Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:22 pm

That is a straw man my friend.  You have no idea what satire is... you need to read up on it.

And that's the message in France: if you're unable to laugh at yourself and you feel the urge to react violently if anyone does laugh at you... gtfo. You're in the wrong country. And if you don't want to gtfo, we will kick you out.

All the Islamic leaders here and all the Muslim people i know have called these guys barbaric and actually enjoy satire... even if it's at their expense. So this has nothing to do about the religion. It's about a segment of people who have a radical way of thinking and who want to take the law into their own hands. It has no place in France.


Last edited by sportsczy on Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:24 pm

Honestly the "they should have known better" argument is disgusting. No one deserves to die for drawing or saying something offensive. If the jihadists don't like the satire they should respond with a satire of their own.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:26 pm

Yeah, I'm with BC and sportscy on this one, it really can't be that we live in a world where I have no fear writing that Jesus sucks dick in hell, and am reasonably afraid to say the same about a certain other prophet.
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Post by Dante Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:29 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Yeah, I'm with BC and sportscy on this one, it really can't be that we live in a world where I have no fear writing that Jesus sucks dick in hell, and am reasonably afraid to say the same about a certain other prophet.


Laughing

also agree with Sports and BC
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Post by Peccadillo Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:30 pm

sportsczy wrote:That is a straw man my friend.  You have no idea what satire is... you need to read up on it.


how was anything I just said a straw man.

I approve of Satire. I should correct myself.. It isn't a "no go area" - I just mean the ramifications need to be at least considered and no one should act surprised if those potential ramifications are realised.

Seeing posters of Muhammad or my mother for that matter, would not offend me to the point of violence personally.

Sigh.. again people, this isn't about the world you want to live in or I want to live in. I would love to live in a world where people don't get murdered period too. I also think you will struggle to make a joke that will offend me to anything close to the point of anger.

I am not saying Charlie Hedbo deserved it. I am not saying that it was justified. Re read posts please and don't misconstrue.
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Post by Cruijf Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:42 pm

Obviously this was not deserved and cannot be justified by blaming the writers. Nevertheless, I think the discussion following an event like this should be around combating extremism, integrating Muslims into society (keep in mind most people that do things like this, Muslim or otherwise, often feel isolated), and also stopping hate speech. The things in this magazine do not fall under freedom of speech because they were not legitimately expressing an opinion, they were meant only to incite hatred.
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:45 pm

Soo, does VivaStPaulis last post violate the first bullet point of the goallegacy user guidelines, or are we all free here to write whatever we want?
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Post by Kaladin Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:48 pm

Dante wrote:
El Shaarawy wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:I'm very conflicted about the amount of people standing in solidarity by drawing pictures of Muhammad. On the one hand I absolutely sympathize with the expression of individual rights. On the other, I feel like this is insulting to many ordinary Muslims who don't share anything with these jihadists and are just as much victims of them.


Jihad has lost its meaning with the so-called 'Muslims' that use Islam to kill and murder rape.


What's it's true meaning then? (genuine question)


Jihad means 'struggle' in arabic, in the religious sense, jihad has many meanings. It can refer to internal as well as external efforts to be a good Muslims, as well as working to inform people about the faith of Islam. Jihad is not a violent concept,
its not a declaration of war against other religions. It is worth noting that the Quran specifically refers to Jews and Christians as "people of the book" who should be protected and respected. All three faiths worship the same God. Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and is used by Christian Arabs as well as Muslims.
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Post by Dante Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:55 pm

El Shaarawy wrote:
Dante wrote:
El Shaarawy wrote:


Jihad has lost its meaning with the so-called 'Muslims' that use Islam to kill and murder rape.


What's it's true meaning then? (genuine question)


Jihad means 'struggle' in arabic, in the religious sense, jihad has many meanings. It can refer to internal as well as external efforts to be a good Muslims, as well as working to inform people about the faith of Islam. Jihad is not a violent concept,
its not a declaration of war against other religions. It is worth noting that the Quran specifically refers to Jews and Christians as "people of the book" who should be protected and respected. All three faiths worship the same God. Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and is used by Christian Arabs as well as Muslims.


I see. And how can anyone go from that to what they do?? Is the text THAT open to interpretation , or is it people just read what they like . Because , from what i read here and what Jihadists do, i see day and night. Probably a bigger difference.

I see struggle as you say , but that is struggle to exist and survive above anything else that isn't their religion. Working to inform people according to what the Jihadists do and say seems like working to show it's supposed power , which extremists represent through unspeakable acts , with the worst crimes. I could go on but anyway , you get the point , if that's Jihad you said there , then people must be reading something entirely different or i don't know what .

I always thought Jihad was religious war. Something like 'us' v infidels(people who believe something different) .
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:00 am

I wonder whether extremists tend to suffer from scrupulosity, just a thought hmm Probably there is a psychological disposition involved
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:11 am

DuringTheWar wrote:Soo, does VivaStPaulis last post violate the first bullet point of the goallegacy user guidelines, or are we all free here to write whatever we want?
Guidelines wrote:Posting nudity, pornography, profanity, pictures containing profanity, vulgarity, hate speech, hostile comments or threats of violence or death, is strictly prohibited and will result in removal of offending posts and potential expulsion from the community.
VivaStPauli wrote:Yeah, I'm with BC and sportscy on this one, it really can't be that we live in a world where I have no fear writing that Jesus sucks dick in hell, and am reasonably afraid to say the same about a certain other prophet.

The guidelines are enforced based on the mods' evaluation of the comments in their context. While what viva posted can be construed as offensive he was posting as a hypothetical and was not directed at any user in particular. It's definitely vulgar but he didn't use one of the banned words.

You are most definitely not allowed to post whatever you want. We're still looking at this space and will enforce the rules if they are broken in a manner that still promotes healthy discussion.

Meanwhile I'm pretty sure you just violated Discussion of Moderator Actions :whistle:
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Post by Dante Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:16 am

ACMRox wrote:Obviously this was not deserved and cannot be justified by blaming the writers. Nevertheless, I think the discussion following an event like this should be around combating extremism, integrating Muslims into society (keep in mind most people that do things like this, Muslim or otherwise, often feel isolated), and also stopping hate speech. The things in this magazine do not fall under freedom of speech because they were not legitimately expressing an opinion, they were meant only to incite hatred.

Incite hatred? I really don't think so . It was satire and critique .

But really now ? It doesn't matter why they did it , it seriously doesn't . They didn't deserve any of this. Even if they trully wanted to incite hatred and only that , they still didn't deserve any of this anyway. There's no excuse , nothing. They are free to do so if they want , they didn't shove it down anyone's face. Didn't send e-mails to any Muslim to witness it. Their reasons , are almost irrelevant to bring up in this matter. They were murdered .

I would also like to add at this point . I remember being religious . And i remember how i was offended by this or that when i believed , up untill i was a teenager . Don't think i don't understand how it feels when someone mocks your dearest beliefs . Nevertheless , they have every right to mock if that's what they want to do and it shouldn't be different. The people in France want to live their lives freely and as they like , whatever and for whatever reasons the cartoonists may have done what they did , it wasn't anyone's concern's outside of France .Even inside of France , agreed or didn't , laughed or didn't , hated it or didn't , that's not something excusable by any stretch of logic , or reason .

Once again , it has to do with freedom. Before anything else.
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Post by mr-r34 Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:18 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Meanwhile I'm pretty sure you just violated Discussion of Moderator Actions :whistle:


What's the reasoning behind this rule?
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Post by Peccadillo Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:21 am

DuringTheWar wrote:I wonder whether extremists tend to suffer from scrupulosity, just a thought hmm Probably there is a psychological disposition involved


Interesting area of research.

From Wiki: There are large regional differences in the percentage of OCD patients who have religious obsessions or compulsions, ranging from 0–7% in countries like the U.K. and Singapore, to 40–60% in traditional Muslim and orthodox Jewish populations.[7]

(7) a b van Megen HJGM, den Boer-Wolters D, Verhagen PJ. Obsessive compulsive disorder and religion: a reconnaissance. In: Verhagen P, Van Praag HM, López-Ibor JJ Jr, Cox J, Moussaoui D, editors. Religion and Psychiatry: Beyond Boundaries. Wiley; 2010. ISBN 978-0-470-69471-8. p. 271–82.
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Post by Kaladin Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:29 am

Dante wrote:
El Shaarawy wrote:
Dante wrote:


What's it's true meaning then? (genuine question)


Jihad means 'struggle' in arabic, in the religious sense, jihad has many meanings. It can refer to internal as well as external efforts to be a good Muslims, as well as working to inform people about the faith of Islam. Jihad is not a violent concept,
its not a declaration of war against other religions. It is worth noting that the Quran specifically refers to Jews and Christians as "people of the book" who should be protected and respected. All three faiths worship the same God. Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and is used by Christian Arabs as well as Muslims.


I see. And how can anyone go from that to what they do?? Is the text THAT open to interpretation , or is it people just read what they like . Because , from what i read here and what Jihadists do, i see day and night. Probably a bigger difference.

I see struggle as you say , but that is struggle to exist and survive above anything else that isn't their religion. Working to inform people according to what the Jihadists do and say seems like working to show it's supposed power , which extremists represent through unspeakable acts , with the worst crimes. I could go on but anyway , you get the point , if that's Jihad you said there , then people must be reading something entirely different or i don't know what .

I always thought Jihad was religious war. Something like 'us' v infidels(people who believe something different) .


You have to keep in mind that these texts are over a 1000 years old, scholars today are still drawing deviations of interpretations from the text.

'Jihad' can also be translated to 'holy war' or 'holy struggle' but in a purely linguistic sense, the word means struggling or striving.

These animals that fight and cause wars, are twisting and tearing the words to fit their motives, whatever that may be. I refuse to recognize them as Muslims, and so do others.

'Jihad' doesn't mean show supposed power, its not join Islam or die. If you feel like Islam is a religion that empowers you or restores some faith to you then you can become a muslim, if not, well then thats fine. No force is needed.
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:29 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
DuringTheWar wrote:Soo, does VivaStPaulis last post violate the first bullet point of the goallegacy user guidelines, or are we all free here to write whatever we want?
Guidelines wrote:Posting nudity, pornography, profanity, pictures containing profanity, vulgarity, hate speech, hostile comments or threats of violence or death, is strictly prohibited and will result in removal of offending posts and potential expulsion from the community.
VivaStPauli wrote:Yeah, I'm with BC and sportscy on this one, it really can't be that we live in a world where I have no fear writing that Jesus sucks dick in hell, and am reasonably afraid to say the same about a certain other prophet.

The guidelines are enforced based on the mods' evaluation of the comments in their context. While what viva posted can be construed as offensive he was posting as a hypothetical and was not directed at any user in particular. It's definitely vulgar but he didn't use one of the banned words.

You are most definitely not allowed to post whatever you want. We're still looking at this space and will enforce the rules if they are broken in a manner that still promotes healthy discussion.

Meanwhile I'm pretty sure you just violated Discussion of Moderator Actions :whistle:
Yeah I'm not intending to discuss how you should moderate I'm just asking a question, as well as it has some relevance to the freedom of speech stuff, which I presume we actually don't have on this website based on the guidelines. I mean it is offensive by any measure.
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Post by Dante Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:35 am

mr-r34 wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Meanwhile I'm pretty sure you just violated Discussion of Moderator Actions :whistle:


What's the reasoning behind this rule?


you're not allowed to question the reasoning behind this rule Laughing
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:36 am

Peccadillo wrote:
DuringTheWar wrote:I wonder whether extremists tend to suffer from scrupulosity, just a thought hmm Probably there is a psychological disposition involved


Interesting area of research.

From Wiki: There are large regional differences in the percentage of OCD patients who have religious obsessions or compulsions, ranging from 0–7% in countries like the U.K. and Singapore, to 40–60% in traditional Muslim and orthodox Jewish populations.[7]

(7) a b van Megen HJGM, den Boer-Wolters D, Verhagen PJ. Obsessive compulsive disorder and religion: a reconnaissance. In: Verhagen P, Van Praag HM, López-Ibor JJ Jr, Cox J, Moussaoui D, editors. Religion and Psychiatry: Beyond Boundaries. Wiley; 2010. ISBN 978-0-470-69471-8. p. 271–82.


It wouldn't surprise me if there's connection. When I read about Islam some of the behaviours taught, such as walking into a bathroom left foot first and leaving right foot first, seemed to chime with OCD compulsions.
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Post by Peccadillo Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:37 am

Dante wrote:
mr-r34 wrote:
What's the reasoning behind this rule?


you're not allowed to question the reasoning behind this rule Laughing


Laughing
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Post by mr-r34 Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:37 am

LOL i can just foresee the bullshit excuse for that rule, what a joke.
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Post by Dante Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:46 am

El Shaarawy wrote:
Dante wrote:
El Shaarawy wrote:


Jihad means 'struggle' in arabic, in the religious sense, jihad has many meanings. It can refer to internal as well as external efforts to be a good Muslims, as well as working to inform people about the faith of Islam. Jihad is not a violent concept,
its not a declaration of war against other religions. It is worth noting that the Quran specifically refers to Jews and Christians as "people of the book" who should be protected and respected. All three faiths worship the same God. Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and is used by Christian Arabs as well as Muslims.


I see. And how can anyone go from that to what they do?? Is the text THAT open to interpretation , or is it people just read what they like . Because , from what i read here and what Jihadists do, i see day and night. Probably a bigger difference.

I see struggle as you say , but that is struggle to exist and survive above anything else that isn't their religion. Working to inform people according to what the Jihadists do and say seems like working to show it's supposed power , which extremists represent through unspeakable acts , with the worst crimes. I could go on but anyway , you get the point , if that's Jihad you said there , then people must be reading something entirely different or i don't know what .

I always thought Jihad was religious war. Something like 'us' v infidels(people who believe something different) .


You have to keep in mind that these texts are over a 1000 years old, scholars today are still drawing deviations of interpretations from the text.

'Jihad' can also be translated to 'holy war' or 'holy struggle' but in a purely linguistic sense, the word means struggling or striving.

These animals that fight and cause wars, are twisting and tearing the words to fit their  motives, whatever that may be. I refuse to recognize them as Muslims, and so do others.

'Jihad' doesn't mean show supposed power, its not join Islam or die. If you feel like Islam is a religion that empowers you or restores some faith to you then you can become a muslim, if not, well then thats fine. No force is needed.


I get you . Sadly there's no reasoning with people who go on to murder for any reason , let alone in the name of religion and old texts. On the other hand , i've read stuff from Islam that clearly talk against infidels . Whilst in religion i've learned that almost everything is open to interpretation and whilst i am uncomfortable of pointing fingers without having read the Koran 100% , at least in an accepted translation , i find it a bit hard to believe they don't find any basis for the things they do . All the abrahamic religions have severely outdated doctrines inside them.

Having read the the Bible , both old and new , i must say there are clearly things in there that frankly have no place today. And i ask , do these parasites follow their holy book to the core , to the last word? Cause that would explain a lot. Having said that , i realise full well what you mean by , I refuse to recognize them as Muslims, and so do others . I really do . It hasn't even to do with just Muslims , there are many honestly moral and good persons in this world who believe and they don't count others as the same with them , they lead different lives and have different minds(*edit) , being Muslims/Christians only in name .

In any case , nobody should be blaming or even involving ordinary muslims for things these parasites have done.


Last edited by Dante on Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Peccadillo Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:47 am

DuringTheWar wrote:
Peccadillo wrote:
DuringTheWar wrote:I wonder whether extremists tend to suffer from scrupulosity, just a thought hmm Probably there is a psychological disposition involved


Interesting area of research.

From Wiki: There are large regional differences in the percentage of OCD patients who have religious obsessions or compulsions, ranging from 0–7% in countries like the U.K. and Singapore, to 40–60% in traditional Muslim and orthodox Jewish populations.[7]

(7) a b van Megen HJGM, den Boer-Wolters D, Verhagen PJ. Obsessive compulsive disorder and religion: a reconnaissance. In: Verhagen P, Van Praag HM, López-Ibor JJ Jr, Cox J, Moussaoui D, editors. Religion and Psychiatry: Beyond Boundaries. Wiley; 2010. ISBN 978-0-470-69471-8. p. 271–82.


It wouldn't surprise me if there's connection. When I read about Islam some of the behaviours taught, such as walking into a bathroom left foot first and leaving right foot first, seemed to chime with OCD compulsions.


Yes, there are many of these types of nuances. Some of them actually have shown to have some form of benefit, be it hygienically or otherwise... but there are still plenty of nuances, like the left foot first one, that I can't see as having any reasonable rationale behind them.

They all come from Hadith (ie not the "word of God" but actions of Muhammad, according to ~300 years worth of word of mouth).

If you are teaching a child from an early age that its really important that you enter a room with your left foot first.. I would say that is certainly encouraging OCD behaviours.
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Post by Dante Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:56 am

mr-r34 wrote:LOL i can just foresee the bullshit excuse for that rule, what a joke.


but that's the society here. We accept it . We responsibly say what we say. WE agreed to the terms , so we can use the forums. It's only fair , not a lack of freedom of speech. It's not the same thing as away of the internet. I suspect people living in opressed countries have more freedom of speech in here than in their every day life , it's more complicated than that.

It goes to show really , similarly to what we discussed here. The French in their society have more open rules and it's their own rules that they agree on. Nobody can have and won't have a say on that , irregardless of their beliefs and what offends them.

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Post by Shed Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:59 am

Peccadillo wrote:Sorry but some things are a no go area. You can't prod a tiger with a stick and expect not to get bit.

There are laws in many countries, including Australia (Shed), where inciting hatred is punishable by law - this is for good reason. Shed you should check your own countries legal system, there is something called the Australian Racial Discrimination Act. But yes I agree it is not harsh enough.

It may be a joke, but when it is clearly there to push buttons and fuelling an already turbulent situation, then really you shouldn't do it.

Being an Australian you will remember the Cronulla Riots, where Alan Jones, a popular radio DJ, was encouraging locals to go down to Cronulla to kick the Lebanese (muslims) out of the beach. Reading out the following text message that was going around, and not opposing to it -  "Come to Cronulla this weekend to take revenge. This Sunday every Aussie in the Shire get down to North Cronulla to support the Leb and wog bashing day …"

Violence ensued where anyone of brown complexion in the vicinity of Cronulla beach were brutally bashed, two school kids were hospitalised as they arrived to Cronulla on the train after being beaten by about 50 men, thousands of white Australians roamed the streets yelling such digressions as "f off wogs" and nationalistic insanity hit an all time low.

Alan Jones got a slap on the wrist after he was eventually recognised for being "out of line". Although this is not a joke, it was still Alan Jones exercising what you believe to be his right to freedom of speech, therefore I don't see the difference. The fact something is intended to be humorous does not give it impunity.

So if you really believe that facilitating pure "freedom of speech" is wise and the best thing for society then you really are blind to reality.

No one agrees that people deserve to be murdered for making a joke, no matter how insensitive - clearly the punishment does not fit the crime. All people are saying is that Charlie Hedbo were pushing buttons and they would have known it. People enjoy it much like school children enjoy making inappropriate naughty jokes, irrespective of how it affects others, this can even be manifested into schoolyard bullying, which can contribute to suicide and even rarely, massacres.

This is fine amongst friends, but in a public domain you have a social responsibility.

As for your comparison to a woman who doesn't deserve to be raped for wearing a short skirt - undisputable. But more this is more like waving your privates in front of a convicted rapist and saying hello sailor.


Sorry you've put so much time into 90% of this but I'm an American Laughing The flag (which is New Zealand's, by the way...) is just a joke between Kick and me.

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Post by Cruijf Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:07 am

Dante wrote:On the other hand , i've read stuff from Islam that clearly talk against infidels . Whilst in religion i've learned that almost everything is open to interpretation and whilst i am uncomfortable of pointing fingers without having read the Koran 100% , at least in an accepted translation , i find it a bit hard to believe they don't find any basis for the things they do . All the abrahamic religions have severely outdated doctrines inside them.

Having read the the Bible , both old and new , i must say there are clearly things in there that frankly have no place today. And i ask , do these parasites follow their holy book to the core , to the last word? Cause that would explain a lot. Having said that , i realise full well what you mean by , I refuse to recognize them as Muslims, and so do others . I really do . It hasn't even to do with just Muslims , there are many honestly moral and good persons in this world who believe and they don't count others as the same with them , they lead different lives and have different names , being Muslims/Christians only in name .

In any case , nobody should be blaming or even involving ordinary muslims for things these parasites have done.

There are certainly verses in the Quran that speak of violence against non believers, something which has been frequently pointed out and criticized, but considering the context (the verses in question were revealed in the middle of a war and were in reference to when fighting was allowed) no one with half a brain would consider it to justify what some people have done.

It's like if I tell you, "Avoid violence, but if someone attacks you then you're allowed to fight them" and the only thing you take away and repeatedly quote is "fight them" Laughing

I understand your skepticism (where did they get their ideas from then?) but it's important to note many terrorists haven't even read the Quran, they get most of their info from books written by other radicals.
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Post by mr-r34 Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:18 am

Dante wrote:
mr-r34 wrote:LOL i can just foresee the bullshit excuse for that rule, what a joke.


but that's the society here. We accept it . We responsibly say what we say. WE agreed to the terms , so we can use the forums. It's only fair , not a lack of freedom of speech. It's not the same thing as away of the internet. I suspect people living in opressed countries have more freedom of speech in here than in their every day life , it's more complicated than that.

It goes to show really , similarly to what we discussed here. The French in their society have more open rules and it's their own rules that they agree on. Nobody can have and won't have a say on that , irregardless of their beliefs and what offends them.



Agreed is such a loose word here, made to accept is more like it, i don't see why mods and admins are above public criticism.
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