta-Jese/Munain-Silva-Costa/Negredo/Llorente.
Remove:Raul Garcia...He has no business in the squad.
Call up:Gabi and Suarez and Inigo Martinez.
Needs To play more:Isco...Should be Iniesta's backup and first option off the bench.

VDB has ALOT of work to do

Personally I'd go like this with a fully fit squad:


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Post by The Franchise Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:11 pm

When you say Busquets recent performances, when are you talking about? For Spain?
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Post by vivabarca38 Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:12 pm

In General
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Post by The Franchise Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:33 pm

Well the end of Barca' season was quite some time ago. But anyway I will answer. I think its quite simple with Busquets.

He is slow footed, one of the slowest players I have seen in my time. When he goes from jogging to sprinting, the change is hard to actually see.

Anyway, this isnt news to you im sure. The point I am making is, when this kind of player has run vertically he struggles. He cant cover ground and every single open counter attack is a nightmare for him. Which is why it is crucial that you play him in a team which plays with high pressure. Because then he doesnt have to turn and run, he can get directly behind the highest midfielder and steal balls from this static position. Something he does at an elite level.

Barcelona last season were a horrible pressing team, no organisation and hardly any effort. Teams were having possession % highs from about a decade ago. When teams are making us run up and down, Busquets will always look like crap because he simply cant run. Players will run past him, dribble past him and physically push him around because there is so much space to do it in. Spain were no better a pressing team, so no surprise he was the same there.

This is actually why I dont believe he should be moved to CM like some people suggest. He can press, but at CM, you have to press and if the press is beaten recover. At DM, your naturally closer to the goal so the distance between you and the backline is relatively short. At CM, it can be anywhere between 20-40m depending on the situation. It will take him too long to get back. Players dont push further forward when they get older, they go backwards, because they cover less ground.

But anyway in attack, he is reliant on a "system" (not in the traditional sense people speak of on here), no doubt about that. By system I mean, the fullbacks advance and play with width, the inside forwards make double and triple movements (towards the ball, away from the ball and then a diagonal run), the midfielder's rotating in a triangle to give him clear passing options. Barcelona lost this last season under Martino and it left Busquets as a player who had to improvise. He isnt that player, he isnt Xavi. He needs the team to have positional play or he isnt the same. Maybe some will see that as a knock on him, for me it isnt because the lone holding position for Barca is a very complicated one. You are used to seeing certainties because the positional play is so precise. When you have to improvise you are bound to make more errors.

Last season the best game I saw from him (which I can remember) was against Betis. A poor game overall, but one in which he was by a distance the best on the pitch. So it tells me that he isnt like Pique who just turns it on and off and wherever the team takes him he will go. Busquets has more maturity than that, more composure.

I think this season we will see alot, if Luis Enrique is the coach he seems, people like me wont be able to say the pressing system wasnt there and the positional play wasnt there, which is why he suffered.

If you look at the average positions under Enrique compared to Martino you will see some difference between where the fullbacks and 2 other mids are in relation to Busquets. Its quite different.

I definitely dont buy this "carried by player X" mantra. I have seen it happen to only a few players in my time, I think people are disrespectful of the talents some of the players possess.

Thats my opinion of Busquets last season.
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Post by halamadrid2 Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:54 am

Vdb: Iker will start vs Macedonia

Not only does iker own his club he also owns his NT Laughing
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Post by Valkyrja Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:11 pm

Ramos pulled out of the Spain squad and Bartra replaced him. How isn't Inigo called up is beyond me. Also Isco not being in the squad is pure madness.
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Post by Zealous Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:01 am

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After years, YEARS, of being criminally overlooked while barca scrubs are handed call ups left and right Callejon finally gets his deserved call up.

Nolito gets a deserved call up as well.

A potential front line of Morata, Isco and Paco looks promising as well.
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Post by dostoevsky Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:06 am

Callegoat Proud Going to show Costa how it's done :coffee:
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Post by Zealous Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:47 am

Bartra getting a call up is a disgrace btw. The dude barely plays for Barca if at all.

Not even going to touch Pique lol

Spain definitely have better CB's than those two.
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Post by Valkyrja Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:58 am

Is Inigo injured ?
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Post by fatman123 Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:10 am

pls score lots of goals and play really well without Costa
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Post by halamadrid2 Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:37 am

Seriously there aren't any decent CBs apart from Pique(who has convrniently lost his starting spot) and Bartra (who is third choice CB soon to be fourth once Vermealen gets back)?? What about Dominguez from Olympiacos?? he was so promising when he was at Atleti

Anyways alot of these Spanish players are out of form, so I am not surprised Pedro, Cazorla, Garcia and Busquets still get called up, VDB doesn't have alot to choose from

They should line up with:

Iker
Juanfran-Albiol-Ramos-Alba
Koke-Busi/Camacho-Isco
Callejon-Paco-Pedro/Morata
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Post by Valkyrja Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:28 pm

Iker
Azpi Pique Ramos Alba
Koke Busi Cesc
Callejon Paco Isco
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Post by Valkyrja Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:30 pm

Who the hell is Nolito btw?

Why isn't Herrera in the squad ?
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Post by terrance511 Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:05 pm

isco :bow:
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Post by Busby Babe Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:10 pm

Valkyrja wrote:Who the hell is Nolito btw?

Why isn't Herrera in the squad ?


Injured/not match fit.
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