Decade Review

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Post by sportsczy Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:31 pm

futbol_bill wrote:Sports, you’re using PSG as the the sampling for the continuation of transfer fees escalation. This is a club that is unlike all the others in terms of owner finances except possibly City. And as you have pointed out, their expensive transfer have worked out for them.

Try that analysis on all the clubs that have made the 100+ signings, the vast majority of which have been disappointment.

So although I will buy your argument re EPL clubs have financial capacity plus PSG, I think most clubs will be hesitant to spend more than 100M unless it truly is an elite player. There are far too many examples of players looking like elite and turning out to be duds.

Then there is Barca that have to borrow money just to meet payroll! I see people using them as an example of how to make expensive transfers, yet they are at best only slightly better than us and ALL of their recent transfers have been duds!

No i'm not. I'm pointing that they are actually the 4th net biggest spender (City outspent them by almost 2x) AND there are more than 10 clubs that spent net over 250 million over the past 5 years.... with that net spend increasing significantly overall in the EPL every year.

PSG has a false reputation for crazy spending when they literally only spend big on superstars like Neymar, Ibra and Mbappe... otherwise, they invest in young players like Kehrer, Verratti, Diallo, Marquinhos, Kurzawa (all of which were 22 years or younger at purchase).

Your 'this spending can't continue' and 'PSG is a crazy spender' lines hold absolutely no water when looking at overall economic facts.

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Post by futbol_bill Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:18 pm

I believe Timmy and I are talking about the high transfer pricing, i.e. the 100M+, whereas you are talking about clubs’ net spending. I agree with you that we won’t see a decrease in net spending, however I still think, clubs will be hesitant on those 100M+ prices and therefore we won’t see a lot of 100M signings and thus not a lot of escalation of the Neymar ceiling. The lone exception that I foresee is Mbappe.

Mind you if we see a change in 100M signings being effective (vs all the duds in past several years), then I would say those players are truly elite and therefore the true elite players (like Mbappe) will be able to command higher signing values.

IMO, it’s a case of demonstrated results.
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Post by sportsczy Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:34 pm

That's the exact point!  When you have 20-25 clubs or so that can spend 100 mil on a player no problem, which is the case today since literally the entire top half of EPL have the budget and more going forward (the media deal increases in value every season)....  and all these clubs are competing for a very limited number of players (the players are all looking to get paid first)...  100 mil for a top class player is the norm, not the anomaly.

We're not in a world where 2-3 clubs can afford that number... we're talking 20 and rising.

Milan, Madrid, Bayern, Juve, etc. didn't become the clubs that they are for any other reason that they were the richest and could pay the most.  Well that's disappeared.

Nor sure why these simple economics are so hard to understand.

Let's take Lukaku for example... who everyone thought was a bust for Man U.  He cost 100 mil... and he was sold for 100 mil to Inter.

Neymar will fetch near as much as he cost.

Mbappe is going to fetch far more than he cost.

Pogba will fetch the 100 mil he cost when he transfers.

PSG was willing to value Dembele at 100 mil and use that in a Neymar deal this past summer; but Dembele refused.  He's still young enough that, despite his more recent injury, Dembele will still fetch 50+ mil if he's sold this summer.

Morata and Coutinho are the only truly horrible deals.  Although Coutinho may still salvage something. Both those deals were made, btw, because that was the market. CFs are in very short supply so Chelsea took the risk. Barca were desperate for an Iniesta/Neymar replacement and went for Coutinho/Dembele.
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Post by Perucho21 Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:23 pm

Varnagel wrote:Real Madrid won only 2 LaLiga titles during 2010s decade.

Meanwhile, Barcelona have 7 LaLiga titles and Atletico de Madrid have 1 LaLiga title.

It's fair to say the club grossly underachieved in spite of winning 4 Champions League.



This is an interesting post when you look at the decade from an Atletico and Barca standpoint. Barcelona has enjoyed dominance in La Liga they haven't seen a long time, but if I'm being honest, in the CL they were underwhelming. Only winning 2 out of 10 possible CL's when you have the great Lionel Messi and world-class players (along with dominance in their own league) is not a good look. I am not sure how Barca fans feel, but I tend to believe they also feel they should have won way more CL's, especially with prime Messi. So in short, Real and Barca might be opposite in terms of their decade review. (Real great in CL, weak in LL, Barca great in LL, weak in CL) I hope Barca fans can shed some light as to how they feel.

As for Atletico, I would say they had the best decade out of the big three when you consider their position in the previous decade. Back then, they were Real's whipping boys and could only dream of winning La Liga, even winning the UCL was considered impossible. Not only they did win La Liga but they were seconds and a penalty shootout away from winning CL. Because of that, I would say Atletico had a great decade despite the heartbreak of losing those finals and the slow period they are experience now.

futbol_bill wrote:You guys! I dare say the expectations here are unrealistic. This past decade has been the greatest ever for this incredible club. The 4 CLs in 5 years is indisputable as the greatest achievement ever for any club. Sure it would have been great to have more Ligas or even Copa, but these are lessor competitions. It is practically impossible to be capturing trophies in more than one competition. Barca obviously concentrates on one and we on the other. The only way to consistently capture both is to have two teams. As long as the coaching philosophy is to have a set 11 and only use backups when necessary, you have to change the expectations to accept the concentration on a single trophy pursuit.


I can't agree with this Bill. I don't think it's because we don't concentrate in La Liga, we definitely do, in fact, there are 3 managers where you can argue that we fired because of poor Liga results despite having good results in the UCL (Lope, Carlo, Rafa).

It's not impossible to compete on all fronts. Barcelona did it in 2015, and should have in 2011 if we didn't defeat them in CDR. The problem was inconsistency, not relying on backups (other than 2017 where we should have won the treble) and competing against a great team with a phenomenal player.
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Post by futbol_bill Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:59 am

Well, maybe I do look at it differently than most!

If I compare to other clubs, I'm satisfied. If i compare to past decades, only the 50s comes close, but that was a different era, everything completely different.
.

It just seems to me, you guys expect perfection and realistically that isn’t possible in today’s futbol. I still say you can’t win multiple competitions if the coaching philosophy is to play the same 12- 15 in all competitions.
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Post by chad4401 Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:58 pm

Varnagel wrote:Real Madrid won only 2 LaLiga titles during 2010s decade.

Meanwhile, Barcelona have 7 LaLiga titles and Atletico de Madrid have 1 LaLiga title.

It's fair to say the club grossly underachieved in spite of winning 4 Champions League.


I tend to agree with this those 4 CL titles saved a lot of legacies, the main reason why the club didn't win more la liga is because of cr and his selfish Stat padding, this is pretty obvious that why I never bought into his goals, cause his goals are for personal reasons like golden boots and best player awards, the club lost out on a lot of la liga races because he consistently came up short in big moments.

Anyway those 4 CL which is a massive achievement for the club, made up for the lack of la liga titles imo, I know cool to pretend nowadays that la liga>CL, but a trophy any trophy after a long season should be appreciated.

Once the club completely rebuild the squad, I hope never ever see another cr7 type scenario, don't care how good the player is 11>1 and proper team work is needed to win la liga.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:52 pm

It's not because of CR that we didn't win more La Liga titles ffs.  Stop that.  If anything, it's because Benzema, Bale, Ozil and Di Maria were so inconsistent.  

The other issue was that, despite being great in big games and in CL, Marcelo and Ramos are absolute calamities over a La Liga season defensively for half the decade in the case of Ramos and all but 3 seasons for Marcelo.

Other reason is that Barca buy the best players at the positions of need at whatever cost.  Some flop.  But it doesn't stop them from buying the absolute best players.  We keep trying to get good deals or develop youth.  That will never fly if you have a Barca facing you.
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Post by Thimmy Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:04 pm

I’m loving this two-way monologue between Chad and Vartard. Dedication rofl
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Post by titosantill Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:29 pm

Simple question for Mr chad, if cr cost us all those league titles, who was responsible for us winning those UCLs. Cos cr pretty much played the exact same in the ucl. Quit that narrative, I'm paraphrasing cr, but if everyone played like him, we wud have won more. He was right when he made that statement
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Post by sportsczy Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:10 pm

CR played every game hungry...  all of them.  I didn't like the way he played during the first half of his time at Madrid because he completely ignored the rest of the team and the cost us in big games.  He was a horrible big game player until roughly 2014.  

Despite that, even during his crazy selfish years, he did much more good than harm obviously.  The red cards by Pepe and Ramos were the big culprits during those years... to go along with the wonderful midfield of Alonso-Khedira or Lass-Alonso and Ozil playing AM.  We literally had no chance there when you had Xavi-Busquets-Iniesta.  

Also, Messi-Alves-Pedro attacking the side with Marcelo-Alonso-Ramos was a shitshow too.  Not to mention Khedira-Arbeloa-Pepe trying to stop Iniesta-Abidal-Villa... Ozil, CR and Benzema/Higuain contributing nothing on defense = Was it even a surprise that we mostly couldn't compete?
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Post by Thimmy Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:41 pm

The Graneros, Illaramendis and Albiols certainly didn’t help our chances of winning the league either. I still have nightmares from watching Albiol having to step in for an injured Pepe during two El Clasicos in a row. I think you’re spot on in your assessment of CR’s contribution to our team, Sports. It’s a shame he wasn’t as effective as he’s been in the later years of his career, when he was at his physical peak.
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Post by alexjanosik Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:53 am

Perucho21 wrote:
Varnagel wrote:Real Madrid won only 2 LaLiga titles during 2010s decade.

Meanwhile, Barcelona have 7 LaLiga titles and Atletico de Madrid have 1 LaLiga title.

It's fair to say the club grossly underachieved in spite of winning 4 Champions League.



This is an interesting post when you look at the decade from an Atletico and Barca standpoint. Barcelona has enjoyed dominance in La Liga they haven't seen a long time, but if I'm being honest, in the CL they were underwhelming. Only winning 2 out of 10 possible CL's when you have the great Lionel Messi and world-class players (along with dominance in their own league) is not a good look. I am not sure how Barca fans feel, but I tend to believe they also feel they should have won way more CL's, especially with prime Messi. So in short, Real and Barca might be opposite in terms of their decade review. (Real great in CL, weak in LL, Barca great in LL, weak in CL) I hope Barca fans can shed some light as to how they feel.

As for Atletico, I would say they had the best decade out of the big three when you consider their position in the previous decade. Back then, they were Real's whipping boys and could only dream of winning La Liga, even winning the UCL was considered impossible. Not only they did win La Liga but they were seconds and a penalty shootout away from winning CL. Because of that, I would say Atletico had a great decade despite the heartbreak of losing those finals and the slow period they are experience now.

futbol_bill wrote:You guys! I dare say the expectations here are unrealistic. This past decade has been the greatest ever for this incredible club. The 4 CLs in 5 years is indisputable as the greatest achievement ever for any club. Sure it would have been great to have more Ligas or even Copa, but these are lessor competitions. It is practically impossible to be capturing trophies in more than one competition. Barca obviously concentrates on one and we on the other. The only way to consistently capture both is to have two teams. As long as the coaching philosophy is to have a set 11 and only use backups when necessary, you have to change the expectations to accept the concentration on a single trophy pursuit.


I can't agree with this Bill. I don't think it's because we don't concentrate in La Liga, we definitely do, in fact, there are 3 managers where you can argue that we fired because of poor Liga results despite having good results in the UCL (Lope, Carlo, Rafa).

It's not impossible to compete on all fronts. Barcelona did it in 2015, and should have in 2011 if we didn't defeat them in CDR. The problem was inconsistency, not relying on backups (other than 2017 where we should have won the treble) and competing against a great team with a phenomenal player.


I think we definitely under achieved in the CL. There were 3 seasons where I think we absolutely should have won. 2012 when we lost to Chelsea. Still cant believe we didnt win. Stupid Masch. 2016 after the treble season. We were the best team in the world. MSN was overworked and a stupid obsession with the worthless Copa trophy cost us. Finally, last season. Criminal that we let go of a 3-0 lead.

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Post by futbol_bill Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:41 pm

How about a comparison of this decade to previous decades for Real Madrid or comparison to what was achieved for other top clubs.

Over a decade there will always be disappointments, but if you look at what was achieved, I dare say we were better than any other club and only the 1950s come anywhere close as best decade ever for our club.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:19 pm

70s and 80s, we won 5 La Liga titles in each of those decades.  From 1997-2007, we won 3 CLs and 4 La Liga titles.

To me, 4 CLs and 2 La Liga titles is similar to those 3 eras.  Definitely a good era...  but nothing really unusual because we were so poor in La Liga.  If we had managed even 1 more La Liga title, then you'd have an argument.

HOWEVER, if you take a 5 year period... then the 4 CLs and 1 La Liga is the best since the 50s. But not over a 10 year period.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:14 pm

Wait what? Winning 2 ligas + 4 CLs, 3 in a row is exceptional. Amazing, never done before, unprecedented, record setting achievement in a decade. This is not a conversation it's a fact. What kind of standard do you hold this team to? It could always be better but what we did was phenomenal.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:30 pm

3 CLs in modern era was never done before.  Winning 3 European cups was done before...  3 times I think.  Bayern, Ajax and Madrid.  You also had Liverpool winning 4 CL in 8 years.  Milan had 3 in 6 (made 2 other finals they lost in 7 years during that period).  Etc.

The difference between those teams and this Real Madrid was they won a lot more league titles during their CL runs.

So, yes, our run was extremely good.  Historic in terms of CL.  But in terms of every competition, La Liga results brought us down from being one of the historic greats tbh.
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Post by Doc Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:06 pm

titosantill wrote:Simple question for Mr chad, if cr cost us all those league titles, who was responsible for us winning those UCLs. Cos cr pretty much played the exact same in the ucl. Quit that narrative, I'm paraphrasing cr, but if everyone played like him, we wud have won more. He was right when he made that statement

Let me answer this as Chad can't read: Benzema with no help from Isco or anyone else as it was an agenda against him.
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Post by Doc Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:08 pm

Mr Nick09 wrote:Wait what? Winning 2 ligas + 4 CLs, 3 in a row is exceptional. Amazing, never done before, unprecedented, record setting achievement in a decade. This is not a conversation it's a fact. What kind of standard do you hold this team to? It could always be better but what we did was phenomenal.

4 CLs is exceptional, almost unbelievable. 2 La Liga titles in 10 years for Real Madrid is dog shit. That cannot be played down, no way.
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Post by Perucho21 Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:58 pm

futbol_bill wrote:Well, maybe I do look at it differently than most!

If I compare to other clubs, I'm satisfied. If i compare to past decades, only the 50s comes close, but that was a different era, everything completely different.
.

It just seems to me, you guys expect perfection and realistically that isn’t possible in today’s futbol. I still say you can’t win multiple competitions if the coaching philosophy is to play the same 12- 15 in all competitions.


No i agree that we had a great decade despite what others are saying, although it is true our La Liga count this decade is alarming. However as I said that came down to things i've mentioned. Inconsistency of our own players and competition from two world class teams (when in the previos decade we were used to one or none at all) hindered our La Liga campaigns. La Liga is a season long competition and it honestly needs to be dealt with if we are going to compete year after year this decade.

alexjanosik wrote:
Perucho21 wrote:
Varnagel wrote:Real Madrid won only 2 LaLiga titles during 2010s decade.

Meanwhile, Barcelona have 7 LaLiga titles and Atletico de Madrid have 1 LaLiga title.

It's fair to say the club grossly underachieved in spite of winning 4 Champions League.



This is an interesting post when you look at the decade from an Atletico and Barca standpoint. Barcelona has enjoyed dominance in La Liga they haven't seen a long time, but if I'm being honest, in the CL they were underwhelming. Only winning 2 out of 10 possible CL's when you have the great Lionel Messi and world-class players (along with dominance in their own league) is not a good look. I am not sure how Barca fans feel, but I tend to believe they also feel they should have won way more CL's, especially with prime Messi. So in short, Real and Barca might be opposite in terms of their decade review. (Real great in CL, weak in LL, Barca great in LL, weak in CL) I hope Barca fans can shed some light as to how they feel.

As for Atletico, I would say they had the best decade out of the big three when you consider their position in the previous decade. Back then, they were Real's whipping boys and could only dream of winning La Liga, even winning the UCL was considered impossible. Not only they did win La Liga but they were seconds and a penalty shootout away from winning CL. Because of that, I would say Atletico had a great decade despite the heartbreak of losing those finals and the slow period they are experience now.

futbol_bill wrote:You guys! I dare say the expectations here are unrealistic. This past decade has been the greatest ever for this incredible club. The 4 CLs in 5 years is indisputable as the greatest achievement ever for any club. Sure it would have been great to have more Ligas or even Copa, but these are lessor competitions. It is practically impossible to be capturing trophies in more than one competition. Barca obviously concentrates on one and we on the other. The only way to consistently capture both is to have two teams. As long as the coaching philosophy is to have a set 11 and only use backups when necessary, you have to change the expectations to accept the concentration on a single trophy pursuit.


I can't agree with this Bill. I don't think it's because we don't concentrate in La Liga, we definitely do, in fact, there are 3 managers where you can argue that we fired because of poor Liga results despite having good results in the UCL (Lope, Carlo, Rafa).

It's not impossible to compete on all fronts. Barcelona did it in 2015, and should have in 2011 if we didn't defeat them in CDR. The problem was inconsistency, not relying on backups (other than 2017 where we should have won the treble) and competing against a great team with a phenomenal player.


I think we definitely under achieved in the CL. There were 3 seasons where I think we absolutely should have won. 2012 when we lost to Chelsea. Still cant believe we didnt win. Stupid Masch. 2016 after the treble season. We were the best team in the world. MSN was overworked and a stupid obsession with the worthless Copa trophy cost us. Finally, last season. Criminal that we let go of a 3-0 lead.


Interesting you mentioned 2016 as I forgot. I had 2012, 2018 and 2019 should have won but 2016 is also another year where Barcelona underachieved.
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Post by NeganIsco Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:34 am

tbf. some of the league losses of RM, were very close call affairs.
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Post by Thimmy Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:52 am

Our last league win was, as well. The football we played during the first half of that season was possibly the most frustrating I’ve ever seen from Real Madrid. We didn’t lose, but it made my eyes bleed. We improved massively after the turn of the year, and Barca conveniently collapsed at the same time. It doesn’t matter if they’re close victories or not, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. It’s not a coincidence that Barca have been more consistent in the league than us. Generally speaking, they have been more consistent and their brand of football has been more sustainable.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:40 pm

Doc wrote:
Mr Nick09 wrote:Wait what? Winning 2 ligas + 4 CLs, 3 in a row is exceptional. Amazing, never done before, unprecedented, record setting achievement in a decade. This is not a conversation it's a fact. What kind of standard do you hold this team to? It could always be better but what we did was phenomenal.

4 CLs is exceptional, almost unbelievable. 2 La Liga titles in 10 years for Real Madrid is dog shit. That cannot be played down, no way.
both things did not happen in isolation though, so regardless of what you think about the league records, what we achieved in CL on top of at least winning 2 Liga remains an historically great feat
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Post by Doc Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:25 pm

If the club and those who manage have that same mentality, I should prepare my mind, body and soul for more inconsistent La Liga performance. But hey, historically great feat and all that.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:32 pm

You damn well know we are more ambitious than that. But when you throw the dices and you get 4 CLs and 2 Ligas in 10 years, that's pretty exceptional. The mindset is always to do what we can to win everything, specially la Liga.
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