Re: The Coronavirus Thread - Part 2

[CBarca]

Would be genuinely interested to know what Boris, right now, lying in his hospital bad, perceives as the more tantalizing sensation -

the fever, chest pain and difficulty breathing, or the realization that for the very first time in his life he's actually suffering consequences for doing and saying dumb and irresponsible stuff

Karma is a bitch

[Hapless_Hans]

Yeah I want to clarify that I'm not actually, physically laughing about this, or getting a boner as Sepp proclaimed.

That is not how this works.

But it is objectively hilarious, within an enormously fucked up context.

[Freeza]

It is peak irony really.

[Hapless_Hans]

It is peak irony really.

It doesn't get better than this, honestly

These are moments to cherish, really

[Hapless_Hans]

You know who's having a boner from this though?

This guy

[Pedram]

At least Boris is funny, Raab is just bland and significantly to the right of BoJo.

Geniuely hope he pulls through so we can keep make fun of him.

[M99]

I don't like the guy but I hope he pulls through. Wishing death or celebrating or is a big no for me.

Unless its Laden.

But he does have only himself to blame. Wasn't he bragging about shaking corona patient's hands

[Lucifer]

It is peak irony really.

It doesn't get better than this, honestly

These are moments to cherish, really

This imo.
Next in queue should be Modi, Bolsonaro and Trump in no particular order. Corona pls look into it.

[Myesyats]

Guys, I'm fearing for my life here some times. It was close for a legislation to be passed last night that threatened citizens with jail time if you failed to participate in upcoming "democratic" presidential elections. It has been outvoted since but the simple fact that it has been proposed has me worried what can be put forward and possibly passed in the future.

In these uncertain times I am realistically thinking about ways out of the country since the leaders are using deceit and nearly tyrannical devices to tightly hold onto power in the light of a crisis.

[Hapless_Hans]

Guys, I'm fearing for my life here some times. It was close for a legislation to be passed last night that threatened citizens with jail time if you failed to participate in upcoming "democratic" presidential elections. It has been outvoted since but the simple fact that it has been proposed has me worried what can be put forward and possibly passed in the future.

In these uncertain times I am realistically thinking about ways out of the country since the leaders are using deceit and nearly tyrannical devices to tightly hold onto power in the light of a crisis.

One thing is clear, the EU as an institution has been rather absent and passive in this crisis.
The countries have dealt with this in emergency mode, and that has included the breaking, or at least temporarily ignoring, of rules, laws, and treaties on several level.

I'm not actuall well informed about all this, but I guess some of the measures, the closing of borders etc, are in breach with, or at least in breach in terms of institutional etiquette and due process of, EU treaties about free movement and stuff, etc.

At the same time, on a national level, a lot of measures have been done that are SEVERELY restricting or even suspending fundamental constitutional rights, like freedom to assemble (with the right to assemble to demonstrate and protest clearly on of the most integral constitutional laws), freedom to do business, freedom to practise religion, on to 'minor' breaches like right to privacy
Both the amount, and the degree of constitutional legality, of these measure surely vary in different EU countries.

Governments like Hungary's fascists and, as you write, the PiS in Poland, have used the crisis to shift the balance of powers towards the executive and towards authoritarianism.

While this is going on, it is very hard to organize, protest, and fight against it.
As I wrote, the suspension of reight to free assembly also means you can't assemble to protest that very suspension.

It is also difficult to argue against it, because the protection of lives IS at stake.
While no doubt there should be tough debate, and checks, about the measures, there's this sense of urgency and of the need for swift action without asking question and delaying things, that makes all this difficult.
For example, I am unable to state that I consider most of this severe measure to be wrong, in Germany, at this point.

Which all the more means that there ABSOLUTELY MUST be a strong effort made, once the pandemic is over or recedes, or already once there is any breathing room, by ALL OF US, to make a reckoning, accounting, of what went on, and to clear up the rubble of this catastrophy.

When an earthquke hits, or after cities were bombed, people gather to clear the rubble and debris.

The rubble and debris of this catastrophy will be the breached, violated, and shattered laws and civil rights, and the breached and shattered international agreements, conventions, declaration of values, chartas, etc.

And it will be of utmost important that we all work to clean it up and to remember all the fundamental values and rights that are important to be reinstated, to be recovered, and to be healed. They too are patients of this pandemic.

I must say I am pessimistic.
Because much like our systems of health care, and much like the patients dying of corona due to preexisting condidtions, the state of our system of values, rights, agreements wasn't very strong to begin with.

In your case, I hope the EU pressures Poland to not drift further away from constitutionality and civil rights. And I hope the civil society in Poland can stay strong and fight it, I'm sure you are not the only one worried and alert, so it the majority of Polish people I would guess?

[Hapless_Hans]

I also want to add that sadly, tragically, some affected by this anti-pandemic effort and measure can't actually wait until we feel safe to protest again, or to grant everyone the luxury of human rights again. For some whole groups of people, for some fundamental causes, this whole thing will be fatal, is being fatal.
The case of caring about refugees is hurting badly. Politically, noone cares about refugees and their plight anymore.
Closing borders and not letting anyone in is now self evident. Fiscal, or charity, money which may be mentally bookmarked for 'surplus' expenditures of humanitarianism will now go to people close by, affected economically, who were doing just fine before.
The ones marginalized before will be even more marginalized.

Everyone is concerned about their own health, focused more exclusively about their own economic situation, the capacity to empathize with the refugees, who are existentially left alone and fucked over by all, in camps at the outskirts of the EU, is severly restricted too, not that it was abundant before.
That's why I, for my part, want to streamline and concentrate my remaining empathy on these helpless, doomed people, who have no economic bail out measure, no financial security to fall back on, no health insurance, no proper fucking water supply to wash their hands, instead of say, some douchy head of state who has, and has had, all possible riches of entitlement going for him, and also already single-handedly more news and media attention to his suffering

[Myesyats]

It's very complicated, because our population is largely conservative so basically no matter what the right-wing party does, they are more inclined to vote right anyways. And most of the populus dont even know that many things they do are unconstitutional because the main news channel is 100% controlled by the state, essentially, and they broadcast only the stuff that they want ordinary people to hear. On top of that, many are naive enough to believe all of this shit is only "for the good of the people" and that this way we will beat the coronavirus.

As you said, at this point the people are rather powerless with all the restrictions that have been imposed. I am hoping for an agressive EU intervention as we are dangerously walking towards the path that Hungary has stepped onto and it feels like nothing can be done about it.

Many other media outlets are making a big fuss about the "jail time" that was proposed for not casting your vote so hopefully it reaches more people. Fun fact: with your voting card, you have to attach your name and identity number. So basically they'll know the name of everyone who voted against them.

[Hapless_Hans]

It's very complicated, because our population is largely conservative so basically no matter what the right-wing party does, they are more inclined to vote right anyways. And most of the populus dont even know that many things they do are unconstitutional because the main news channel is 100% controlled by the state, essentially, and they broadcast only the stuff that they want ordinary people to hear. On top of that, many are naive enough to believe all of this shit is only "for the good of the people" and that this way we will beat the coronavirus.

As you said, at this point the people are rather powerless with all the restrictions that have been imposed. I am hoping for an agressive EU intervention as we are dangerously walking towards the path that Hungary has stepped onto and it feels like nothing can be done about it.

Many other media outlets are making a big fuss about the "jail time" that was proposed for not casting your vote so hopefully it reaches more people. Fun fact: with your voting card, you have to attach your name and identity number. So basically they'll know the name of everyone who voted against them.

First of all, thanks for updating us on that situation. I'm actually very  invested to hear about this, you guys are next door neighbors, I've been to Poland more times than I've been to some German federal states, and I know too little about what's going on.

How is the process of challenging the constitutionality of a law/an executive measure in Poland?

In Germany, parties can sue in front of the Constitutional Court, but it often takes a long time to be decided and the power to enforce is somewhat precarious, if the government acts in bad faith.

Also, of course, the composition of this highest court is so crucial, we could see the fatefulness of a corrupt supreme court in the US with the disastrous and momentous Citizen United ruling, I'm sure the PiS would have been busy enriching such a court with as many good staunch clerical-conservatives as they possibly can?

As for the boldest part, that would be absolutely fucked up.
Secrecy of the ballot is one of the most fundamental democratic rights and principles.

How a process that violates that principle so blatantly could be waved through as constitutional is beyond me.

In Germany, there's of course the possibility to vote by mail, but the process IIRC is thatyou send your ballot in an envelope within an envelope containing also your voting card with your info.
That outer envelop is only allowed to be opened to check the legality of your vote, the envelope inside with the actual ballot is given unopened to someone else to be opened and processed.
Surely if the election is decided to be mail-only in Poland, which is surely unconstitutional already for the reason you posted earlier (if the measure to vote this way is due to an emergency state, how can they have an election in the first place), at least such a process must be installed

[VivaStPauli]

Think I might've had it, with very mild symptoms, since about 10 days.

Not sure, I had a cold before (3 weeks ago), but that was almost gone and then I kept feeling somehwat weird. Very tired and easily exhausted, I developed a constant need to not really cough, but clear my throat, and for a couple of days my lungs felt weird and heavy, not hurting, but weird.

Might not be anything but a long slow plolonged comedown from my cold, though.

Can't wait until they start producing them proper anti body test so I can check and go visit my old parents again

This is me btw, had a cold right before the lock down (or so I thought) and now felt exactly as you describe for two whole weeks now (15th day today), how long did that shit last for you?
It doesn't feel all that life-threatening but I'm a bit of a hypochondriac and it's giving me tremendous amounts of anxiety. Which is why I haven't posted much. Really don't want to read too much about the virus until I feel better.

[Hapless_Hans]

Think I might've had it, with very mild symptoms, since about 10 days.

Not sure, I had a cold before (3 weeks ago), but that was almost gone and then I kept feeling somehwat weird. Very tired and easily exhausted, I developed a constant need to not really cough, but clear my throat, and for a couple of days my lungs felt weird and heavy, not hurting, but weird.

Might not be anything but a long slow plolonged comedown from my cold, though.

Can't wait until they start producing them proper anti body test so I can check and go visit my old parents again

This is me btw, had a cold right before the lock down (or so I thought) and now felt exactly as you describe for two whole weeks now (15th day today), how long did that shit last for you?
It doesn't feel all that life-threatening but I'm a bit of a hypochondriac and it's giving me tremendous amounts of anxiety. Which is why I haven't posted much. Really don't want to read too much about the virus until I feel better.

I have no anxiety at all as I'm more or less fine. And it also hasn't gotten worse at all, actually got slightly and slowly better during the last week.
But, yesterday something happened again which I can't help but find  a bit too weird: I did my first proper bike ride in a while yesterday and found myself astoundingly bothered by the disability to breath deep when getting a bit exhausted. I was at the point of fucking gasping after speeding a little ffs. This was not normal, it was a oppressive feeling.

Now, obviously, with the long and proper cold I had, and the working from home, and the self isolation measures meaning you don't really go out to do stuff, I have had little to no exercise for about 3-4 weeks now - the cold kept me from running or exercising and not even my usual long bike ride to work etc did happen
But I'm used to being more fit on the bike than this, even after a period of losing condition, and if I were to get tired it's usually more the muscles than the lungs ffs. I should have no trouble getting air on my fucking bike.
It felt like I had taken up smoking again (haven't smoked a single cigarette in 4 years now), and smoked 3 packs a day or some shit.

It's weird. But I might just as well over-interpreting just the fact I'm still not fully recovered from the cold and had a serious lack of motion, and the feeling of oppression might stem from the fact I was attributing this relatively benign thing (being out of air when exertin oneself) to a potentially serious illness going around in everyone's minds and all of public life.

But yeah, I don't feel too bad, I have no fever, I'd say the chances I have it are still small; would love to test it at some point in the not too distant future though

[Jay29]

My own situation is a bit weird too.

Early March I developed what I thought was a normal cold. Went to work as normal because I didn't feel too bad.

A week later I started having hot flushes at work, but otherwise no other symptoms. Then on the 16th, I came home feeling terrible. Aches, sore throat, coughing, etc. Went to bed that night shivering and feeling very hot. This is strange to me because I usually get one cold per year, if that. Two back-to-back in such a short space of time is a massive outlier.

Anyway, from the 17th I was in self-isolation. My symptoms cleared up quickly. A persistent cough is all that's left. Recently though, that cough has gotten a bit worse and I've no idea why. My nose and throat have also felt weirdly irritated, but that's cleared up. None of this has prevented me going out running.

It could just be a cold or my mind playing tricks on me, given the circumstances. It's just kinda frustrating not knowing for sure.

[VivaStPauli]

Ah, so you still got it, Hans, ok. Thought you could tell me something nice about how it's going to be gone soon! Too bad. But yeah it doesn't feel too bad, either a cold running it's course very slowly, or a very mild case of the Corona, I can only wait and see, I've been isolating since I got my cold anyway.

[Myesyats]

First of all, thanks for updating us on that situation. I'm actually very  invested to hear about this, you guys are next door neighbors, I've been to Poland more times than I've been to some German federal states, and I know too little about what's going on.

It's the least I can do at this point

How is the process of challenging the constitutionality of a law/an executive measure in Poland?

It's quite similar to yours, I guess, but theres no point in suing since judges are mostly corrupt.

Also, of course, the composition of this highest court is so crucial, we could see the fatefulness of a corrupt supreme court in the US with the disastrous and momentous Citizen United ruling, I'm sure the PiS would have been busy enriching such a court with as many good staunch clerical-conservatives as they possibly can?

Yes, PiS picks and chooses their own judges and those who oppose them are pressured. Over the years they have also pushed legislations that undermine judicial power.

As for the boldest part, that would be absolutely fucked up.
Secrecy of the ballot is one of the most fundamental democratic rights and principles. How a process that violates that principle so blatantly could be waved through as constitutional is beyond me.

Yes... what can I say. I'm thinking I shouldnt vote in that case, but that would mean less votes against the right. So I'm torn. But they'll probably choose which votes count and which dont anyway, if you know what I mean.

In Germany, there's of course the possibility to vote by mail, but the process IIRC is thatyou send your ballot in an envelope within an envelope containing also your voting card with your info.
That outer envelop is only allowed to be opened to check the legality of your vote, the envelope inside with the actual ballot is given unopened to someone else to be opened and processed.

That is better, obviously, and makes sense. I personally am very much for canceling the elections altogether but PiS knows a crisis is coming and that it will hurt them so they want to entrench their power as quickly as possible.

Surely if the election is decided to be mail-only in Poland, which is surely unconstitutional already for the reason you posted earlier (if the measure to vote this way is due to an emergency state, how can they have an election in the first place), at least such a process must be installed

State of emergency would mean that they'd HAVE TO reschedule the elections so they're not doing it, while the opposition fights for it. Consequently, elections at another time would mean they'd have to face the major consequences of the crisis before the elections which would inevitably hurt them and they are aware of it.

[Robespierre]

I don't know how it's the weather from you, but last year we missed the Spring. Basically it  has been the most rainy Spring for years, so we've passed directly from Winter to Summer in June.
This year is different of course, and it looks like that typical Spring worthy to be lived. But of course you can't, or rather , you MUST not go  out.
Since anything that can go wrong will go wrong (Murphy Law) I expect 0 days of rain and even a sunny  Easter Monday ( it never happens, it's the day of pic nic)
Exactly now when rain is the most effective measure of deterrence for ppl.
Worried about Easter mainly, at least church will be closed. Well, basically it 's been   realized what I've dreamt for years, shame I hoped it was for another context

[Art Morte]

Apparently black people in the US have been proportionally more affected by corona than other groups. Is it because:
a) they live in more crowded suburbs?
b) they don't comply with social distancing rules as well as others?
c) something else?

[zigra]

Myesyats, I don't like it but I honestly don't see the EU intervening in any meaningful way. Sure some people will speak up against it and who knows there might even be penalties but I just don't expect anything that will truly stop this bs. To be honest I'd seriously consider leaving the country once the pandemic is under control and freedom of movement restored.

[Pedram]

Apparently black people in the US have been proportionally more affected by corona than other groups. Is it because:
a) they live in more crowded suburbs?
b) they don't comply with social distancing rules as well as others?
c) something else?

You got it backwards, afaik American suburbs are actually less diverse and more white, the black population are usually in big cities and the urban centers.

[rincon]

Myesyats, I don't like it but I honestly don't see the EU intervening in any meaningful way. Sure some people will speak up against it and who knows there might even be penalties but I just don't expect anything that will truly stop this bs. To be honest I'd seriously consider leaving the country once the pandemic is under control and freedom of movement restored.

The EU has already been trying, Hungary vetoes actions against Poland, Poland vetoes actions against Hungary.

The process itself locks down significant actions since other member states can veto and they allied with each other.

[Art Morte]

Apparently black people in the US have been proportionally more affected by corona than other groups. Is it because:
a) they live in more crowded suburbs?
b) they don't comply with social distancing rules as well as others?
c) something else?

You got it backwards, afaik American suburbs are actually less diverse and more white, the black population are usually in big cities and the urban centers.

Ah, sorry, I wasn't even thinking about the meaning of suburbs, I was just trying to refer to the areas where they live, where ever that is.

I read the BBC's article about the matter but it was pretty light in terms of explanations.

[Zagadka]

Anyone else thinks the virus is a bit picky and choose with which genes and DNAs it kills more.

Italians, Spaniards and Iranians (double fatality rate at least, if not triple) and now Turks seem to have been hit very badly with this virus with high mortality rate.

Whereas Germans and Scandinavians of nordic/germanic background seem to cope better with the virus.

Just an observation. Can't comment on East Asians, because who knows what the real number of fatalities in China is

[Zagadka]

First of all, thanks for updating us on that situation. I'm actually very  invested to hear about this, you guys are next door neighbors, I've been to Poland more times than I've been to some German federal states, and I know too little about what's going on.

It's the least I can do at this point

How is the process of challenging the constitutionality of a law/an executive measure in Poland?

It's quite similar to yours, I guess, but theres no point in suing since judges are mostly corrupt.

Also, of course, the composition of this highest court is so crucial, we could see the fatefulness of a corrupt supreme court in the US with the disastrous and momentous Citizen United ruling, I'm sure the PiS would have been busy enriching such a court with as many good staunch clerical-conservatives as they possibly can?

Yes, PiS picks and chooses their own judges and those who oppose them are pressured. Over the years they have also pushed legislations that undermine judicial power.

As for the boldest part, that would be absolutely fucked up.
Secrecy of the ballot is one of the most fundamental democratic rights and principles. How a process that violates that principle so blatantly could be waved through as constitutional is beyond me.

Yes... what can I say. I'm thinking I shouldnt vote in that case, but that would mean less votes against the right. So I'm torn. But they'll probably choose which votes count and which dont anyway, if you know what I mean.

In Germany, there's of course the possibility to vote by mail, but the process IIRC is thatyou send your ballot in an envelope within an envelope containing also your voting card with your info.
That outer envelop is only allowed to be opened to check the legality of your vote, the envelope inside with the actual ballot is given unopened to someone else to be opened and processed.

That is better, obviously, and makes sense. I personally am very much for canceling the elections altogether but PiS knows a crisis is coming and that it will hurt them so they want to entrench their power as quickly as possible.

Surely if the election is decided to be mail-only in Poland, which is surely unconstitutional already for the reason you posted earlier (if the measure to vote this way is due to an emergency state, how can they have an election in the first place), at least such a process must be installed

State of emergency would mean that they'd HAVE TO reschedule the elections so they're not doing it, while the opposition fights for it. Consequently, elections at another time would mean they'd have to face the major consequences of the crisis before the elections which would inevitably hurt them and they are aware of it.

May 11 rule by decree similar to Hungary I feel.

The c*nt Kaczynski wasn't even wearing masks and gloves in the SEJM yesterday.

this Friday is Smolensk 10 year crash anniversary...wonder how they'll hold a parade/memorial without violating the quarantine laws.

but I'm sure they'll find a way. different rules for different people.

btw, I saw a guy drinking coffee on the street given a fine by 2 police officers. Unreal scenes

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