2020 US presidential election

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Post by sportsczy Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:10 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
rincon wrote:Tbh I think it's outrageous that you can vote in the US without an ID
yeah agreed, but also in the US they use ID suppression to suppress voting. Imagine a country that purposely makes it hard for you to get a government issued ID...

Organized crime issues caused this....like severe organized crime issues.

It's absolutely justified.  And having had to get IDs in multiple states and, recently, from returning to the US from Europe after almost a decade with an expired ID... it's not that hard.

All you need to get an ID is an original social security card (to validate identity) and proof of address (lease or utility bill).  That's it.  It's much much much harder in France.  It took me weeks over there.  It took me less than 2 hours in the US.

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Post by sportsczy Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:12 pm

@McLewis... I cannot believe what you're saying.  You especially.  With that line of thought, black people would NEVER have cast a single vote in US history.  The "they're too dumb and unsophisticated" excuse to exclude voters was used against black people for decades until the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

It's bigoted and racist nonsense.  You're now being racist toward a segment of the white population...  you do realize this, right?

You're absolutely not this way as far as I can tell man. You can't think like this. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and a vote in a democracy (convicted felons excluded). Just because you don't agree with the results of the democracy doesn't mean you ask for... the obscene measure you're describing.

Every adult counts.  The right to vote is inalienable as long as you can verify identity and residency.
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Post by El Gunner Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:40 pm

i know you said you're just mostly venting out of frustration McL, and i understand the place you're coming from, but with your suggestion you just entered a very slippery slope - who's to say you or the average college educated student is more well-informed than the trailer park person living in the Midwest of America?

there are a variety of biases that come into play in a democracy, especially in a one such as America

if you become upset, you should be upset at the larger system at play and not Trump or Republicans because that's just the circus/facade, by now most people should know this
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Post by M99 Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:43 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:
McLewis wrote:This is a controversial take, but just as Republicans believe everyone should have an ID specifically for voting, I believe one should have to be able to prove themselves intellectually competent enough to vote. They need to be able to prove an understanding of the issues, where they fit in, and the ability to think critically when voting at all levels. If they are unable to prove they have this ability, they should not be permitted to vote. How this is determined, that's up for debate, but given how many absolute idiots are in Congress, it proves their voters are even bigger idiots, which proves the need for something like this. I firmly believe that we got Trump largely because of people, who can't think critically, voting for him. They voted for him based purely on emotion, namely anger and resentment.  It's generally how we get bad politicians on both sides of the aisle, but it goes doubly for Republicans.

Trust me, you're not the first one who has thought about this. But the idea, even though it sounds appealing on paper, it actually brings more harm than good, and more importantly it wouldn't have changed the course of your last election even if you had applied it and I'm going to explain why.

First of all, the right to vote is a fundamental right that any citizen who hasn't done any crime must have. If you start giving the government ways to prevent its people from voting, the day that a corrupt leader takes over, they will use them to silence the opposition and whoever dares to criticize them. That's a dangerous situation to be in.

Now about the people who voted Trump. You can't generalize and lump all of them in the same box of ignorance, racism and stupidity. Sure, some of them are. But some of them are also actually pretty well-educated and know exactly what they are doing.

I'm sure you already know much more about the US than I do, but as an outsider, I completely see why he got elected, and it has nothing to do with him or his campaign. The damage of the outspoken minority of the radical left has led many Americans to feel extremely angry, resentful and suffocated in their own country with many of their fundamental rights being under threat, mainly free speech.

Trump was just a consequence (or rather a direct, albeit extreme response) from those people to bring their country back to a lesser PC-centered one.


See, you're a pretty well-educated guy, but you fail to see something that someone of your intellect should be able to grasp in a split second. Most people don't rely on their political knowledge to pick their candidates. They give more importance to ideologies and political affiliations. Because I'm pretty sure, even if I gave the democrats the perfect candidate, if he or she happens to be walking under the Republican umbrella, I guarantee you many of them wouldn't vote for her or him (same thing for many Republicans btw).

So even if you hypothetically educated the entire American population, many votes would still remain where they are in the ballot box.

And finally, don't underestimate the power of charisma in swaying people's votes. One of the main reasons the left lost the last elections is because they failed to replace Obama with an equally likable and charismatic candidate.

Trump shouldn't be this difficult to beat, but the left keeps on sending him lambs expecting them to magically appear as wolves. Send him someone like Obama and they would wipe off the floor with him.

Also, you have to silence the outspoken radical leftists. They are doing more harm to you than your rivals. Many people are fleeing your party because of their whining, eccentricities and their ability to find racism when there's none.

If most democrats were like you, Trump wouldn't have gotten elected.


Nope, sorry, making the country less political correct had a miniscule if any significant effect on Trump being elected.

I feel the main reason why Trump got elected is because there's a large segment of people that felt marginalized in Obama's era. The US economy kept on improving from The Great Recession but their situation was not getting better. Trump came on and promised MAGA, which meant for all the temporarily embarrassed millionaires that they will finally become great. Trump was laying the blame on everyone that was easiest to blame for these people. They were not unemployed because of lack of skill but because of Mexicans taking their jobs. The man got their vote. Hilary was a continuation of the status quo and Trump was their golden ticket in their minds. Thats why all the people in rural Florida that never bothered to vote before showed up in droves in the last election and turned it into a red state.

I also feel that dehumanization and shaming fuelled anger and resentment a lot and drove voters to him. "White trash" is something that is okay to disparage and make fun of in America, and from the start everyone who showed a shred of support for Trump was ridiculed and belittled. This intolerance triggered even more animosity and got him more voters.

Also the insane amount of media coverage he got had a lot to do with it. I guarantee you a lot of his voters did not even know the existence of Jeb Bush and probably only knew of Ted Cruz as the guy opposing Trump. From 2015 he was just all over news, media, TV, internet 100x more than any other candidates.

So yeah, I don't think being sick of "libtards" was why people voted for Trump. I have no idea whats gonna happen in this election. Do these voters now see Trump as a liar and charlatan? Are they still deluded in the hope of him making America great? Or have their lives actually improved and they are vindicated? Or maybe they are not all that great but think Biden and the return of Obama era democrats will be worse than keeping Trump.


Last edited by M99 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by CBarca Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:44 pm

I disagree with McLewis but I find the response a little weird. I feel like there is someone that mentions having to prove intelligence to vote as a discussion point like once a month here.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:54 pm

Trump will only be seen as a liar and charlatan (which he is) if the person opposing him isn't a liar and charlatan either (which he is).

In fact, I think all politicians are liars and charlatans frankly.

We're talking about degrees here.  

The thing with Trump is that he executed on everything he promised during his campaign, regardless of how outrageous those promises were.  That bought him a lot of credibility with those folks.  Also, the media is so biased one way or another... that it's impossible to get perspective on anything via mainstream outlets.  There's no debate.  Only patronizing inane mouth diarrhea.

It's hard to convince someone to think differently if you refuse to understand why they think the way that they do.  You have to use their perspective as the foundation to build a different narrative.  Everyone just ignores the other side's persective.
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Post by El Gunner Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:04 pm

CBarca wrote:I disagree with McLewis but I find the response a little weird. I feel like there is someone that mentions having to prove intelligence to vote as a discussion point like once a month here.


no there's not Laughing pls quote them and post them now
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Post by sportsczy Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:18 pm

I mused about this previously too El Gunner... I think right around when Trump got elected. But I quickly realized the error of my ways. I think BC set me straight if I remember Laughing Laughing
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:35 am

sportsczy wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
rincon wrote:Tbh I think it's outrageous that you can vote in the US without an ID
yeah agreed, but also in the US they use ID suppression to suppress voting. Imagine a country that purposely makes it hard for you to get a government issued ID...

Organized crime issues caused this....like severe organized crime issues.

It's absolutely justified.  And having had to get IDs in multiple states and, recently, from returning to the US from Europe after almost a decade with an expired ID... it's not that hard.

All you need to get an ID is an original social security card (to validate identity) and proof of address (lease or utility bill).  That's it.  It's much much much harder in France.  It took me weeks over there.  It took me less than 2 hours in the US.
I'm talking about tactics like closing RMDs that predominantly service lower income people just so they can't get a registration so that these people can't vote... has nothing to do with organized crime
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Post by sportsczy Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:45 am

RMD means Required Minimum Distribution in my world... so you'll need to spell out the acronym since I doubt that's what you're talking about.
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Post by McLewis Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:14 am

Like I said, guys. I knew that take was controversial and I knew it would be one that would result in disagreement. That's not a surprise. I lurk in enough echo chambers to have become bored of them. This entire political atmosphere has pushed me pretty far to the left on just about everything. It has me exploring concepts and notions I once dismissed. This is one of them.

I personally believe we will never truly solve the problems that can and should be solved in this country by electing people who have no business being in positions of power. Ill-informed and misinformed voters are responsible for this. Their lack of effort in keeping themselves informed are why we're in this mess. I see no other group to the point the finger at. What I suggested is radical. It's even dystopian in many ways. What's the alternative though? Moving far to the right  under Trump has made us worse. Staying in the center only got us Trump. Biden moves us back to what got us Trump. So what's the way forward?
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:27 am

sportsczy wrote:RMD means Required Minimum Distribution in my world... so you'll need to spell out the acronym since I doubt that's what you're talking about.
sorry meant dmv (department of motor vehicles)
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Post by sportsczy Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:59 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
sportsczy wrote:RMD means Required Minimum Distribution in my world... so you'll need to spell out the acronym since I doubt that's what you're talking about.
sorry meant dmv (department of motor vehicles)

I don't agree with that either. Doesn't mean two wrongs make a right.... that's what got us here in the first place.
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Post by sportsczy Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:00 am

@McLewis...  you stay within the constitution.  That's absolutely paramount no matter what else you do.

The most feasible radical step imo is to create a viable 3rd political party.  That HAS to happen. Macron created a separate party in France in less than 2 years... not sure why we can't do the same in the US. Macron dominated the elections on every level too. Not that he's been very good; but it shocked the system.
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Post by CBarca Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:27 am

What is the system of elections in France?

First past the post, winner takes all makes it very difficult to get anything more than two parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

sportsczy wrote:I mused about this previously too El Gunner... I think right around when Trump got elected. But I quickly realized the error of my ways. I think BC set me straight if I remember Laughing Laughing


I want to say Sepi and Myesyats have both at some time mentioned the same thing. No El G, I'm not going to comb through posts to quote them.
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Post by M99 Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:03 am

sportsczy wrote:Trump will only be seen as a liar and charlatan (which he is) if the person opposing him isn't a liar and charlatan either (which he is).

In fact, I think all politicians are liars and charlatans frankly.

We're talking about degrees here.  

The thing with Trump is that he executed on everything he promised during his campaign, regardless of how outrageous those promises were.  That bought him a lot of credibility with those folks.  Also, the media is so biased one way or another... that it's impossible to get perspective on anything via mainstream outlets.  There's no debate.  Only patronizing inane mouth diarrhea.

It's hard to convince someone to think differently if you refuse to understand why they think the way that they do.  You have to use their perspective as the foundation to build a different narrative.  Everyone just ignores the other side's persective.


Has he really? His most radical promises did not come into fruition. There is no wall being built. A "complete ban of all Muslims entering the United States" has not happened either. Outsourcing jobs to China and other low labour cost countries being stopped to create more jobs in the US, as far as I know nothing significant has happened in that case. And his handling of the corona situation has been a complete disaster with him first calling it a hoax, then telling people to inject themselves with disinfectants and then saying he was being sarcastic after his supporters were defending him and saying he was being misquoted.
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Post by Warrior Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:08 am

Trump is the automatic candidate for republicans ?

Hard to believe they cannot do better than that Laughing
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Post by El Gunner Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:55 am

CBarca wrote:What is the system of elections in France?

First past the post, winner takes all makes it very difficult to get anything more than two parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

sportsczy wrote:I mused about this previously too El Gunner... I think right around when Trump got elected. But I quickly realized the error of my ways. I think BC set me straight if I remember Laughing Laughing


I want to say Sepi and Myesyats have both at some time mentioned the same thing. No El G, I'm not going to comb through posts to quote them.


that's okay, i just thought you were lying because never have i seen someone post something of that nature in the past few months
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Post by Pedram Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:20 am

Warrior wrote:Trump is the automatic candidate for republicans ?

Hard to believe they cannot do better than that Laughing

Ironically he's the only Republican who can actually win right now, the party has completely changed its identity, someone like Mitt Romney would struggle to get past the primaries let alone win the general election, the party of fiscal conservatism and globalism is dead.
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Post by Freeza Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:10 pm

Pedram wrote:
Warrior wrote:Trump is the automatic candidate for republicans ?

Hard to believe they cannot do better than that Laughing

Ironically he's the only Republican who can actually win right now, the party has completely changed its identity, someone like Mitt Romney would struggle to get past the primaries let alone win the general election, the party of fiscal conservatism and globalism is dead.


They aren’t dead. They. Just moved across the aisle
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Post by futbol_bill Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:41 pm

McLewis wrote:Like I said, guys. I knew that take was controversial and I knew it would be one that would result in disagreement. That's not a surprise. I lurk in enough echo chambers to have become bored of them. This entire political atmosphere has pushed me pretty far to the left on just about everything. It has me exploring concepts and notions I once dismissed. This is one of them.

I personally believe we will never truly solve the problems that can and should be solved in this country by electing people who have no business being in positions of power. Ill-informed and misinformed voters are responsible for this. Their lack of effort in keeping themselves informed are why we're in this mess. I see no other group to the point the finger at. What I suggested is radical. It's even dystopian in many ways. What's the alternative though? Moving far to the right  under Trump has made us worse. Staying in the center only got us Trump. Biden moves us back to what got us Trump. So what's the way forward?


To be fair McLewis, politics has always been filled with ill informed voters and ill prepared politicians. I’ve always thought (and keep in mind that I have been involved with at least twice as many elections as all of you) that the average voter is so dumb that can’t see thru the bullshit. That part of the system you can’t change unless it's an authoritarianism rule. What could be done is to create a third party, what I suggested here months ago, but was quickly dismissed!
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:49 pm

sportsczy wrote:@McLewis...  you stay within the constitution.  That's absolutely paramount no matter what else you do.

The most feasible radical step imo is to create a viable 3rd political party.  That HAS to happen. Macron created a separate party in France in less than 2 years... not sure why we can't do the same in the US. Macron dominated the elections on every level too. Not that he's been very good; but it shocked the system.
3rd parties have a number of challenges in the US.

1. The first past the post method basically forces people to think of voting for 3rd parties as "wasting" their vote, forcing even supporters to choose the "lesser evil".
2. In the US debates drive votes, and access to those debates is owned by the 2 parties. Literally, there is a biparty commission that organizes these and excludes everyone else. Before Ross Perot won 20% of the vote it was organized by a woman's group, then after that the parties realized the dangers of a 3rd party and took ownership of the organization.
3. US politics is incredibly tribal and as such breaking in for any outsider is very difficult

I think a sensible 1st step would be to introduce ranked choice voting (something that is thankfully gaining momentum). That essentially gets rid of the "lesser evil" argument by allowing people to vote for their true preferences without impacting the end result. After that some regional parties in 1 party states could show up that could eventually turn national. But we're talking decades away...

You can't compare France's system with proportional representation to the US.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:53 pm

McLewis wrote:Like I said, guys. I knew that take was controversial and I knew it would be one that would result in disagreement. That's not a surprise. I lurk in enough echo chambers to have become bored of them. This entire political atmosphere has pushed me pretty far to the left on just about everything. It has me exploring concepts and notions I once dismissed. This is one of them.

I personally believe we will never truly solve the problems that can and should be solved in this country by electing people who have no business being in positions of power. Ill-informed and misinformed voters are responsible for this. Their lack of effort in keeping themselves informed are why we're in this mess. I see no other group to the point the finger at. What I suggested is radical. It's even dystopian in many ways. What's the alternative though? Moving far to the right  under Trump has made us worse. Staying in the center only got us Trump. Biden moves us back to what got us Trump. So what's the way forward?
If you have to filter who votes/who gets elected, it's better to limit the people that can be elected to office. There's already some precedent for this, as certain roles already have age limits and so on. You could pass other restrictions to make sure they pass some sort of integrity check, basic understanding of law, math, sciences, etc, some experience running a business, or whatever your persuasion is for what exactly is the minimum level of knowledge needed to run the country. But limiting the voters would have huge unintended effects that would hurt those most vulnerable.


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Post by The Demon of Carthage Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:40 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:If you have to filter who votes/who gets elected, it's better to limit the people that can be elected to office. There's already some precedent for this, as certain roles already have age limits and so on. You could pass other restrictions to make sure they pass some sort of integrity check, basic understanding of law, math, sciences, etc, some experience running a business, or whatever your persuasion is for what exactly is the minimum level of knowledge needed to run the country. But limiting the voters would have huge unintended effects that would hurt those that would stand to benefit the most.

This is a very good point, BC. By making sure that only competent people can get into office, even if voters have no political knowledge whatsoever and have no idea who to vote for, they won't screw up because they'll end up choosing a competent one every time.

The filtering would be brutal (in a good way) by the way, because there are many politicians in the political landscape who absolutely have no business being there.
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Post by futbol Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:25 pm

These things wouldn't work because on paper Trump would tick all the boxes. He graduated at an elite Uni and so did Bush Jr. who was at Yale and Harvard despite not knowing that there are black people in Brazil.

If you come from a multi millionaire family clan, being an Ivy League graduate while running 3 business at the same time is a mere formality.

So much for "basic understanding of law, math, sciences, etc, some experience running a business".

Tbh democracy simply means ruling of the masses. No one ever said the masses have to be "good", intelligent, fair, noble or whatever. Do a poll today and about 45 % of Americans would endorse Trump who thinks injecting disinfectents is a good idea to cure Corona, among the 6000 other absurd things he's said. If that's the voting population, the error does not lie with the elected president.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:39 pm

futbol wrote:These things wouldn't work because on paper Trump would tick all the boxes. He graduated at an elite Uni and so did Bush Jr. who was at Yale and Harvard despite not knowing that there are black people in Brazil.

If you come from a multi millionaire family clan, being an Ivy League graduate while running 3 business at the same time is a mere formality.

So much for "basic understanding of law, math, sciences, etc, some experience running a business".


How does Trump show a basic understanding of the law and sciences?

Anyways, I'm not arguing for it, just saying that if you find the quality of the elected official to be poor, it's better to address the problem directly rather than indirectly by limiting who can vote. I wouldn't be in favor of either as they both have drawbacks, but find this to be a preferable alternative.

futbol wrote:Tbh democracy simply means ruling of the masses. No one ever said the masses have to be "good", intelligent, fair, noble or whatever. Do a poll today and about 45 % of Americans would endorse Trump who thinks injecting disinfectents is a good idea to cure Corona, among the 6000 other absurd things he's said. If that's the voting population, the error does not lie with the elected president.


We don't live in a pure democracy. No one here does. We live in republics with built in checks and balances against exactly this, and for good reason too.
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