Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

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Post by Shed Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:22 am

@S wrote:
@Shed wrote:
@S wrote:Those cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo wasnt particularly smart was it ?
Forget extremists,religious jokes in general arent well received by people especially in Asian countries.Religion is a sensitive issue and we're talking about a faith followed by over 3 billion people the world over and which they consider it as a passion.
Dont tell me Muslims in general werent irked when they released those cartoons mocking the prophet let alone these terrorist groups.
-

A person doesn't have the right not to be offended. Freedoms of speech and expression aren't conditional on no one's feelings being hurt. If I read something I don't agree with, see a piece of comedy that satirises an aspect about myself or something that I like, or encounter a critique or a rebuke of something important to me, I....put it down and read something else. Not commit a mass murder against its purveyors.



But people do get offended especially when you're mocking god in this case.Its just not in the culture of people in certain countries to be able to take a joke.In India for example,im sure it would've sparked an outrage if cartoons mocking Hindu religion were published.
You dont see racist jokes being particularly well received either do you ?
Its not critique against just one person but millions upon millions who practice a faith and find peace in that.
We have to learn to differentiate between a bunch of *bleep* up idiots killing people in the name of god and those millions upon millions who dont intend to harm anybody but rather worship god for the sake of their own health and living.


I support the right of individuals to say and write what they want, regardless of whether or not I agree with its content. You telling people to not publish or say potentially controversial or offensive things if they don't want to precipitate a violent, potentially fatal reaction against themselves, is the equivalent of telling a woman she shouldn't wear a short skirt or a low-cut top if she doesn't want to get raped, or that people shouldn't buy and own nice things if they don't want to get robbed, or that a person shouldn't drive a nice car if they don't want to be carjacked, or that parents shouldn't let their children play outside if they don't want them to get kidnapped, and on and on and on.
-

And let's not pretend this is some wanton attack on 2 billion 'peaceful' people. The only reason the cartoon had reason to be published in the first place is because for the people it's targeted at (the insecure, touchy, validation-needy fundamentalists), the religion has nothing to do with peace and absolutely everything to do with control. Had the extent of Islam been a few billion people practising their ideology, kneeling down on a rug and praying towards Mecca everyday and so forth, what reason would anyone have to take issue with it in the first place? It's because it's not. For the very vocal, very violent minority, it's about intimidation and coercion and compulsory compliance. And those on the end of it will not retreat an inch to placate them.


When you begin suggesting that the good start moderating or limiting their lawful behaviour for the sake or at the behest of the evil, you've got things all wrong.


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Post by Shed Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:32 am

@S wrote:You talk about freedom of speech and no censorship.

Then tell me why is there an anti-racism code ?


There ought not to be. There certainly isn't in the country I live in.

Obviously I don't support racial prejudices or their airings, but one of the absolute fundamentals of a free society is that one supports the legality of things he or she might not necessarily support in practice. Again, when no one being offended or no person's feelings being hurt becomes a prerequisite for free speech, it's not 'free' at all.

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Post by RED Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:35 am

@S wrote:Those cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo wasnt particularly smart was it ?
Forget extremists,religious jokes in general arent well received by people especially in Asian countries.Religion is a sensitive issue and we're talking about a faith followed by over 3 billion people the world over and which they consider it as a passion.
Dont tell me Muslims in general werent irked when they released those cartoons mocking the prophet let alone these terrorist groups.
I'm sure all Muslims condemn these barbaric attacks.Only narrow minded Muslims wouldnt.Ultimately its Muslim civilians themselves that will be subject to discrimination and hatred probably across entire Europe.


Exactly how I look at it.

Why did they feel the need to publish provocative drawings that will enrage millions upon millions of people including a bunch of terrorists, and in turn put their lives at risk.

Yes freedom of speech is all well and good, but with limitations. They knew these drawings would stir up emotions, they knew what type of reactions it will evoke, they've been threatened countless times, have had their offices bombed, yet they still went and published new drawings of the Prophet. All for what? To prove a point of freedom of speech? Is it really worth it losing your life over? When the warning signs were there that these extremist will stop at nothing to harm you and your colleagues over a very sensitive subject.

They had it coming.

What happened to them was messed up. But what did they expect, honestly.


Last edited by RED on Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Guest Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:37 am

@Shed wrote:
@S wrote:You talk about freedom of speech and no censorship.

Then tell me why is there an anti-racism code ?


There ought not to be. There certainly isn't in the country I live in.

Obviously I don't support racial prejudices or their airings, but one of the absolute fundamentals of a free society is that one supports the legality of things he or she might not necessarily support in practice. Again, when no one being offended or no person's feelings being hurt becomes a prerequisite for free speech, it's not 'free' at all.



There most certainly should be laws that deal with racist speech because racism, by nature, incites people.

The same way you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, because it creates an imminent danger so should racist speech be labeled.

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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:44 am

@S wrote:Those cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo wasnt particularly smart was it ?
Forget extremists,religious jokes in general arent well received by people especially in Asian countries.Religion is a sensitive issue and we're talking about a faith followed by over 3 billion people the world over and which they consider it as a passion.
Dont tell me Muslims in general werent irked when they released those cartoons mocking the prophet let alone these terrorist groups.
I'm sure all Muslims condemn these barbaric attacks.Only narrow minded Muslims wouldnt.Ultimately its Muslim civilians themselves that will be subject to discrimination and hatred probably across entire Europe.


This is probably best answered by a 2 year old cartoon from the Onion, which I will now link.
This is a very NSFW link.

I repeat, the below link is NSFW, posting the image directly would violate most forum rules, do not do it, and again, be warned that you might be offended, as well as educated, if you click this link.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:52 am

unbelievable that people think that "they had it coming"... makes me feel like downgrading my evaluation of the IQ of posters. For some, i didn't think i could go lower. But i guess i was wrong Laughing
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Post by rwo power Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am

Well, the difference is that racism is targeted at real living people while the satire published by Charlie Hebdo was just targeted at the immaterial sky fairy and people committing wrongs in its name.

In the first case you commit a wrong against real people, while in the second case you only ridicule people who do wrongs themselves - after all, the caricatures were actually targeted at the fanatics whose idiocies need to be addressed to point out that they are in the wrong.

And what better way to do that than by paintings and words which do not shed blood?

The blood shedding was done by the criminals who obviously realized that the writers had written the truth about them and they felt thus so embarassed that they saw no other way than to rip down any veneer of civilization they might have assumed and just acted in brainless barbarism, thus revealing to the world their true face of utter callousness and sole strive to exert control by any means at hand and brutal force.

They need to be shown for what they are until they are shunned by all humankind and stopped before they manage to brutalize the rest of society and subjugate them to their misguided beliefs.
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Post by Guest Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:59 am

@RED wrote:
@S wrote:Those cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo wasnt particularly smart was it ?
Forget extremists,religious jokes in general arent well received by people especially in Asian countries.Religion is a sensitive issue and we're talking about a faith followed by over 3 billion people the world over and which they consider it as a passion.
Dont tell me Muslims in general werent irked when they released those cartoons mocking the prophet let alone these terrorist groups.
I'm sure all Muslims condemn these barbaric attacks.Only narrow minded Muslims wouldnt.Ultimately its Muslim civilians themselves that will be subject to discrimination and hatred probably across entire Europe.


Exactly how I look at it.

Why did they feel the need to publish provocative drawings that will enrage millions upon millions of people including a bunch of terrorists, and in turn put their lives at risk.

Yes freedom of speech is all well and good, but with limitations. They knew these drawings would stir up emotions, they knew what type of reactions it will evoke, they've been threatened countless times, have had their offices bombed, yet they still went and published new drawings of the Prophet. All for what? To prove a point of freedom of speech? Is it really worth it losing your life over? When the warning signs were there that these extremist will stop at nothing to harm you and your colleagues over a very sensitive subject.

They had it coming.

What happened to them was messed up. But what did they expect, honestly.


They expected Muslims to get over it just like everybody else has.

They did this just last month:
Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting - Page 2 Charliehebdo5

and you don't see Christians going crazy against them, but I must say religion is a secondary issue here.

The issue the west's continued/history of imperialism against muslim states, and how people are using religion to rally around a general feeling of discontent.

France has a terrible history with North Africans, and that has caused a lot of this. People, already feeling disenfranchised, will always react worse when they feel what little they have is under attack.

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Post by Shed Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:09 am

Betty La Fea wrote:
@Shed wrote:
@S wrote:You talk about freedom of speech and no censorship.

Then tell me why is there an anti-racism code ?


There ought not to be. There certainly isn't in the country I live in.

Obviously I don't support racial prejudices or their airings, but one of the absolute fundamentals of a free society is that one supports the legality of things he or she might not necessarily support in practice. Again, when no one being offended or no person's feelings being hurt becomes a prerequisite for free speech, it's not 'free' at all.



There most certainly should be laws that deal with racist speech because racism, by nature, incites people.

The same way you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, because it creates an imminent danger so should racist speech be labeled.


So might calling someone ugly, or fat, or saying they have a bad haircut, and so on and so on. Should people be banned from insulting other people then? You've said a number of highly critical things about Juan Mata, for example; things that, were he to see, could very well offend him and may even cause him to react against you over them. Should you be legally barred from saying them as a result? And if not, why is that any different from insulting a person over race? How about criticising things in general? What if Bob insults Bill's favourite TV show and Bill reacts badly over it? Or if Jim says he hates John's favourite band and John decides he needs wising up over it? How about if Jen repeatedly rebukes Jill's makeup of choice, and Jill decides she just won't put up with it anymore? Shall we start banning all of those things too? Cause that's precisely your argument.

When you start deciding what rights an individual should be allowed to have based on how other people may react to the exercise of those rights, your society is the farthest thing from free as you can get.

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Post by Nishankly Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:11 am

@sportsczy wrote:unbelievable that people think that "they had it coming"... makes me feel like downgrading my evaluation of the IQ of posters. For some, i didn't think i could go lower. But i guess i was wrong Laughing


I really dont know how to respond to this without offending anyone.

Lets just say, Your current thought is exactly what the Hebdo employees must have thought while making these cartoons.

You guys need to open you eyes and realize the extent to which the Terrorists can go based on such little issues and its not like Hebdo is the first victim.
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Post by rwo power Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:19 am

Well, but bowing to terrorists is the worst thing one can do - that way you give them more and more power. You need to stand up against terrorists, unmask them and then punish them according to the law.

If you bow down to terrorists, you will soon have no rights at all anymore.
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Post by Nishankly Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:21 am

Since you guys don't deal with Terrorism everyday, Its clear you have no idea the extent to which they can reach.

Shows how the posters, whom your angry with Sports come from Asian and middle east backgrounds compared to ones trying to talk logic.

There is no logic.
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Post by Nishankly Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:23 am

@rwo power wrote:Well, but bowing to terrorists is the worst thing one can do - that way you give them more and more power. You need to stand up against terrorists, unmask them and then punish them according to the law.

If you bow down to terrorists, you will soon have no rights at all anymore.


Very true but you come about certain ways where you don't put your own blood in danger. Those guys will stop at nothing.

They killed 150 kids below the age of 16 2 weeks ago because their fathers were in the army.
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Post by Guest Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:26 am

@Shed wrote:
Betty La Fea wrote:
@Shed wrote:


There ought not to be. There certainly isn't in the country I live in.

Obviously I don't support racial prejudices or their airings, but one of the absolute fundamentals of a free society is that one supports the legality of things he or she might not necessarily support in practice. Again, when no one being offended or no person's feelings being hurt becomes a prerequisite for free speech, it's not 'free' at all.



There most certainly should be laws that deal with racist speech because racism, by nature, incites people.

The same way you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, because it creates an imminent danger so should racist speech be labeled.


So might calling someone ugly, or fat, or saying they have a bad haircut, and so on and so on. Should people be banned from insulting other people then? You've said a number of highly critical things about Juan Mata, for example; things that, were he to see, could very well offend him and may even cause him to react against you over them. Should you be legally barred from saying them as a result? And if not, why is that any different from insulting a person over race? How about criticising things in general? What if Bob insults Bill's favourite TV show and Bill reacts badly over it? Or if Jim says he hates John's favourite band and John decides he needs wising up over it? How about if Jen repeatedly rebukes Jill's makeup of choice, and Jill decides she just won't put up with it anymore? Shall we start banning all of those things too? Cause that's precisely your argument.

When you start deciding what rights an individual should be allowed to have based on how other people may react to the exercise of those rights, your society is the farthest thing from free as you can get.



Thing is a fat person is not defined by their fatness, they were not born with it, and it is something they can readily change.  Beauty and ugliness is subjective, and even then that is something they could readily change.

The only change someone whose a race you don't like could undertake is literally death. Humans are not people who can say "I don't like such and such, so leave it at that", we will always go further and say "I don't like this, and they should not be allowed to live here", and when that speech goes unchecked you have a much bigger problem on your hand.

Absolute freedom is nothing more than anarchy, and as somebody who has had the misfortune of having been to Somalia, and seen in action how terrible civilization becomes when it descends into madness the further south you go into the country, nobody really wants that. What we choose to uphold in the west is a person's idea to speak on ideas fair things which can be debated and improved upon for the betterment of society. Racism does not further society, so it is not what we would choose to protect in the traditional western sense.

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Post by rwo power Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:32 am

@Nishy

Well, on the other hand - could it be that people easily complying to what terrorists demand actually gave them so much power that you now have to be afraid what to say or do in your area?

I refuse to bow to such criminals. In fact, I plan to draw a little myself and send the stuff to Le Monde for their perusal. The more people stand up, the less can terrorists do against them. If there is only one magazine publishing stuff like this, it is an easy target. But if all papers and media publish caricatures and satire, their voice can't be silenced.

As I'm German I know what it means to stay silent for to long - this lead to the horrors of the Third Reich. It is necessary to stand up in masses, then there are simply too many targets to get them all.

Let me quote Martin Niemöller:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
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Post by Nishankly Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:40 am

Its not about exactly being quite and oblivious to everything, Its about being a bit more calculated and clever.

Random jibes against them will not do anything other put you in a compromised position. There is no other way of ending this other than what the US ( a bit more meticulous ) did lets be honest.

We don't much to disturb these terror groups with paparazzi, Our armies and defense forces do the talking.
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Post by rwo power Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:54 am

Well, problem is that the approach with armies isn't too clever either, especially when it leads to firearms, grenades and other stuff ending up in the hands of the terrorists.

And obviously the caricatures and satire hurt them badly, or they wouldn't react that violently.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:59 am

Terrorism is a crime, not an act of war, it should be handled by police forces, they handle dealing with the guilty better than the Army, who tend to be too big on collateral damage.
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Post by Kaladin Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:15 am

The biggest threat posed to non-extremist, non-fundamentalist Muslims come from the Muslim extremists and fundamentalists.
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Post by S Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:20 am

@Shed wrote:I support the right of individuals to say and write what they want, regardless of whether or not I agree with its content. You telling people to not publish or say potentially controversial or offensive things if they don't want to precipitate a violent, potentially fatal reaction against themselves, is the equivalent of telling a woman she shouldn't wear a short skirt or a low-cut top if she doesn't want to get raped, or that people shouldn't buy and own nice things if they don't want to get robbed, or that a person shouldn't drive a nice car if they don't want to be carjacked, or that parents shouldn't let their children play outside if they don't want them to get kidnapped, and on and on and on

Eh ? Absolutely no correlation at all.Sounds like you're stereotyping here.I dont know if you're referring to 'you' in third person but i'm certainly not suggesting those things at all.Its how the society is in certain countries and that is what i'm touching upon.
Its not a question of freedom of speech.When it comes to contentious issues like this,some views must be well respected or just left as it is rather than making a mockery of it because you know,there are a lot of sensitive people in this world.Some just dont know how to take a joke and religious jokes have come under as much scrutiny as racist jokes these days.


And let's not pretend this is some wanton attack on 2 billion 'peaceful' people.The only reason the cartoon had reason to be published in the first place is because for the people it's targeted at (the insecure, touchy, validation-needy fundamentalists), the religion has nothing to do with peace and absolutely everything to do with control. Had the extent of Islam been a few billion people practising their ideology, kneeling down on a rug and praying towards Mecca everyday and so forth, what reason would anyone have to take issue with it in the first place? It's because it's not. For the very vocal, very violent minority, it's about intimidation and coercion and compulsory compliance. And those on the end of it will not retreat an inch to placate them.

And what did they(Hebdo) manage to achieve in the end ?
Thats right,just more inter-religious hatred and discrimination ultimately putting Muslims' lives under misery in European countries.
Dat freedom of speech has served its purpose.

There ought not to be. There certainly isn't in the country I live in.

Obviously I don't support racial prejudices or their airings, but one of the absolute fundamentals of a free society is that one supports the legality of things he or she might not necessarily support in practice. Again, when no one being offended or no person's feelings being hurt becomes a prerequisite for free speech, it's not 'free' at all.

So what you're saying is you dont racially discriminate anyone yourself but you wont get in the way of his/her's 'freedom of speech'.So basically you're 'ok' with racial abuse.Good to know you.

Also an Italian politician got banned for six months for a racist comment on a black guy.And this politician happens to be the FIGC president.

Freedom of speech tho.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:52 am

@nishy. I've lived in the middle east and have operated in countries that the US warned me about as a US citizen. My father is middle eastern. So i know exactly what i'm dealing with here... and i give them absolutely nothing. I don't bow down to them and i don't change how i think or operate. Did i hire professional protection? Of course. Since i was a US businessman i had to regardless of my origins. But i told them to frakk themselves even though i was threatened multiple times.

Once you start compromising yourself to avoid being a target of terrorists, you're doing exactly what they want you to.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:59 am

you realize that white and black supremists are allowed to speak freely in the US... and what they say is disgusting.  But it's their right as long as they don't break the law.  Freedom of Speech is one of the backbones of the US constitution and we don't compromise it for anyone... even if we are disgusted by their message.  For the 1% negative consequences of it, you have 99% of great rewards.  You take the little bad so that you can enjoy the good.

If you start making exceptions for whatever the reason, you're lessening your society.  The US did that after 9/11 with the Patriot Act and we paid the consequences.  Thankfully, the US has taken steps to correct the mistakes that were made as a result of compromising on its ideals.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:07 am

@rwo power wrote:
Let me quote Martin Niemöller:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
Wonderful quote and spot on.  People, as in you and me, shape societies.... we're the most powerful group.  Dictators, terrorists, etc. take control because the people allow them to...  and that's why most countries under dictatorial, military and/or secular regimes work so hard to keep the people from forming groups and/or getting educated.  The dumber and more fragmented they keep the people, the more secure they are in their power.
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Post by RED Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:05 am

@sportsczy wrote:unbelievable that people think that "they had it coming"... makes me feel like downgrading my evaluation of the IQ of posters. For some, i didn't think i could go lower. But i guess i was wrong Laughing


Cmon, you know how many threats the artists got. I don't understand why you're questioning people's IQ when common sense should let you know these terrorist were targeting them.
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Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting - Page 2 Empty Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

Post by RED Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:14 am

Betty La Fea wrote:
@RED wrote:
@S wrote:Those cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo wasnt particularly smart was it ?
Forget extremists,religious jokes in general arent well received by people especially in Asian countries.Religion is a sensitive issue and we're talking about a faith followed by over 3 billion people the world over and which they consider it as a passion.
Dont tell me Muslims in general werent irked when they released those cartoons mocking the prophet let alone these terrorist groups.
I'm sure all Muslims condemn these barbaric attacks.Only narrow minded Muslims wouldnt.Ultimately its Muslim civilians themselves that will be subject to discrimination and hatred probably across entire Europe.


Exactly how I look at it.

Why did they feel the need to publish provocative drawings that will enrage millions upon millions of people including a bunch of terrorists, and in turn put their lives at risk.

Yes freedom of speech is all well and good, but with limitations. They knew these drawings would stir up emotions, they knew what type of reactions it will evoke, they've been threatened countless times, have had their offices bombed, yet they still went and published new drawings of the Prophet. All for what? To prove a point of freedom of speech? Is it really worth it losing your life over? When the warning signs were there that these extremist will stop at nothing to harm you and your colleagues over a very sensitive subject.

They had it coming.

What happened to them was messed up. But what did they expect, honestly.


They expected Muslims to get over it just like everybody else has.

They did this just last month:
Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting - Page 2 Charliehebdo5

and you don't see Christians going crazy against them, but I must say religion is a secondary issue here.

The issue the west's continued/history of imperialism against muslim states, and how people are using religion to rally around a general feeling of discontent.

France has a terrible history with North Africans, and that has caused a lot of this. People, already feeling disenfranchised, will always react worse when they feel what little they have is under attack.


Christians don't go crazy because illistrutations of Jesus is common. In plays, movies, pendants, etc. While in Islam, it's completely forbidden to have any illustration of the Prophet. That's why a lot of Muslims felt offended by the drawings, especially the extremists who took it abhorable levels, as per. No matter what kind of freedom of speech you have, you shouldn't take it to that level knowing the kind of insensitivity and outrage it will cause.

And the tension towards Muslims in France were already high before this incident, this is going to escalate it to another level.

#Killallmuslims was already trending over there today. Just crazy. Hopefully the decent French people can understand and not be ignorant enough to attack good honest Muslim people who have no affiliation with the scumbags who killed the cartoonists and 2 cops (one of the cops was a Muslim too).


Last edited by RED on Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:17 am; edited 2 times in total
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Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting - Page 2 Empty Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

Post by DuringTheWar Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:14 am

I know some Muslims that don't believe in free speech, they've admitted that simple. They aren't humanists that believe you have an inherent right to do that, and that goes for some other behaviours westerners also ascribe rights to. I'm not saying it's a bad thing but it's their thing, it doesn't take a genius to notice a clash here.

But i'll say this as well, it's the easiest thing in the world to preach free speech, until someone says something abominable aimed at you. Then aside from religion, all manner of people suddenly get jittery, feminists, and other civil rights movements, I've seen members of everyone of these groups as well as normal people on social media say to hell with free speech when all of sudden it's THEM on trial. Ffs twitter is full of people reporting people, and not only that but trying to get them arrested Laughing Obviously this is not equivalent to killing people, but as a moral point I seriously doubt there are as many real advocates of free speech as there are people that like to think they are real advocates of free speech. And I'd also like to raise a question, do you at any point draw the line? At what point where someone says something so depraved, so grotesque, the people he's targeting it at can reasonably be expected to snap?
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