Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:14 pm

I know some Muslims that don't believe in free speech, they've admitted that simple. They aren't humanists that believe you have an inherent right to do that, and that goes for some other behaviours westerners also ascribe rights to. I'm not saying it's a bad thing but it's their thing, it doesn't take a genius to notice a clash here.

But i'll say this as well, it's the easiest thing in the world to preach free speech, until someone says something abominable aimed at you. Then aside from religion, all manner of people suddenly get jittery, feminists, and other civil rights movements, I've seen members of everyone of these groups as well as normal people on social media say to hell with free speech when all of sudden it's THEM on trial. Ffs twitter is full of people reporting people, and not only that but trying to get them arrested Laughing Obviously this is not equivalent to killing people, but as a moral point I seriously doubt there are as many real advocates of free speech as there are people that like to think they are real advocates of free speech. And I'd also like to raise a question, do you at any point draw the line? At what point where someone says something so depraved, so grotesque, the people he's targeting it at can reasonably be expected to snap?

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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:24 pm

Getting jittery and responding in kind is fine...  you don't kill people ffs.  I went to the US in the 80s and i was called all kinds of horrible things because i'm a bit darker.  Heck, i was called all kinds of things in France.  I didn't get a gun and shoot them Laughing  I dished it back.

Also, free speech doesn't mean you can speak freely in private establishments.  You also cannot "disturb the peace", which means hold up traffic or yell so loud that people get disturbed.  There are controls.  But it does mean that in public mediums and in public media, you can say what you want as long as it's not illegal (such as slander and libel).  

Freedom of the press is critical to a free society and that's all there is to it.  If they don't want to be free in whatever country they're in, that's their choice.  But don't come to our country and force us to abide by your rules...  i'm telling you, we will then come to your country and hell will have to paid as it was shown in Irak, against the Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc.

If a terrorist group or a foreign regime is proven to have trained and backed these guys, expect bombs to fall and fall hard. Innocent people will also get hurt unfortunately, but that's just the way it is.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:30 pm

and btw, Charlie Hebdo is being published next week as usual... and they're expected to publish a seething satire that will be very very offensive to some. And guess what, that's fine. I may not agree with it and i may also find it offensive. But so what. That's the freedom of the press. It's not slander or libel. It's just satire.
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:31 pm

I stated that it's not equivalent to murder, and thepoint is not that it makes people uncomfortable and respond in kind. It's that people tend to think the person is morally wrong for saying something and should be shut down and put in prison Laughing They will seek legal punishments against someone saying something they don't like, and hell I live in the politically correct capital of the world where there's a frickin manual of things you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT SAY!1!
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:39 pm

Dude, i worked in corporate America my whole life. I know full well how politically correct you need to be... but that's private enterprise and you need to abide by the rules. Companies can get sued in the US for being "insensitive"... but the press cannot and it's for a good reason.

Heck, if they were so upset at Charlie Hebdo and felt it was slanderous... sue them Laughing That's the way to do it.

France is very irreverent of institutions and political correctness... they like to make fun of everything. Heck, they have HIGHLY offensive satires of all their political/business/entertainment figures on the "Guignoles" show. So i don't see why some feel singled out when this stuff is targeted at everyone.
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:51 pm

I'm not talking about corporations I'm talking about normal people and members of political groups on social media sites that shut down dissent and try hard in some cases to get the police involved, morally it could hardly be more obvious the lack of conviction they have towards free speech. In England it's well known if you are a public figure you aren't entitled to think different from the heard, ok you won't be arrested in most cases, but you will be turned into a pariah, not for extreme views just for contrarian ones, and who wants that? The spirit of free speech is an inch from death.

Also, watch "Thunderf00t"s youtube video of feminism poisoning atheism.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:57 pm

Social media sites are private entities so they are entitled to moderate and manage their site however they want within the law.

if you say something that's very unpopular... you may get vilified.  But it doesn't mean that you can't say it.   You can say it.  Politics is a popularity contest so it's probably not a good career move... but you're free to do it.

Freedom has consequences.  Being free doesn't mean that you're immune to unfairness and consequences.  It means that you are free to do or say what you want and you are protected within the extent of the law... nothing more, nothing less.


Last edited by sportsczy on Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:57 pm

sportsczy wrote:
France is very irreverent of institutions and political correctness... they like to make fun of everything.


Wasn't Diuedonne forbidden to do shows with anti Semitic jokes?
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:00 pm

yeah but that's because he was calling for anti semitic actions that weren't legal in some of his stuff...  it wasn't satire.  It was a call for illegal acts and that's why he got censored.  If he hadn't made those calls, there wouldn't have been a problem.

The legal establishment dug into his material to find something illegal and they were able to find stuff.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:23 pm

RED wrote:
S wrote:Those cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo wasnt particularly smart was it ?
Forget extremists,religious jokes in general arent well received by people especially in Asian countries.Religion is a sensitive issue and we're talking about a faith followed by over 3 billion people the world over and which they consider it as a passion.
Dont tell me Muslims in general werent irked when they released those cartoons mocking the prophet let alone these terrorist groups.
I'm sure all Muslims condemn these barbaric attacks.Only narrow minded Muslims wouldnt.Ultimately its Muslim civilians themselves that will be subject to discrimination and hatred probably across entire Europe.


Exactly how I look at it.

Why did they feel the need to publish provocative drawings that will enrage millions upon millions of people including a bunch of terrorists, and in turn put their lives at risk.

Yes freedom of speech is all well and good, but with limitations. They knew these drawings would stir up emotions, they knew what type of reactions it will evoke, they've been threatened countless times, have had their offices bombed, yet they still went and published new drawings of the Prophet. All for what? To prove a point of freedom of speech? Is it really worth it losing your life over? When the warning signs were there that these extremist will stop at nothing to harm you and your colleagues over a very sensitive subject.

They had it coming.

What happened to them was messed up. But what did they expect, honestly.

This!

Though I don't condone mass murders, I believe that as a person, no matter what your beliefs are, you must also take other people's beliefs into account and respect them because guess what, they're just a human being just like you. You don't take precedence over anyone. And you know very well that this is a sensitive subject but you still go and publish stuff that is disrespectful to fellow human beings. Freedom of Speech is one of the best things in this world, because I believe in Individualism, but you aren't alone in this world, and not everyone thinks and sees the world like you, so needless to say their will be limitations. Simple as.

I also want to see a world without religion and I also every now and then like to voice out on how, imo, bad religion is for the world. But let's face facts, we're still far away from a world without religion.
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Post by Dante Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:26 pm

I'll just say this , nobody has to respect any religion . You earn respect and that goes for religions too , you don't have special religious rights other than being free to believe in and practise your religion. Especially when you live in a democracy, that's all you get and that's all your religion deserves and that's all your rights have to be , nothing more. You cannot demand respect in a democracy , you have to earn it irregardless of what or who you are. Anybody has the right to mock any religion regardless of what each religion's dogma dictates , if that's what they want.

Somebody should tell these "people" what blasphemy really means. If you're a Muslim and mock or draw Mohammed , THAT'S blasphemy . If you don't believe in Islam and mock and make a mocking or insulting cartoon of Mohammed , that's NOT blasphemy .     

People cannot be dying in the name of religion today , nobody cares in what god "you" believe in and if you're offended . And frankly , when any religion demands respect then maybe it is because they cannot have it elsewise , which reveals a lot. At least to those who like to think a little.

Freedom of speech means someone has the right to say whatever they want . "Your" religion is to someone else just a mythology . Just as for the Muslim other gods are lies and mythology , it's the same to the rest of us who don't believe in Islam. I don't see anyone mocking Thor getting killed for it . I don't see anyone mocking Zeus getting killed for it. I don't see anyone mocking Cthullu getting killed for it. I don't see anyone mocking Horus getting killed for it.

Suddenly you mock a different one's fantastical friend and you're dead .

The problem with any religion , is , faced with the choice of , to be mocked or not to be mocked ; religion unashamedly dictates and demands not to , it doesn't agree with granting others the freedom to mock anything the dogma declares as holy , no matter how unreasonable . However you put it , that's fundamentaly flawed , for those who value freedom and democracy it is . Anybody MUST have the right to mock your religion/god and when they don't , then maybe your religion/god doesn't deserve to be mocked. When they do , though.. it should make you think , besides being just offended. Whatever the reaction within a theist might be , nobody has any right to kill anyone for such reasons.

Some people mocked Mohammed in France and they died for it. It was a tragic day for humanity , i say this from the heart. My deepest condolences to the French . When i saw their reaction , i was emotionaly moved . I really don't care which religion they/he/she mocks , if anyone breaks a rule by what they said or did , or the law , they will face the consequences , simple as that. These people did absolutely nothing wrong .
They had every right to mock if that's what they felt , they didn't go in any Islamic state or what have you to offend Muslims. They didn't shove it down on any religious person face. In their own country they spoke their minds in the way they deemed likely , nobody anywhere in the world has any right to answer back like this .

Je Suis Charlie .
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:57 pm

I'm very conflicted about the amount of people standing in solidarity by drawing pictures of Muhammad. On the one hand I absolutely sympathize with the expression of individual rights. On the other, I feel like this is insulting to many ordinary Muslims who don't share anything with these jihadists and are just as much victims of them.
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Post by rwo power Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:05 pm

Well, on the other hand, maybe the caricaturists feel insulted because someone wants to cut into their right to draw whatever they want to as long as it is within the law of the country they live in? The insult goes both ways.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:12 pm

Dante it isn't the religion per se that you have to respect, but the countless fellow human beings who follow this religion.
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Post by Dante Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:34 pm

i am sorry but , once you believe i can't or shouldn't draw whatever i want , no , i don't have to respect that. I honestly don't care if someone's offended , it doesn't have anything to do with me . I don't have to respect anything religious people believe. However . That doesn't mean i will be going about to particularly insult them , or that i take pleasure in such acts , or that i actively seek to do such things..

No. But when certain things must be said , we shouldn't let it go under the carpet just because some may get offended . Not sure if i make sense , i don't seek to hurt people for what they believe. Just as i am responsible for what i say and what i do , they are responsible for themselves as well.

When someone goes into the streets raising a banner of the Flying Spaghetti Monster claiming 'X', Christians/Muslims/e.t.c will laugh... when that is an older-different religion claiming 'X' and someone says , "hey that's ridiculous" , people lose their minds . To me , you either value freedom and logic , or i will have to respond in kind . The times where religion and it's people went about expecting not to be questioned are long gone and that's all i stand for.

I have religious people close to me you know , family , friends , a gf here and there e.t.c . I do respect them , i really do . I don't bother them with my beliefs , i don't say how they feel like believing in talking snakes and all , e.t.c , i don't question why they give money they don't have to the church . Unless we open such a discussion and only then . They are free to believe and practise their religion , as far as i am concerned. I know christians who agree with me btw. What their rights as far as their religion go however , aren't unlimited nor special , just because they believe what they believe. I hope i am making sense .
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:51 pm

El Gunner wrote:Dante it isn't the religion per se that you have to respect, but the countless fellow human beings who follow this religion.


In Argentina (home country of the pope)  a satirical magazine recently had this cover satirizing the pope trying to build bridges with the gay community :

http://www.diarioveloz.com/adjuntos/120/imagenes/001/740/0001740308.jpg

Putazo means something like "super f*****t" by the way.

Many people were offended. No one thought to do anything violent about it.
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Post by M99 Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:14 pm

Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting - Page 3 14006_10203727813256978_2933904770171943909_n

Sigh
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Post by Dante Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:05 pm

And why should anything else happen , of course. This did remind me though of something else , let me give an example of hypocrisy , of the highest order .

_

Not too long ago , there was an infamous here in Greece Facebook profile , which was called Elder Pastitsios , in mock of the original monk , Elder Paisios , who is still famous in Greece for his (supposedly) spiritual teachings.

In truth , that old monk was a misogynist , a fascist , a racist , spoke of imaginary wars against Turkey and that Turkey deserves and shall have a genocide and will drown in blood and generally much hatred coming from a man of god , along the lines of love , doing good and god works in mysterious ways. Some people exploited that and sold books , stories , lies , made money on him because religious people here fiercely believed everything that monk supposedly said...more than half are lies of course. Most of the real things he said reveal what a person he was and he may or may not have been sick in mind as well. Things like , it was said his scarf could supposedly cure cancer ... and the monk died from cancer and that still didn't ring a ball to some people ... *sigh*

One day a young atheist who was fed up with the supposed divine teachings and miracles and all that magazines and papers and even parts of the church claimed he did or said , makes this facebook profile and begins mocking what was being said about the monk. He masterminds a fake miracle based on "old ones" and passes it online to many new sites , mostly of religious type but not strictly . Without practising simple journalism , any kind of research , without confirmations , without anything , just like that , it goes viral ; There was even in a couple of trash papers who published the miracle , along with books and dvs on the life of the monk , lmao.. Days pass and the dude later reveals the best trolling i've ever seen Laughing , in his infamous facebook profile . Thus proving to the christian greeks , both that some folk like to exploit their beliefs and how gullible they are afterall and that maybe they should think , instead of follow blindly on things about their religion.. They didn't like that. Outrage . Hatred . Threats. Mostly laughter by the sane Laughing

Sadly it didn't have a happy ending . Countless fundamentalists and extremely holy christians reported his profile and posted countless times how offended they were , numerous called the police and eventually a "politician" of the neo-nazi party(who's in jail now Proud) intervened to shut his mouth and bring him to justice . Yeah and he managed it , because Greece . There's was a rule with regards to blasphemy , to this day from who knows when.. "freedom of speech" , that man didn't even insult their religion , just a monk. They did this then . And most here mourn and say "look at the Muslims and all" , about what happened to France . And they don't even realise how hypocrites they are .

I don't care where these things happen . It's the same to me . I was part of that profile almost a year before it closed and i openly liked any jokes it had . Friends and everyone saw what i liked for a long time . Nobody ever dared say anything to me , just because i laughed at something about their religion . Between users there wasn't reported a single issue , with the owner of the page there was. Point being , yes you can mock parts of religion or anything about religion really , when it deserves it. You don't see anyone atheist or just sane person , mocking the religious teachings such as , love thy x , e.t.c . When something like religion or it's people get mocked , even god of said religion , there's a reason. It almost never happens for no good reason.
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:21 pm

Dante many people have good reasons, many people don't, end of. Many people make scatological references and such for sheer shock value, no other motive apart from being twats. Some people have political motives and statements to make. But please don't act as if every person that sets out to do something offensive is doing a noble job.
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Post by Dante Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:44 pm

Oh I am well aware i am not 18 years old anymore , i am just not concerned about if certain people are offended . Not sure how you came to that conclusion but it has absolutely nothing to do with noble or fair . I am not concerned with motives on this subject.  

I am concerned with one's freedom of being able to do and say what they want . Yes some are twats , good or bad reasons , others seek to make people think , good or bad reasons . You don't need any noble cause for that , nor offending anything religion will make it 'noble'. I agree there , do i care as long as they have every right to do so?

I do not care. Let them mock , that's what i really care , that they can do so freely . I can judge from there thank you. It doesn't have to do with good or bad , or noble , it has to do about freedom .
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Post by Kaladin Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:53 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I'm very conflicted about the amount of people standing in solidarity by drawing pictures of Muhammad. On the one hand I absolutely sympathize with the expression of individual rights. On the other, I feel like this is insulting to many ordinary Muslims who don't share anything with these jihadists and are just as much victims of them.


Jihad has lost its meaning with the so-called 'Muslims' that use Islam to kill and murder rape.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:02 pm

sportsczy wrote:You can't associate extremism within a religion with the religion generally. You're talking 1% or less here.


Sure you can, you just have to still differentiate between the 99% and the 1%. There is a huge problem of religious fundamentalism in general, and it isn't a muslim-only problem, Islamis is just the most globalized of those, but any fundamentalist is, basically, f*cking nuts, and the Islamic faith breeds those nutjobs by the hundreds these days.
This doesn't mean peaceful muslims are to blame for any of the attacks carried out by extremists, but at the same time, and I don't think I've got a history of attacking muslims in our debates here, you have to say:
There is a sadly huge, silent minority who fail to take action, or to condemn. Sure, there's only a couple dozen jihadists willing to die within Europe, but they've got tens of thousands of acquintances, and of those, thousands are willing to give them shelter, or at least would not rat them out.

People like Mohammad Ata don't just exist within a vacuum in cities like Hamburg, they got friends, and they get raised in communities that fail to condemn acts of senseless violence.

I know this isn't the majority. But when you talk about a faith of a billion people, 1% ready for violence is 10 f*cking million people, and add to that another hundred million enablers.

This is my anti-islamist rant.


But let's also not forget that the biggest test to face Europe now is to remain better than our enemies. We're the continent of freedom, and democracy, of enlightenment. Let's not make this about vengeance. And Muslims are part of Europe, too. There's 5 milion of them in Germany, and they're productive citizens, and beloved makers of Kebab.
There's millions in France as well. Do not hate them. Invite them into the midst of society, and convince them, that the backwards strict fundamentalist shit they've been fed is bad, not western society.

Western Europe isn't immoral. It is very flawed, but it is still less flawed than any other place on the planet. And we don't execute, torture, or silence anyone. Let's keep it that way.


And WTF, BTW is with the cowardice? Nobody got the balls to reprint the caricatures?
Sorry, but even if it's kind of mean, you should be able to insult any prophet of any religion in a free society.
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Post by Dante Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:05 pm

El Shaarawy wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:I'm very conflicted about the amount of people standing in solidarity by drawing pictures of Muhammad. On the one hand I absolutely sympathize with the expression of individual rights. On the other, I feel like this is insulting to many ordinary Muslims who don't share anything with these jihadists and are just as much victims of them.


Jihad has lost its meaning with the so-called 'Muslims' that use Islam to kill and murder rape.


What's it's true meaning then? (genuine question)
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:09 pm

In any case, all of France has risen to reject the notion that their freedom can be compromised by some fanatical segment of a religion.  There are vigils everywhere and demonstrations celebrating freedom everywhere.  There will be a massive demonstration on Sunday attended by almost everyone.  They say that it will be the largest gathering of people in France since the Armistice of 1945.

So you can all argue that freedom here is too much and it is not what you would want... we don't care.  We want it.  It's our country.  If you don't like it, go take a hike.  We don't want you here.  Within our land, we do as we choose as long as we're not breaking any international law or any treaties and we're respecting human rights...

I could care less if you think otherwise.
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Post by Peccadillo Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:15 pm

Sorry but some things are a no go area. You can't prod a tiger with a stick and expect not to get bit.

There are laws in many countries, including Australia (Shed), where inciting hatred is punishable by law - this is for good reason. Shed you should check your own countries legal system, there is something called the Australian Racial Discrimination Act. But yes I agree it is not harsh enough.

It may be a joke, but when it is clearly there to push buttons and fuelling an already turbulent situation, then really you shouldn't do it.

Being an Australian you will remember the Cronulla Riots, where Alan Jones, a popular radio DJ, was encouraging locals to go down to Cronulla to kick the Lebanese (muslims) out of the beach. Reading out the following text message that was going around, and not opposing to it -  "Come to Cronulla this weekend to take revenge. This Sunday every Aussie in the Shire get down to North Cronulla to support the Leb and wog bashing day …"

Violence ensued where anyone of brown complexion in the vicinity of Cronulla beach were brutally bashed, two school kids were hospitalised as they arrived to Cronulla on the train after being beaten by about 50 men, thousands of white Australians roamed the streets yelling such digressions as "f off wogs" and nationalistic insanity hit an all time low.

Alan Jones got a slap on the wrist after he was eventually recognised for being "out of line". Although this is not a joke, it was still Alan Jones exercising what you believe to be his right to freedom of speech, therefore I don't see the difference. The fact something is intended to be humorous does not give it impunity.

So if you really believe that facilitating pure "freedom of speech" is wise and the best thing for society then you really are blind to reality.

No one agrees that people deserve to be murdered for making a joke, no matter how insensitive - clearly the punishment does not fit the crime. All people are saying is that Charlie Hedbo were pushing buttons and they would have known it. People enjoy it much like school children enjoy making inappropriate naughty jokes, irrespective of how it affects others, this can even be manifested into schoolyard bullying, which can contribute to suicide and even rarely, massacres.

This is fine amongst friends, but in a public domain you have a social responsibility.

As for your comparison to a woman who doesn't deserve to be raped for wearing a short skirt - undisputable. But more this is more like waving your privates in front of a convicted rapist and saying hello sailor.


Last edited by Peccadillo on Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:22 pm

That is a straw man my friend.  You have no idea what satire is... you need to read up on it.

And that's the message in France: if you're unable to laugh at yourself and you feel the urge to react violently if anyone does laugh at you... gtfo. You're in the wrong country. And if you don't want to gtfo, we will kick you out.

All the Islamic leaders here and all the Muslim people i know have called these guys barbaric and actually enjoy satire... even if it's at their expense. So this has nothing to do about the religion. It's about a segment of people who have a radical way of thinking and who want to take the law into their own hands. It has no place in France.


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