Re: French Prime Minister Valls opens the door for Barca to join Ligue 1

by futbol_bill Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:05 pm

Do you have any economic / finance knowledge? Continue with your illusions, your arguments lack any financial basis.

Bottom line is you will be in very poor economic conditions if you ever do get independence, whether you want to accept that or not. And that will have an effect on your beloved Barca.

You seem certain that you are getting your independence, just like you proclaimed the election was all about getting your independence, when in fact it was a regional election with 3 parties saying they would use the election results to pursue getting independence. Which one of us is telling the truth?

Your pursuit continues, but in no way can you say that the independence is definitely happening. It is you and others that keep making your false statements that started this thread in the first place. I'm just correcting the fiction!

by Doc Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:09 pm

Honestly, neither old man Bill nor Free is "embarrassing" themselves in my humble opinion. You both would know what is happening or what you perceive is happening. Enjoying the back and forth happening here.

by eelir Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:39 pm

I am sorry but if you have 48% of people openly proclaiming they want independence and only 39% opposing it openly, you have little claim in saying the majority does not want independence. It is much more conceivable that 3% of the undeclared will vote towards independence (making it 51% yes) than 11% of them to say no (making it 51% no)!

In any way, I would not want La liga to lose Barca, because the rivalry with RM is what makes both clubs great. But in case Barca move to French league, I think considering PSG money, Barca will still have good competition, while RM will have to wait for the competition to build up in Spain, even more so considering that many sponsors will go away with Barca to League 1.

by futbol_bill Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:53 pm

In most votes of this nature a 51% vote is not enough to create independence. That means that half the population is not in favour of it. These guys have been proclaiming that the vast majority want it, yet 48 % does not indicate that. Also there are many negative effects of separation that would be openly discussed before such a vote ... such as .....the Societat Civil Catalana, argues that secession would lead to the destruction of up to 447,000 jobs, 34.4% unemployment, and a loss of €20 billion in foreign direct investment.

I'm not debating on what the vote, if it were ever allowed, would be (and only the Catalans doing so), I'm simply stating that any independence is not imminent as has been suggested here.

by Guest Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:10 pm

PSG are 10 points clear....in October.

Ligue un is dead.

by sportsczy Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:27 am

They have an extra game on the others.... But you're right. PSG has no competition this season.

by Lord Spencer Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:50 am

sportsczy wrote:They have an extra game on the others.... But you're right. PSG has no competition this season.

Did you lose a sig bet sports rofl

by Doc Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:18 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
sportsczy wrote:They have an extra game on the others.... But you're right. PSG has no competition this season.

Did you lose a sig bet sports

Yes he did Proud

by futbol_bill Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:07 pm

The independence pursuit continues, but here’s some recent articles that clearly demonstrate that Free Cat’s claims of an overwhelming majority and that any independence is imminent are clearly not true.

In fact, a recent opinion polls, “have shown most Catalans would like to remain within Spain if the region were offered a more favourable tax regime and laws that protect its language and culture.”

And I repeat again that all of this is without general education to the general public of true economic consequences of separation.

We now have all of Spain’s main parties, not just the PP and Rajoy, the European Union and the head of the UN all stating that Catalonia separation is illegal and will not be supported, by Spain, by EU nor by the UN.

https://www.rt.com/news/320294-catalonia-independence-ban-un/

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151101/1029426048/spain-catalonia-un-chief-rejection.html

http://www.thelocal.es/20151031/spains-main-parties-strike-unity-pact-against-catalonia-separatists

by Mr Nick09 Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:18 pm

Can this go to the political section? Lol

by free_cat Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:13 am

futbol_bill wrote:Do you have any economic / finance knowledge? Continue with your illusions, your arguments lack any financial basis.

Bottom line is you will be in very poor economic conditions if you ever do get independence, whether you want to accept that or not. And that will have an effect on your beloved Barca.

You seem certain that you are getting your independence, just like you proclaimed the election was all about getting your independence, when in fact it was a regional election with 3 parties saying they would use the election results to pursue getting independence. Which one of us is telling the truth?

Your pursuit continues, but in no way can you say that the independence is definitely happening. It is you and others that keep making your false statements that started this thread in the first place. I'm just correcting the fiction!

Listen dude, if you say that we'd lose the Euro, you have no credibility. Everything you say is bullshit.

Quoting Societat Civil Catalana, a lobby against catalan independence with only 600 members. Laughing

Do you really believe that an independent Catalonia would have 34,4% of unemployment? The highest in the world? Laughing

I repeat, according to anti-independentist Montoro, minister of finance, Catalonia pays 8.000 milion euro per year more than it receives in services from the State. Funny how you stop talking about this now.

I can't say for sure if we'll get independnece because Spain lacks democratic attitudes and they will try anything to stop us, but we'll go all in.

by free_cat Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:15 am

futbol_bill wrote:In most votes of this nature a 51% vote is not enough to create independence. That means that half the population is not in favour of it. These guys have been proclaiming that the vast majority want it, yet 48 % does not indicate that. Also there are many negative effects of separation that would be openly discussed before such a vote ... such as .....the Societat Civil Catalana, argues that secession would lead to the destruction of up to 447,000 jobs, 34.4% unemployment, and a loss of €20 billion in foreign direct investment.

I'm not debating on what the vote, if it were ever allowed, would be (and only the Catalans doing so), I'm simply stating that any independence is not imminent as has been suggested here.

False. Scotland voted recently on independence and they only needed 50,01%, Quebec, Montenegro and Sudan referendums the same. Obviously, a simple majority is enough, as you can't force a majority to obey a minority in democracy.

by free_cat Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:16 am

futbol_bill wrote:The independence pursuit continues, but here’s some recent articles that clearly demonstrate that Free Cat’s claims of an overwhelming majority and that any independence is imminent are clearly not true.

In fact, a recent opinion polls, “have shown most Catalans would like to remain within Spain if the region were offered a more favourable tax regime and laws that protect its language and culture.”

And I repeat again that all of this is without general education to the general public of true economic consequences of separation.

We now have all of Spain’s main parties, not just the PP and Rajoy, the European Union and the head of the UN all stating that Catalonia separation is illegal and will not be supported, by Spain, by EU nor by the UN.

https://www.rt.com/news/320294-catalonia-independence-ban-un/

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151101/1029426048/spain-catalonia-un-chief-rejection.html

http://www.thelocal.es/20151031/spains-main-parties-strike-unity-pact-against-catalonia-separatists

Elections >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> polls.

What counts is what happened in the elections, and in the elections independentism won. Sorry about that.

by futbol_bill Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:32 pm

You clearly don't have any economic / financial education.
Andorra and Montenegro were given permission to use the EU currency as was Panama and El Salvador the use of the USD. I didn't make that statement, the EU did!!!

As to contributing more then you receive, you have outlined taxes paid and the "operating budget". That does not take into account capital investments, particularly infrastructure nor some of the benefits you receive from the central government. - Just wait until you hear your portion of the debt!!

You don't seem to accept that major businesses intend to pull out of Barcelona if a separation ever occurred. You think that will not have an effect on your economy.

If it truly is the vast majority as you proclaim, why would you impose your will on 49% of the population?

So I guess you are now saying not only Rajoy, but all major parties, The EU and now the UN are lying!!! You have yet to have a legal valid referendum and thus the polls results are just as valid as this regional election that you are somehow interpreting as independence.

Getting back to Nick's comment and the point of this thread, the whole question is ridiculous as you will no doubt be fighting for this independence for the next 20 years.

by free_cat Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:04 pm

futbol_bill wrote:You clearly don't have any economic / financial education.
Andorra and Montenegro were given permission to use the EU currency as was Panama and El Salvador the use of the USD. I didn't make that statement, the EU did!!!

If the EU gave their permission, you will find on the internetet easily, right? Source or it is bullshit. I advance that you won't find any kind of permission because it is bullshit as any country can use the currency they want.

futbol_bill wrote:
As to contributing more then you receive, you have outlined taxes paid and the "operating budget". That does not take into account capital investments, particularly infrastructure nor some of the benefits you receive from the central government. - Just wait until you hear your portion of the debt!!

Fiscal deficit takes into account EVERYTHING. Every economical move. According to Spanish Revneue it's 8.000 milion per year, while other economists put it as high as 16.000 milion per year. Here, source again.

Also, you do realize that we will have to pay "our portion of the debt" either way, right? Being part of Spain, doesn't mean Catalonia doesn't pay debt, Lol.

futbol_bill wrote:
You don't seem to accept that major businesses intend to pull out of Barcelona if a separation ever occurred. You think that will not have an effect on your economy.

So far, they aren't pulling out massively. Perhaps some will, but surely others will come. Companies won't leave if they can make a profit, as they are doing nowadays. According to most economic studies, independence will go from neutral to benefiting catalan's economy. Independence in other countries went well for the economy. Montenegro got their independence in 2006, and look what happened:

French Prime Minister Valls opens the door for Barca to join Ligue 1 - Page 4 MNEG-Montenegro-GDP

French Prime Minister Valls opens the door for Barca to join Ligue 1 - Page 4 MNEG-Montenegro-GDP

They almost doubled their GDP in 3 years!

futbol_bill wrote: If it truly is the vast majority as you proclaim, why would you impose your will on 49% of the population?

So I guess you are now saying not only Rajoy, but all major parties, The EU and now the UN are lying!!! You have yet to have a legal valid referendum and thus the polls results are just as valid as this regional election that you are somehow interpreting as independence.

I'm never said there's a "vast majority", just a majority as the elections showed. We are not imposing our will on anyone. If these other people in Catalonia are democrats, as they are, they'll understand that they can't block what most of they fellow citizens want, and we'll make a new country where they feel at home too, something it doesn't happen nowadays with the majority of Catalans.

We would gladly have a legal valid referendum, but Spanish Government will never allow it, so this elections are the best we've got. And we won them. Deal with it.

by futbol_bill Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:32 pm

You seem fixed on getting in the last word in this self created illusion you have beset upon this forum.

It obvious you and I are not going to agree on anything on this subject. (Mods - if you are following this, I agree with Nick that this debate is better to be moved to the political section of this forum.)

Don’t take it from me, here is a direct quote from Forbes (a world leading financial paper).

“The reality is that an independent Catalonia would face a messy divorce from Spain. Under any independence agreement Catalonia’s economy would take a serious hit—Catalans would have to assume a significant part of Spain’s debt. This challenge would be further complicated by the need to find a currency other than the Euro, as Spain would veto Catalan membership in the monetary union. For that reason alone, not to mention political uncertainty, there would be a likely exodus of multinational and Spanish companies to other regions in Spain. An independent Catalonia would have a hard time getting NATO membership for the same reasons.”

You keep calling anything contrary to this independence movement, lies.

You are the one that is saying the vast majority (and yes you did say this, look back through your posts) have voted for independence when in fact it was nothing more than a regional election with Mas saying he will use the election results to pursue independence. you are ignoring what Rajoy and now the leaders of all the main parties, plus the head of EU and this week the head of the UN have said on this subject. The majority was 48%, not even half of the votes and that was disbursed over 3 parties who do not agree on a whole lot of items. Simply put, you are misleading this forum.

You also dismissed a recent poll that said that most Catalans would like to remain within Spain if they were offered a more favourable tax regime and laws that protect its language and culture.

When the general public get educated about the true financial implications of separation (for both Catalunya and Spain), the independence movement will likely begin winding down. It did for the Scots and some years ago, Quebec in Canada. Both of them as well as the Basque obtained exactly what most Catalans are asking for. That is a more likely outcome of this so called independence movement.

So back to the futbol questions in this thread and the other one you created, there will be no Catalan liga nor a Barca in ligue.

by free_cat Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:09 am

Forbes is just a magazine. They are entitled to haver their opinion, but reality, says that countries that became independent did well. I showed you Montenegro, here is the Chech Republic and Slovakia (dissolution in 1993):

French Prime Minister Valls opens the door for Barca to join Ligue 1 - Page 4 Gross_domestic_product_gdp_per_capita_usd_czech_republic_206693

French Prime Minister Valls opens the door for Barca to join Ligue 1 - Page 4 Gross_domestic_product_gdp_per_capita_usd_czech_republic_206693

French Prime Minister Valls opens the door for Barca to join Ligue 1 - Page 4 Gross_domestic_product_gdp_per_capita_usd_slovakia_213975

There are many other examples.

Also, they discredit themselves, as you do, when you say we couldn't use the Euro. You can't even give one reason why we couldn't use it as Andorra, San Marino, Montenegro, Liechestein, etc. do. No quotes from the EU from you = lies.

Again, if I said vast majority, you can quote me on that, though it doesn't really matter, the important thing is that we have a majority, and differently from Quebec, or Scotland, we already voted and we won, while they lost.

All this supposed "disasters" have already been "explained" (actually repeatedly pounded by air and sea) by spanish media and spanish politicians to catalans, and even then we voted for independence.

So it's settled and you'll either accept the result as democrats or you'll have to resort to violence to stop the peaceful and democratic will of catalan people. Your choice.

by El Messico Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:18 am

@futbol_bill, Forbes is not really an authority on economics. I read a lot of their articles and most of their opinions are pop-economics. I'd look at The Economist for serious opinions (even then they have their own biases), and I definitely recall reading a fair bit on Catalonian independence in their print editions. Just don't exactly recall their recommendation - I think they also favoured staying with Spain, but they also weren't completely convinced one way or the other.

In any case, the most important authority here should be the Catalonian people, just like the Quebecois in Quebec and the Scottish in Scotland. A referendum is one of the truest representations of democracy, and while they can be misguided in some cases, I don't feel democratically-elected governments should be allowed to squash them.

by sportsczy Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:34 pm

El Messico wrote:@futbol_bill, Forbes is not really an authority on economics. I read a lot of their articles and most of their opinions are pop-economics. I'd look at The Economist for serious opinions (even then they have their own biases), and I definitely recall reading a fair bit on Catalonian independence in their print editions. Just don't exactly recall their recommendation - I think they also favoured staying with Spain, but they also weren't completely convinced one way or the other.

In any case, the most important authority here should be the Catalonian people, just like the Quebecois in Quebec and the Scottish in Scotland. A referendum is one of the truest representations of democracy, and while they can be misguided in some cases, I don't feel democratically-elected governments should be allowed to squash them.

Well said

I'm always a week or two behind catching up on the Economist lol

by futbol_bill Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:09 pm

As I said earlier, the more likely outcome of this debate is that Rajoy or any successor will give them what they want,
a more favourable tax regime and laws that protect its language and culture, the same as was done for the Basque.

The answer to the futbol question in the op of this thread as well as the other similar thread is there will be no independence and thus La Liga will remain the same.

I'm done with this debate. At this point it is purely political.

I would love to debate the economics of this, but to do so would necessitate some knowledge of democracy laws and at least some basic economic education on both sides of the debate. It's extremely obvious that that does not exist on the other side.

by free_cat Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:28 pm

futbol_bill wrote:As I said earlier, the more likely outcome of this debate is that Rajoy or any successor will give them what they want,
a more favourable tax regime and laws that protect its language and culture, the same as was done for the Basque.

This is what Catalans wanted until 2010. Now it's too late. If Spain doesn't admit our right to self-determination, like Canada to Quebec or the UK to Scotland, it won't be enough. And btw, no offer at all has arrived in that direction, only disrespect.

futbol_bill wrote:
I would love to debate the economics of this, but to do so would necessitate some knowledge of democracy laws and at least some basic economic education on both sides of the debate. It's extremely obvious that that does not exist on the other side.

Some self-entitletement and petulance there. Clearly you think you know more and worth more than me. Typical Spanish.

I haven't said anything bad about you except when pointing very clear lies like we couldn't use the euro.
#Respect.

by futbol_bill Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:11 pm

No disrespect intended.

You have stated your opinion and I, mine, probably ad nauseam to the other members of this forum. Only time will tell, who is correct on where this will go. We obviously will never agree on anything.

My entire career was based on financial / economic knowledge and thus I do feel I know a thing or two about economics and currencies. You chose not to accept any of this nor statements made by heads of United Nations, European Union nor the Prime Minister of Spain and the leaders of the other major parties. You seem to simply want to say that they are either lies or just don't exist. But that's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to that.

by free_cat Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:38 am

The secretary of the United Nations hasn't said anything about catalan economics in case of independence, why are you making things up?

And Spain's PM and other spanish political leaders are not an objective party, off course they'll say we'd be worse off.

by free_cat Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:39 pm

It is begun:

The New York Times wrote:Catalonian Lawmakers Approve Plan for Secession From Spain

BARCELONA, Spain — The regional parliament of northeastern Catalonia approved a plan Monday to set up road map for independence from Spain by 2017, in defiance of the central government.

The Barcelona-based chamber passed the motion by 72 votes to 63.

The proposal was tabled by pro-secession lawmakers from the "Together for Yes" alliance and the extreme left-wing Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP). The groups together obtained a parliamentary majority in regional elections in September.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has previously vowed to take legal action against the Catalan parliament if it was to approve the secession plan. Rajoy was scheduled to speak later Monday.

The motion passed by the parliament in its first post-election session, declared "the start of a process toward the creation of an independent Catalan state in the form of a republic" and a "process of democratic disconnection not subject to the decisions by the institutions of the Spanish state."

Separatist lawmakers stood up and applauded the victory that will likely put them on a collision course with the central government and Spain's highest court.

"There is a growing cry for Catalonia to not merely be a country, but to be a state with everything that means," Raul Romeva, head of the "Together for Yes" alliance, said at the start of the session. "Today we don't only open a new parliament, this marks a before and after."

Catalan branches of Spain's ruling conservative Popular Party and the Socialist and the Citizens opposition parties had filed appeals to halt the vote, but Spain's Constitutional Court ruled last Thursday that it could go ahead.

"You want to divide a country by raising a frontier within the European Union," Citizens regional leader Ines Arrimadas told separatist lawmakers.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/11/09/world/europe/ap-eu-spain-catalonia-independence.html?_r=0

by Arquitecto Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:29 pm

Just skimmed through this thread and its shocking how much ignorance is on display towards independentisme català.

It is not just mainland Españoles who do that here and there though but mostly the supporters of Real Madrid etc outside Spain.

Not just for Catalans but for Basque independence its even worse.

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