Re: Spain NT discussion

by Adit Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:24 am

neuro11 wrote:
Adit wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Why is "ok" that Iker is past it now? He is 33...goalies traditionally arent finished at this agve. And its not like this switch flipped recently, he been mad questionable for going on for like half a decade and its only increasing in numbers of who believe this.

He was the best gk up until 2011. You are wrong way off if you think this world cup form has been his default form and u know it. He also was the best gk in euro asking with buffon in 2012.

May be he just got lazy he won it all...but this form is due to him not playing enough games. He played like 18 games this whole season.... If you have played this position (I does) u will know not playing consistently makes your firm even go lower.. That's why most of the second gk play terribly when called up.

May be, but then why would VDB, a world class coach would not understand this simple math when he has such other great ranks to choose from...

Its the same reason as he paying xavi,pique,Alonso etc while it was clear to see most of them were past it.. Why? Just like some one mentioned before u can't just bench a team that has won 3 major trophies in a row... they have to truly fail to change the team. There has to be a reason... Who are the gks uR talking about? Reina nd Valdez? Who are both past it.De gea has no history with the NT.. he is just here bcz of injury to 3rd choice keeper.

by Adit Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:00 pm

I was thinking, why not play a 4-4-1-1 ala the Aragones 2008 team?

Carvajal..........Pique........Ramos..........Alba

Isco/Silva.......Javi................Thiago........Iniesta

..........................Jese

.........................Costa

Silva could play the RW role but Isco has played winger in his career many times and Silva isnt convincing enough at wings. To add, Isco is also a goal scorer so having one more goal scorer in the team is also a plus.

Costa works similar to Torres, brings off the ball movement and runs behind the line.

Jese plays the Villa role, he is also good at making runs,dribbling,finishing and brings pace to the side so there will be enough goal scoring threat too.

by The Franchise Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:16 pm

Adit wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Why is "ok" that Iker is past it now? He is 33...goalies traditionally arent finished at this agve. And its not like this switch flipped recently, he been mad questionable for going on for like half a decade and its only increasing in numbers of who believe this.

He was the best gk up until 2011. You are wrong way off if you think this world cup form has been his default form and u know it. He also was the best gk in euro asking with buffon in 2012.

May be he just got lazy he won it all...but this form is due to him not playing enough games. He played like 18 games this whole season.... If you have played this position (I does) u will know not playing consistently makes your firm even go lower.. That's why most of the second gk play terribly when called up.

That's just your opinion, not a fact.

I havent forgotten Pato lol

You already know I have been watching La Liga for years, there is no need to educate me. Iker been making mistakes for ages. He is just even worse now, almost like a guy who should retire.

Obviously playing more consistently would help, but as I said above. Been making mistakes for ages.

by The Franchise Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:18 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
Adit wrote:this form is due to him not playing enough games. He played like 18 games this whole season.... If you have played this position (I does) u will know not playing consistently makes your firm even go lower.. That's why most of the second gk play terribly when called up.

Which means you are really scaring me for Argentina because Romero hardly played all of last season.

Romero was fantastic against Iran, clearly not a problem for everyone.

by harhar11 Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:30 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
harhar11 wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:

I don't think Del Bosque did anything wrong there. He encouraged Xavi to retire from international football after a world cup just as most great players do.

If Xavi wanted to retire from international football, he must have known that he was not at that level anymore..

No he probably just wanted to conserve energy for club football and Del Bosque convinced him not to give up on the world cup. I completely support what he did and so would others if the outcome had been much different. I even dreamed of a Zidane 2006 (without the head butt) kind of swansong for Xavi but alas.

Anyway the bigger question for me is just how much has Xavi declined. Is it more a case of him not being given the right system to play in given his age? I commented yesterday that I would like to see him in the kind of system Pirlo plays in i.e. willing runners and workers all around him and complete right to control everything.

Which probably means that Xavi thought that he did not have the legs to play for both his club and NT. A player knows his body better than anyone. I mean, from what I have heard from Xavi, he is not a independista and he clearly loves the NT. So if he wants to retire from it there must be a reason.

farfan wrote:how is real madrid responsible for what media outlets like el pais write ?

Where did I say that I blame Real Madrid? I said that the madrid MEDIA made me dislike the Spanish NT. I am not blaiming Real Madrid for what the stupid media from Madrid have done. I am blaiming the media, and only the media..

by Art Morte Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:40 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:More worrying to me is the quality of Spanish coaches. There is VDB, Pep and... Pepe Mel?

Roberto Martinez hmm

by messixaviesta Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:59 pm

The Franchise wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:
Adit wrote:this form is due to him not playing enough games. He played like 18 games this whole season.... If you have played this position (I does) u will know not playing consistently makes your firm even go lower.. That's why most of the second gk play terribly when called up.

Which means you are really scaring me for Argentina because Romero hardly played all of last season.

Romero was fantastic against Iran, clearly not a problem for everyone.

Yes dani but let's wait and watch how well he does in future games.

by titosantill Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:00 pm

"the lack of playing time" argument is based mainly on his confidence. A goal keeper playing the last 2 months of the season does little to assure him that the coach has confidence in him. its more an argument about his confidence taking a hit than his form. Goalies are not outfield players; an outfield player loses a bit of form, the coach can get him to play a different position, or bring him on as a substitute occasionally....with a goalie its different, buffon went through shit for long periods when juve got back to serie a and he wasn't rescinded to not playing at all or playing only the last 2 months of the season.....its not ancelotti's fault considering he had to take diego lopez into account as well, but when a goalie who has been heralded as one of the best for over a decade, doesn't get any game (league, champions league or cup, in the 2013 season), then plays only cup and ucl games the next season (considering these games may not get tougher until the semi finals or quarter finals stages), his confidence deteriorates, and it happens to the best of em. one of the worst things that can happen to a footballer is loss of confidence, that's when u see a striker who is normally selfish cos he can perform magic at any given time, pass the ball when he's in a goal scoring position, or goalkeepers making hasty decisions.....i will get a lot of flak for this part, but i'll say it anyway; mourinho apologists have been praising him saying he noticed iker's form, i say mourinho could have handled it better, and we all know sometimes he throws his players under the bus than motivate them e.g. eto'o the old man, benzema the cat, and so on....it may be best for iker to leave madrid if he continues to share minutes like he did this season, not because he is terrible (form is temporary class is permanent), but because he needs games.....van der saar went through something similar at juve, and if these forums were around in the late 90s early 00s i'm sure we'd have been seeing posts talking about how van der saar has lost it or how he was crap....fact is, you don't achieve what iker has achieved by luck or coincidence and two/three bad games isn't enough for any goalie to be treated like crap.....buffon, khan, toldo, taffarel, canizarez, zubizareta have all gone through crap periods, their situations were not solved by having them sit on the bench, or telling em 'adan' (lmfao) was better than them

by messixaviesta Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:01 pm

harhar11 wrote:

Which probably means that Xavi thought that he did not have the legs to play for both his club and NT. A player knows his body better than anyone. I mean, from what I have heard from Xavi, he is not a independista and he clearly loves the NT. So if he wants to retire from it there must be a reason.

Yes but note that while a clown like Domenech policed Makelele into coming back Del Bosque did nothing like that. He simply convinced Xavi like a guardian. I may be the only one here who thinks criticism of Del Bosque is way over the top and the man has actually done little wrong. He should now walk out with his head held high.

by harhar11 Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:07 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
harhar11 wrote:

Which probably means that Xavi thought that he did not have the legs to play for both his club and NT. A player knows his body better than anyone. I mean, from what I have heard from Xavi, he is not a independista and he clearly loves the NT. So if he wants to retire from it there must be a reason.

Yes but note that while a clown like Domenech policed Makelele into coming back Del Bosque did nothing like that. He simply convinced Xavi like a guardian. I may be the only one here who thinks criticism of Del Bosque is way over the top and the man has actually done little wrong. He should now walk out with his head held high.

I agree, but I still think that Del Bosque should have listen to Xavi, because after all, a player knows his body best. And as you can see, Xavi was indeed right in wanting to retire from the NT.

by Winter is Coming Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:30 am

Casillias and Xavi won't be playing the final game against Australia, Pepe Reina will be in goal.

by halamadrid2 Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:55 pm

THIS is Spain. Amazing how much better they play without Xavi, Bosquets ans Azpi.

They played like trademark Spain hounding you when losing the ball and attacking with both their fullbacks

imagine if VDB wasn't such a coward against Holland and Chile

by Curtinho Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:10 pm

halamadrid2 wrote:THIS is Spain. Amazing how much better they play without Xavi, Bosquets ans Azpi.

They played like trademark Spain hounding you when losing the ball and attacking with both their fullbacks

imagine if VDB wasn't such a coward against Holland and Chile

They would have still lost to the Netherlands, but maybe had a result against Chile. Don't forget they did this against a toothless Australia (missing Cahill).

by halamadrid2 Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:14 pm

it wouldn't have mattered because Australia didn't get the ball to their striker much because Spain kept winning the ball high up the field. Even that poor Spain dominated Holland in the first half, they only imploded after Alonso went out. Getting rid of Xavi and Busquets solved alot of their defensive problems and getting rid of Azpi solved their attacking

by sportsczy Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:16 pm

Australia are crap... utter crap. I can attest to this because i watched France drub them 6-0 in a friendly and it could have been 10-0 tbh. They can't handle teams that have a decent midfield at all.

That said, it's better for Spain to finish with a win. It'll make the trip home a bit easier.

by futbol Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:17 pm

hala getting a boner over a friendly against Australia. Bless. Proud

by Glory Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:18 pm

Azpi ... that overhype from the chavski guys regarding him is quite epic rofl

by futbol Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:23 pm

Lumiere_Blanche wrote:Azpi ... that overhype from the chavski guys regarding him is quite epic

And I fell for it. :facepalm:

His offensive play is worse than Arbeloa's. Absolutely clueless doing anything with the ball in offensive transition. Defensively nothing special either when he isn't surrounded by 10 other bodies in the box like at Chelsea where his hard work might get him all the fan adoration. Blind got 2 assists from his side.

Carvajal should play from now on and when I'm suggesting a Mehdrid scrub you know how desperate the situation is.

by Glory Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:28 pm

Fußball wrote:
Lumiere_Blanche wrote:Azpi ... that overhype from the chavski guys regarding him is quite epic

And I fell for it. His offensive play is worse than Arbeloa's. Absolutely clueless doing anything with the ball in offensive transition. Defensively nothing special either when he isn't surrounded by 10 other bodies in the box like at Chelsea where his hard work might get him all the fan adoration. Blind got 2 assists from his side.

Carvajal should play from now on and when I'm suggesting a Mehdrid scrub you know how desperate the situation is.

lol. yea I agree pirat

by halamadrid2 Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:29 pm

^^^^^

That's my boy Proud

fu€£$bal finally seing the light

I don't care how poor Australia have been in meaningless friendlies, they have been anything but 'easy to beat' this WC the same way Costa Rica were supposedly going to be easy to beat. Australia nearly won against both Chile and Holland and got nowhere against a much improved Spain side looking like they have done in previous tournaments.

Their future is bright

by sportsczy Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:46 pm

But this was a meaningless friendly Hala... and Australia were missing their best player.

I'll say it again... it's always better to win a game and play well even if the game means nothing. It makes the WC less embarassing for Spain.

by Firenze Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:25 pm

David Villa Molenation

by Arquitecto Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:07 pm

You guys are clueless. Fußball stick to talking about Germany.

Azpilicueta has been played the complete opposite of what he has all his career in tracking high without overlap on the RIGHT side to which he has never done on that flank. That specified role is a role he is not accustomed to which is why VDB playing him out of position was a daft move yet he was nowhere near as worse as Jordi Alba, someone you fail to mention. Alba not only was utter dross defensively in 2012 yet failed to even produce anything this tourney, actually playing in a role offensively accustomed to.

And here we had him threaten to decapitate a journalist post-Australia, this pathetic excuse of a fullback with empty words.

And LOL at the Carvajal suggestions. Please let's not even compare a RB who on both ends is not even close to Azpi considering his struggles outside Leverkusen to where he simply has not convinced bar a steady stream of consistency. You don't compare a fullback who has been performing on all levels since he was 17 to Carvajal Laughing

Stop those calls for replacements, España has far bigger worries.

And no there is nothing to be proud about this win. Australia are an average side who also were missing Tim Cahill. And no, the future is not bright if we remain stagnant and regressive as we are.

by futbol Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:56 pm

lel

No idea why you bring Alba up. Espana with Alba has conceded 1 goal in a major tournament. Espana with Azpilicueta has conceded 7 in 2 games. Out of the lineup and it's 0 goal conceded again. Obvious who's stinking up the place tbh.

Alba's offensive contribution is well documented.

Spain NT discussion - Page 20 Alba%20assist%20France

Spain NT discussion - Page 20 Alba%20assist%20France

Spain NT discussion - Page 20 Alba%20goal%20Italy

Azpilicueta maybe does this on PlayStation. In reality and in 29 Premier League appearances however he has a grand total of 0 assists and 0 goals. Let's not even talk about what he would do on a stage like a European Cup final.

Defensively Alba ain't Maldini but hyperbole like "utter dross defensively" is taking hypsterism to a whole new level. Espana's narrow formation with the likes of Iniesta, Silva and Cazorla playing as inside forwards requires responsibility from the fullbacks that goes beyond being a crafter in a Mouball system. Azpi fails tremendously in that regard. No shame in that. He can be a worldbeater at Chelsea. Not everyone suits every system.

by Arquitecto Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:08 am

See, I though we were talking about fullbacks here, In which their first and foremost priority is to defend; the production of offensive stats means considerably little especially the liability Alba has been defensively for España in 2012 and 9 months in friendlies to which he has been ripped by more names than you can count on.

Producing GIFS of a good cross and goal vs an Italia with 24 hours of rest does not serve to show his value outside his pacy transition on the left side. Azpi is not yet accustomed to this role on the right side, only having played it in Osasuna and in the champions league with Marseille and that on the left.

The mention of goals whom conceded when and where in which tournament is also irrelevant considering this Tourney is in a different climate with a team in complete different mentality, propensity and collecve quality compared to 2012.

If we compare who's had a better club season between Alba and Azpi this year, you'd get Azpi's mention above Alba 10/10 times.

I'd love to see headless Alba slotted in a system similar to Mourinho's which will actually require discipline, reading and anticipation compared to Barça's pseudo-wingback system. Oh wait he already did 2 seasons of absolute disaster before his final season in Valencia.

No point criticising either fullbacks when a much larger problem looms above our heads like a leviathan.

by futbol Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:24 am

Mate, you might have missed this, but Alba has only 15 La Liga caps for Barca this season. He was basically out with injuries the entire season and on top of that had his wisdom teeth removed shortly before the World Cup. No one will disagree that Azpi had a better season. He actually played consistently. Laughing

Statements like "first and foremost priority is to defend" from you disappoint me tbh. That's like saying "why ballplaying centerbacks - just put John Terry in Barca's high line". Why "a keeper who is good with his feet - put Cech in Barca's goal". Disregarding the style of play completely. Defensive fullbacks make no sense for a team that camps in the opposition half and averages 70+ % possession. Azpi gets nosebleeding when he passes the halfway line. You actually see it in his face that he's uncomfortable and doesn't know what to do when he gets as many touches on the ball as a midfielder. Alba today had 108 (!) touches. Juanfran had 89. "Defense first and foremost" doesn't compute. Spain's philosophy is defending by attacking.

Yes, there are other issues. Azpi is one of them though and I take any GL bet that he won't be starting in Euro 2016.

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