Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

by breva Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:24 pm

i don't think it has anything to do with Pep. He is probably one of the 3-4 best there is at the moment.

by The Demon of Carthage Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:27 pm

I don't think the score reflects the reality of things. 4-0 is a demolition, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have scored as much or even won, hadn't Bravo started the train wreck.

Now I know, "could've, would've, hadn't,..." are all excuses wrapped around past unreal conditional, and at the end of the day, the result matters more than anything. But I thought Barça weren't that impressive, and they didn't actually display a masterclass in football.

I saw a guy who got his tactics spot-on at the Camp Nou, but after a series of unfortunate events which he had no control over, ended up losing the game.

Now, understand, that I'm not actually making excuses for him. If this was Madrid, I would still be furious. But I would also try to be fair enough not to lay all the blame on him.

I'm also not belittling Barcelona's victory. Obviously, they deserved to win. But I just think their overall display, especially prior to Bravo's inexcusable mistake, wasn't worthy of a 4-nil victory.

by Winter is Coming Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:12 pm

Pep Guardiola right now

by Glory Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:48 am

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/manchester-city-legends-sergio-aguero-9091248

First Hart, now Kun and Kompany. Pep getting rid of all dem fan favorites and club legends like its nothing. :bow:

Where will Aguero move next season tho I wonder. Arsenal ? PSG too will come like mad for him I assume.

by rincon Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:51 am

he could finally go to madrid.

by Lucifer Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:53 am

If Mourinho was my teams manager the last thing I would mock about opponent would be "getting rid of fan favourites". That's boomerang, not any boomerang but Mowgli's boomerang.

by urbaNRoots Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:26 am

Poor Pep, he totally got screwed by a player who he bought himself to replace a club favourite. That's totally on everyone else but Pep.

by Hapless_Hans Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:36 am

urbaNRoots wrote:Poor Pep, he totally got screwed by a player who he bought himself to replace a club favourite. That's totally on everyone else but Pep.

Why always the vitriol and the shadow boxing?
It's really interesting that you guys keep fighting arguments that aren't there, and continue to move the goal posts like that.

Who, ever, said "poor" Pep? Who said he isn't responsible for bringing in Bravo?

It's clear though that it's nonsense to blame Bravo's mistake on Pep's tactics, right?

Yesterday, the BT commentators, as probably is happening weekly now, again ranted how the latest thing with the GKs having to be good with their feet is nonsense and look where it got City with Bravo..

As if Bravo's mistake, and red card, was due to him being GOOD with his feet Laughing

It was down to him being bad with his feet.

But never mind logic, keep hating.

by urbaNRoots Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:11 am

Hapless_Hans wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:Poor Pep, he totally got screwed by a player who he bought himself to replace a club favourite. That's totally on everyone else but Pep.

Why always the vitriol and the shadow boxing?
It's really interesting that you guys keep fighting arguments that aren't there, and continue to move the goal posts like that.

Who, ever, said "poor" Pep? Who said he isn't responsible for bringing in Bravo?

It's clear though that it's nonsense to blame Bravo's mistake on Pep's tactics, right?

Yesterday, the BT commentators, as probably is happening weekly now, again ranted how the latest thing with the GKs having to be good with their feet is nonsense and look where it got City with Bravo..

As if Bravo's mistake, and red card, was due to him being GOOD with his feet
It was down to him being bad with his feet.

But never mind logic, keep hating.

Arguments that aren't there? All I've read on GL since the game is how Bravo is the reason City lost the game, but convienently forget to mention the fact that it was Pep who bought him in the first place and that Pep is responsible for his players (especially signings) just like every other manager is.

Bravo's mistake can be blamed on Pep's tactics for sure. It's Pep who encourages his goalkeepers to pass under pressure instead of clearing the ball, I mean it's so important for build play right? So in that situation Bravo tried to impress his manager and messed up. It's absolutely not his fault alone, he does not do such dumb shit for his national team so it's on Pep too.

by Glory Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:18 am

Hapless_Hans wrote:
It was down to him being bad with his feet.

But never mind logic, keep hating.

It was down to him being bad, period. Better than Hart, but bad nevertheless.

And what's wrong in saying poor Pep got screwed by his blunders? You are waaaaay too protective of the man these days Hans and way too uptight too in general. Just chill ffs. Instead concentrate on your own manager for once. Pep was your past. HE'S NOT YOURS ANYMORE!! :coffee:

by Hapless_Hans Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:23 am

urbaNRoots wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:Poor Pep, he totally got screwed by a player who he bought himself to replace a club favourite. That's totally on everyone else but Pep.

Why always the vitriol and the shadow boxing?
It's really interesting that you guys keep fighting arguments that aren't there, and continue to move the goal posts like that.

Who, ever, said "poor" Pep? Who said he isn't responsible for bringing in Bravo?

It's clear though that it's nonsense to blame Bravo's mistake on Pep's tactics, right?

Yesterday, the BT commentators, as probably is happening weekly now, again ranted how the latest thing with the GKs having to be good with their feet is nonsense and look where it got City with Bravo..

As if Bravo's mistake, and red card, was due to him being GOOD with his feet
It was down to him being bad with his feet.

But never mind logic, keep hating.

Arguments that aren't there? All I've read on GL since the game is how Bravo is the reason City lost the game, but convienently forget to mention the fact that it was Pep who bought him in the first place and that Pep is responsible for his players (especially signings) just like every other manager is.

Bravo's mistake can be blamed on Pep's tactics for sure. It's Pep who encourages his goalkeepers to pass under pressure instead of clearing the ball, I mean it's so important for build play right? So in that situation Bravo tried to impress his manager and messed up. It's absolutely not his fault alone, he does not do such dumb shit for his national team so it's on Pep too.

Of course ultimately Pep is responsible. And I'm happy that he lost, too. However, in that situation Bravo wasn't even that much under pressure. He just made an absolutely terrible pass.

OF COURSE you are required to ba able to make such passes when you're playing for a top possession team. Neuer made hundreds of passes under more pressure during Pep's Bayern time and never made such a mistake.

I find it irritating that mistakes when passing out of the back get blamed on the system itself. It's like what Jay said with the zonal marking. If teams concede a goal when zonal marking it's pointed out, as if that was the reason.

by urbaNRoots Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:34 am

You are right that the system is not wrong, of course everyone would love an all around team that can pass, dribble, shoot and do everything but in reality that is not possible and when it does go wrong you have to take responsibility.

I'm pretty sure even Pep himself knows that he is responsible for every loss but his fans somehow can't admit that his ways can be wrong just as they can be right.

by Hapless_Hans Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:43 am

urbaNRoots wrote:You are right that the system is not wrong, of course everyone would love an all around team that can pass, dribble, shoot and do everything but in reality that is not possible and when it does go wrong you have to take responsibility.

I'm pretty sure even Pep himself knows that he is responsible for every loss but his fans somehow can't admit that his ways can be wrong just as they can be right.

His ways are not wrong though, at least not from a tactical point of view.

But of course, ousting Hart for Bravo was a massive call and massively risky.
It's the English NT GK of course, so the public is switched on 100%, an then the whole thing circles around an issue which seems to be hugely sensitive in England (the whole playing with the feet vs good old English style thing which seems to remain logged in their heads for some inexplicable reason).

So if Bravo continues to make blunders like he's doing, the whole thing will be a massive own goal and blunder by Pep himself, and cause him huge problems on the public perception front on top of whatever games are lost.

Obviously I'm rooting for Joe Hart here.

by rincon Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:47 am

What are the chances that Hart signs for Torino? he is on loan right?

Things are going well for him and the team.

by Hapless_Hans Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:50 am

One should think they are very slim if I imagine the wages Hart is on.

by titosantill Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:22 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
As if Bravo's mistake, and red card, was due to him being GOOD with his feet
It was down to him being bad with his feet.

But never mind logic, keep hating.

rubbish. what commentators are ranting about is the unnecessary risk being taken. the fad about goalies and feet. the idea of being "good" with your feet that has been championed suggests that rather than blasting the ball out, the goalie take the unnecessary risk of playing it to his defender to maintain possession. ironically, these so called "good with their feet" goalies, make the gaffes they make because of that unnecessary risk taken.

on the other hand, those who hardly try that rubbish of attempting to be outfield players, are unfairly deemed as poor or not comfortable with using their feet. passing to the nearest defender takes very little skill, i bet many of the old school goalies can do that, they just deem it an unnecessary risk, and choose to blast that sucker out instead

and the fault was down primarily to bravo not his coach. at the end of the day the coach is on the sidelines, bravo is expected to use his discretion and not rush out like a mad man. and even then, clear the ball out, not pass. even if the defender received the pass, there's pressure from the attackers on him, and the goalie out of position....keepers should keep, defenders defend

just reminds me of when as kids because the goalies got bored they'd want to do all that extra stuff

by titosantill Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:28 pm

btw hart has little to laugh at in this scenario. hart had many gaffes of his own, in fairness, his gaffes to me where more pronounced as they applied to the basic expectations of goal keepers. if bravo stops the shenanigans and quits trying to be an outfield player, he'll probably be good for city

i doubt he'll stop it, i remember a story xavi told about how valdes (a goalie who i don't rate), made one of these "ball with feet" errors, and guardiola (not sure if it was guardiola or frank, one of them) told him he still should not clear the ball out, but stick to passing it. i doubt the skillset is of any help to him these days

by urbaNRoots Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:00 pm

titosantill wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:
As if Bravo's mistake, and red card, was due to him being GOOD with his feet
It was down to him being bad with his feet.

But never mind logic, keep hating.

rubbish. what commentators are ranting about is the unnecessary risk being taken. the fad about goalies and feet. the idea of being "good" with your feet that has been championed suggests that rather than blasting the ball out, the goalie take the unnecessary risk of playing it to his defender to maintain possession. ironically, these so called "good with their feet" goalies, make the gaffes they make because of that unnecessary risk taken.

on the other hand, those who hardly try that rubbish of attempting to be outfield players, are unfairly deemed as poor or not comfortable with using their feet. passing to the nearest defender takes very little skill, i bet many of the old school goalies can do that, they just deem it an unnecessary risk, and choose to blast that sucker out instead

and the fault was down primarily to bravo not his coach. at the end of the day the coach is on the sidelines, bravo is expected to use his discretion and not rush out like a mad man. and even then, clear the ball out, not pass. even if the defender received the pass, there's pressure from the attackers on him, and the goalie out of position....keepers should keep, defenders defend

just reminds me of when as kids because the goalies got bored they'd want to do all that extra stuff

Bravo should've cleared the ball even though his manager clearly instructs him not to? That's what Hart did and he was benched for an inferior GK (Caballero). Bravo did the mistake but he should not be blamed alone when he is clearly not comfortable with Pep's idea of how a GK should do the job.

by Winter is Coming Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:25 pm

So you think Pep forbids his GK from kicking the ball out? It's not like Bravo didn't do that this season, nor ter Stegen, Neuer or Valdes under Pep.

Here's Pep quote after the game, Guardiola “There are moments you have to kick the ball out."

"he is clearly not comfortable with Pep's idea of how a GK should do the job."

He clearly played like that with us the same way and hence why Pep wanted him Laughing

by BarcaLearning Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:38 pm

titosantill wrote:@learning, tough for any team to play well with ten men, especially when the side they're playing are already better 11 vs 11. with ten men and even results, you can try and duke it out on defense. with ten men and down a goal, you're between a rock and a hard place, especially with managers like wenger, pep who like attacking, and can't fathom the idea of playing defense when down a goal in a non-two legged elimination tie

the goalkeeper thing is what irritates me about so called "innovative-ness" that people try to sell. guess what, if you're not able to use your feet, you're most likely to play it safe and not have these kind of blunders.....you'll have blunders, every goalie does, but not these foolish ones.

and the goalies (who don't usually use their feet) that have had blunders with respect to backpasses, didn't have those blunders because they couldn't use their feet, many of them have it because of absentmindedness....you don't need to have the skills of maradona to blast a back pass off the park and out of reach. didn't know where else to post this goalie rant of mine.

but its getting foolish, soon defenders would be asked to score at least 8 goals a season, and defensive mids asked to dribble. stick to what you know how to do, and don't try and be a hero, especially not in your defensive end. dribbling the striker isn't getting you a goal or assist

Thats right, in that its like how Barca used to frustrate me at times under Pep, when they didnt have a plan B, and too stubbornly stick to their game when it was clearly not working at times, or despite being countered by opponent at times, continued to play the same way instead of changing. People praise thats sticking to his style but it just goes too far at times. Maybe he will change things a bit and let Bravo choose to boot it out at times if it is too dangerous to play it, lets hope Razz

by urbaNRoots Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:38 pm

Pep doesn't forbid it but he absolutely encourages it. Hence the birth of Victor Valdes and his ilk.

If he'd told his GK to simply clear the ball when he's outside the box he'd do it unless you think Bravo, Valdes, ter Stegen and Neuer are idiots who don't listen to their bosses.

by Winter is Coming Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:49 pm

urbaNRoots wrote:Pep doesn't forbid it but he absolutely encourages it. Hence the birth of Victor Valdes and his ilk.

If he'd told his GK to simply clear the ball when he's outside the box he'd do it unless you think Bravo, Valdes, ter Stegen and Neuer are idiots who don't listen to their bosses.

Yes, he does prefer the GK to play the ball.

Guardiola “There are moments you have to kick the ball out."

Clearly understands sometimes keeper needs to clear the ball.

by Onyx Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:05 pm

Don't see anything wrong with GK's passing the ball out if that's what's best for the style of play. Having a clean build up from the back is necessary for Pep's philosophy. Hoofing the ball doesn't achieve that.

Other styles require the GK to take less risks and that's fine. There's no right or wrong way.

by titosantill Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:33 pm

you can have a clean build up from the back without the goalie getting involved. his role isn't as crucial as its made out to be.. it will just mean the cb passing out to the wing-back, the other cb, or the dm. my point has never been to say its wrong, a team can do what they want. but when it starts becoming a criteria for rating goalies, i find that appalling....but that's just me. i don't see how it even helps the goalies technique in the grand scheme of things....valdes hasn't become a better goalie outside of barcelona because of it

by Donuts Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:02 pm

valdes got a season long injury and declined with age but yeah perfect example i guess Rolling Eyes

and idk about manchester city, but when teams press barca, they don't press just the midfield but the DMs and centerbacks.. thats why its crucial for MaTS to be able to find the pass and not pass the responsibility to pique / mascherano etc.

by titosantill Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:52 pm

iker wasn't exactly what you'll consider a goalie who uses his feet but that didn't cause any problems when spain was winning. and when iker declined it was his general goal keeping that messed him up...being able to use his feet would not have saved him. valdes is a different issue, never rated the guy.

people do what they want, my point is that it shouldn't be a criteria for rating or discussing goalies. i actually think city was right to go with someone else over hart, but that's cos hart was prone to keeping errors with his hands, which i consider more important....agree to disagree, we all have our opinions lol i think i've exhausted this topic, and when i think of it, it should probably have had its separate thread than on here

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