Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

FennecFox7 wrote:OK, I think no one is getting what I am saying. Because you all know I'm right!!

TELL ME, why do muslims get shit on and its ok, but someone makes one small joke about a jew and the angry retaliation for the satire is suddenly "justified"?

You guys are prejudiced to the bone to muslims, but are in love with jews. Just check the hamas thread for proof. The hypocrisy is sickening

Because the west feels guilty for holocaust.

why? the majority of the "west" fought the Nazis..?
I suppose guilty for the anti-Semitism that was spread across Europe for decades leading up to the war.

Not dissimilar to the anti-Islamism that is growing today. Holocaust 2.0 in 50 years anyone?

Just for the record, I hate saudi arabia for despite being one of the most developed muslim countries, has the audacity to have such strict laws that paint EVERY muslim country as intolerant. These are not islamic laws, these are CULTURAL LAWS.

And to all the western supporters here, I'm in support of the west as much as you. In fact, I'd go further to say they should be changing the government in a GOOD way. Even Israel has got it right in the middle east concerning the laws, not counting the crazy racism in that country. But the west IS THE ONE WHO put those intolerant governments in the first place!!!. Who do you think the CIA put in power in iran? in every MENA country? dictators! when egypt was finally good with morsi, they went and changed it back to a dictatorship! OPEN YOUR EYES!

Have ANY of you been to morroco or algeria? It's basically europe. Women get jobs just as easily as men, hijab is not required, girls wear booty shorts, you can talk to girls and easily pick them up,etc etc.
MOST of you have no experience of these countries. And most of you need a lesson in history on what the europeans did to us. Why doesn't every northern morrocan and western algerian go back to spain because we got kicked out of spain in 1492???

Peccadillo wrote:suicide is not permissible Islamically so you're fresh out of luck Dante

btw, pretty low to insult him because English isn't his first language.

damn

as for the language lol , i didn't do it because of that . I think he's trolling , although i can't really prove it.. so yeah i decided to respond in kind and if i am mistaken , i guess it will show right? I could always apologise to him if i must.

I probably won't , just saying , perhaps if i feel like it

*edit:forgot to mention , i completely agree with your response to his btw. And just in case , let's clear something here , debate isn't the only means to critique. Satire is also means to critique . Like , what's the difference if i describe the contents of the cartoons in a mocking tone than actually draw ? It's just another dimension and that is it , the message i want to pass on is what matters , the meaning . He thinks satire is just mean or something , or at least that's what he would have us believe of him , going by his words that is.

That illustration is not just insulting to muslims, its insulting to us AMAZIGH, ARABS, TURKS, AND KURDS, because the majority of our population is muslim.

When people insult christians, western and northern europeans are offeneded, as well as south americans!!

FennecFox7 wrote:Just for the record, I hate saudi arabia for despite being one of the most developed muslim countries, has the audacity to have such strict laws that paint EVERY muslim country as intolerant. These are not islamic laws, these are CULTURAL LAWS.

They are not a developed country. Main cities might be, specially due to tourism and pilgrimage(which is basically tourism nowadays from their point of view) however rest of it is as developed as it was in the 40s.

There are hundreds of problems with Saudi Arabia. However the problem is with the other smaller, 3rd world countries which consider Saudi Arabia as the focal point of Islamic world. Most middle east hates Iran because Saudi Arabia asks them to. Countries follow the same laws which Saudi governs their own country with despite being backwards and barbaric.

Countries like Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia etc are well respected. No one would blame them or points a finger at them. They don't play the role of the sheep to Saudi. You are right with people generalising and including them while talking about the wrong things.

RealGunner wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:Just for the record, I hate saudi arabia for despite being one of the most developed muslim countries, has the audacity to have such strict laws that paint EVERY muslim country as intolerant. These are not islamic laws, these are CULTURAL LAWS.

They are not a developed country. Main cities might be, specially due to tourism and pilgrimage(which is basically tourism nowadays from their point of view) however rest of it is as developed as it was in the 40s.

There are hundreds of problems with Saudi Arabia. However the problem is with the other smaller, 3rd world countries which consider Saudi Arabia as the focal point of Islamic world. Most middle east hates Iran because Saudi Arabia asks them to. Countries follow the same laws which Saudi governs their own country with despite being backwards and barbaric.

Countries like Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia etc are well respected. No one would blame them or points a finger at them. They don't play the role of the sheep to Saudi. You are right with people generalising and including them while talking about the wrong things.

Thats the thing, its not the focal point, not anymore at least. The days of the umyyads and abbasaids are long gone. The people in power in saudi arabia are frauds and gangsters

Completely agree with you mate. But none of those countries will ever break their ties with Saudi because of the benefits they receive. No one considers morals in such situations.

FennecFox7 wrote:Just for the record, I hate saudi arabia for despite being one of the most developed muslim countries, has the audacity to have such strict laws that paint EVERY muslim country as intolerant. These are not islamic laws, these are CULTURAL LAWS.

And to all the western supporters here, I'm in support of the west as much as you. In fact, I'd go further to say they should be changing the government in a GOOD way. Even Israel has got it right in the middle east concerning the laws, not counting the crazy racism in that country. But the west IS THE ONE WHO put those intolerant governments in the first place!!!. Who do you think the CIA put in power in iran? in every MENA country? dictators! when egypt was finally good with morsi, they went and changed it back to a dictatorship! OPEN YOUR EYES!

Have ANY of you been to morroco or algeria? It's basically europe. Women get jobs just as easily as men, hijab is not required, girls wear booty shorts, you can talk to girls and easily pick them up,etc etc.
MOST of you have no experience of these countries. And most of you need a lesson in history on what the europeans did to us. Why doesn't every northern morrocan and western algerian go back to spain because we got kicked out of spain in 1492???

This is actually a good point. The entire terrorism debacle could be thought of as France's and England's short-sighted colonialist goals coming back to haunt them over the next 100 years. The Sykes-Picot agreement and English backing of wahhabi tribes in Arabia after WW1 are the cause of extremist islam causing such huge problems today.

If you guys read TE Lawrence's biography ( http://www.amazon.com/Lawrence-Arabia-Deceit-Imperial-Notable-ebook/dp/B00BH0VSPI/ ) the guy vehemently tries to convince the British government to not support either of these measures claiming that it will take 100 years to fix the mess this will cause. Obviously, he was ignored but now he comes off as a precog.

British responsible for the Palestine-Israel conflict and the rise of extremism.

Great.

Peccadillo wrote:+1 anti-Semitism or anti-ultraliberalism = social suicide.
anti-Islamism = congratulations you got the job.

can we change the "freedom of speech" phrase into "freedom of speech: western style" (better speak using gangnam style tone), that is more suitable in order not to confuse other people on earth

FennecFox7 wrote:That illustration is not just insulting to muslims, its insulting to us AMAZIGH, ARABS, TURKS, AND KURDS, because the majority of our population is muslim.

When people insult christians, western and northern europeans are offeneded, as well as south americans!!

I see .

Muslims are many , so we can't just draw or speak whatever we bloody like in our countries , that would be wrong because Muslims are many .

...

How about no.

And pls go , what if they are offended ? Who even said they don't in the first place ?? In any case, we like to satirize or insult ourselves , where's your problem .

I am pretty much getting tired of this 'debate' tbh. Is the content offensive ?? Don't look at it , don't hear it , don't sit down to watch it , nobody even asked you . Or how many you are

Let me put it into perspective and then i gtfo . Hypotheticaly speaking , say there are 1.5b Real Madrid fans , who say Ramos is the best CB that ever lived. What the rest of the football world is supposed to do , especially after all kinds of debates fail??

"oh they are many , we shouldn't this or that"

I hope you get it , religion is a very delicate matter yes and everybody should be allowed to believe in what they want as long as they do it in peace , but it remains a choice you make . And we can satirize choices alright , how many you/they are is quite besides the point really. Unless you're into fascism and all that , then yeah , we can and should satirize Muhammad , or Jesus , or Buddha , or Zeus , or Osiris , or Odin , or FSM , or Cthulu , or whatever we like , it's really none of any religion's business what we can say and what we can draw on a paper.

Dante wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:That illustration is not just insulting to muslims, its insulting to us AMAZIGH, ARABS, TURKS, AND KURDS, because the majority of our population is muslim.

When people insult christians, western and northern europeans are offeneded, as well as south americans!!

I see .

Muslims are many , so we can't just draw or speak whatever we bloody like in our countries , that would be wrong because Muslims are many .

...

How about no.

And pls go , what if they are offended ? Who even said they don't in the first place ?? In any case, we like to satirize or insult ourselves , where's your problem .

I am pretty much getting tired of this 'debate' tbh. Is the content offensive ?? Don't look at it , don't hear it , don't sit down to watch it , nobody even asked you . Or how many you are

Let me put it into perspective and then i gtfo . Hypotheticaly speaking , say there are 1.5b Real Madrid fans , who say Ramos is the best CB that ever lived. What the rest of the football world is supposed to do , especially after all kinds of debates fail??

"oh they are many , we shouldn't this or that"

I hope you get it , religion is a very delicate matter yes and everybody should be allowed to believe in what they want as long as they do it in peace , but it remains a choice you make . And we can satirize choices alright , how many you/they are is quite besides the point really. Unless you're into fascism and all that , then yeah , we can and should satirize Muhammad , or Jesus , or Buddha , or Zeus , or Osiris , or Odin , or FSM , or Cthulu , or whatever we like , it's really none of any religion's business what we can say and what we can draw on a paper.

No, because in those same countries, if you talk shit about christians and jews, you get crucified. So your point is invalid and hypocritical because you do not acknowledge that fact. And Islam is monothestic, grouped with those two religions. It has nothing to do with greek mythology.

Dante wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:That illustration is not just insulting to muslims, its insulting to us AMAZIGH, ARABS, TURKS, AND KURDS, because the majority of our population is muslim.

When people insult christians, western and northern europeans are offeneded, as well as south americans!!

I see .

Muslims are many , so we can't just draw or speak whatever we bloody like in our countries , that would be wrong because Muslims are many .

...

How about no.

And pls go , what if they are offended ? Who even said they don't in the first place ?? In any case, we like to satirize or insult ourselves , where's your problem .

I am pretty much getting tired of this 'debate' tbh. Is the content offensive ?? Don't look at it , don't hear it , don't sit down to watch it , nobody even asked you . Or how many you are

Let me put it into perspective and then i gtfo . Hypotheticaly speaking , say there are 1.5b Real Madrid fans , who say Ramos is the best CB that ever lived. What the rest of the football world is supposed to do , especially after all kinds of debates fail??

"oh they are many , we shouldn't this or that"

I hope you get it , religion is a very delicate matter yes and everybody should be allowed to believe in what they want as long as they do it in peace , but it remains a choice you make . And we can satirize choices alright , how many you/they are is quite besides the point really. Unless you're into fascism and all that , then yeah , we can and should satirize Muhammad , or Jesus , or Buddha , or Zeus , or Osiris , or Odin , or FSM , or Cthulu , or whatever we like , it's really none of any religion's business what we can say and what we can draw on a paper.

up to you, my advice, be careful when you going outside from your country with your mentality "who cares"

Guest, alot of GL users think that their countries are hippie centrals compared to muslim countries. They live in a bubble they created through the comfort of their own house. I guarantee you if you chant "I hate jesus" in Texas, hell will rain down on you.

FennecFox7 wrote:Guest, alot of GL users think that their countries are hippie centrals compared to muslim countries. They live in a bubble they created through the comfort of their own house. I guarantee you if you chant "I hate jesus" in Texas, hell will rain down on you.

FennecFox7, we as non-westerner already give several advices, we already do our duty in helping other human (westerner), if they don't want to listen, is up to them

one of the fact that we know as non-westerner, we can't compete with westerner when it comes to hypocrisy, they are the king (sorry for other westerner that are not hypocrite to listen this)

guest_07 wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:Guest, alot of GL users think that their countries are hippie centrals compared to muslim countries. They live in a bubble they created through the comfort of their own house. I guarantee you if you chant "I hate jesus" in Texas, hell will rain down on you.

FennecFox7, we as non-westerner already give several advices, we already do our duty in helping other human (westerner), if they don't want to listen, is up to them

one of the fact that we know as non-westerner, we can't compete with westerner when it comes to hypocrisy, they are the king (sorry for other westerner that are not hypocrite to listen this)

I'm as american as any. So I definitely consider myself a westerner. I am just proud of my roots. And this thread is really messed up with the opinions given here

FennecFox7 wrote:

guest_07 wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:Guest, alot of GL users think that their countries are hippie centrals compared to muslim countries. They live in a bubble they created through the comfort of their own house. I guarantee you if you chant "I hate jesus" in Texas, hell will rain down on you.

FennecFox7, we as non-westerner already give several advices, we already do our duty in helping other human (westerner), if they don't want to listen, is up to them

one of the fact that we know as non-westerner, we can't compete with westerner when it comes to hypocrisy, they are the king (sorry for other westerner that are not hypocrite to listen this)

I'm as american as any. So I definitely consider myself a westerner. I am just proud of my roots. And this thread is really messed up with the opinions given here

sorry for that, FennecFox7

then, i should use "selfish westerner" term in order not to make it stereotype or generalize

Thankfully we have you FennecFox7 and guest07 to enlighten us. Tell me more about how Islam's god is the one true god and how more legit and real than any god of the ancient pantheon he is

As for you guest07 , your perception of someone who wants to live freely without restrictions or fear , or opression of any kind , is 'who cares'?

...

The rest you said are total jibberish , i don't even bother . But just for your information , if i want to leave my country for whatever reason , it will be for a country that i won't have to fear for what i say btw , so as you can imagine , experiencing the Middle Ages anywhere in the Middle East will never be in my list in the first place

Dante wrote:Thankfully we have you FennecFox7 and guest07 to enlighten us. Tell me more about how Islam's god is the one true god and how more legit and real than any god of the ancient pantheon he is

As for you guest07 , your perception of someone who wants to live freely without restrictions or fear , or opression of any kind , is 'who cares'?

...

The rest you said are total jibberish , i don't even bother . But just for your information , if i want to leave my country for whatever reason , it will be for a country that i won't have to fear for what i say btw , so as you can imagine , experiencing the Middle Ages anywhere in the Middle East will never be in my list in the first place

& you still feel secure in western country with your attitude " who cares other feeling"?

terrorism have no boundaries, mind you

& you with your attitude " who cares other feeling" also part of the catalyst that ignites the terrorism

however, happy new year dante

PM if you're trolling , please

i want you to teach me

Dante wrote:PM if you're trolling , please

i want you to teach me

i'm suck in trolling, i always stay away from doing it

you want me to teach what?

FennecFox7 wrote:No, because in those same countries, if you talk shit about christians and jews, you get crucified. So your point is invalid and hypocritical because you do not acknowledge that fact. And Islam is monothestic, grouped with those two religions. It has nothing to do with greek mythology.

Huh? At least here you can draw satire about the Pope, Christianity etc as much as you like and if there are Christians who take offense, they will not go around and kill whoever did it, but possibly start a lawsuit, after which either the caricature in question has to be deleted (and it is always about single cases, not about satire in a whole) or not, depending on the decision of the court. (And usually there are only lawsuits if a certain living person is directly insulted - Jesus, God or whatever are fair game).

yeah sorry but Jesus has copped it a lot worse than Muhammad ever has in the West.
Which is still haram by the way as it is to insult any of the prophets..

This gets a free pass by most Mulims including the radicals, yet insults to Muhammad do not (by the radicals).. for obvious reasons I suppose, but lets get real - from a theological perspective, what is the punishment for insulting Muhammad in any way you want (when outside of Sharia)? The punishment by man upon man is actually nothing.. The Qu'ran talks about punishment in the afterlife, but not in this life. In fact the Qu'ran teaches restraint, from a Muslims perspective excercising restraint will in theory be rewarding in the after-life no?

Again.. we come back to the Hadith and why it is the crux of every problem within Islam and the Muslim ideology.

Quran 3:186
You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination.

Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:270:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative.

Yet again Quran teaches restraint and virtue, hadith teaches vengeance and "wickedness". Qu'ran teaches to practice restraint and you will be rewarded, Hadith teaches that the prophet ordered somebody to be killed for blasphemy - and mainstream sunni ideology is to follow the sunnah (to do as the prophet did).

You want to get to the core of the problem with Islam internally and without blaming the west, look no further than Hadith.

However, to those haters (rwo, sports) the issue I and many others is not in dispute to the problem (Islamic radicals) but it is the response to this incident in defending the Hebdo comics, which in my opinion contribute nothing to a harmonious society and should also be condemned (to a lesser degree than violent attacks, obviously).

It is also evident that anti-Islamic sentiment is now clearly on the rise with so many morons blaming Muslims and Islam for the actions of a few.... so quickly have the actions of far-right extremism been forgotten, an ideology which has still caused the largest terror attack Europe has seen in this millennium.

I guess I need to make one thing clear - what I hate are the people who use religion to kill, suppress women and other persons, who use it to infringe me in my rights that the laws of the county in which I'm living give me and who do horrible crimes in the name of religion.

I have no beef at all with people who carry on their religion and don't bother me with it, but when people who are (usually fanatic) followers of religion try to attack me or silence me, then I will not get intimidated, but I will talk back. And by the way - I *talk* back and don't use violence (unless someone would attack me violently - then I would have no qualms whatsoever to act in self-defense).

That I consider religion in itself an outdated concept is something else and totally unrelated to the Islam, as that is my view in Christianity, Judaism and whatever, too.

I would prefer religions to completely disappear from the world in all flavours as it is much too easy to abuse them to rally big numbers of people and turn them into mindless killing machines, which is helped by forms of religion that do not allow dissent and require people to follow them by the letter without questioning them.

Peccadillo wrote:yeah sorry but Jesus has copped it a lot worse than Muhammad ever has in the West.
Which is still haram by the way as it is to insult any of the prophets..

This gets a free pass by most Mulims including the radicals, yet insults to Muhammad do not (by the radicals).. for obvious reasons I suppose, but lets get real - from a theological perspective, what is the punishment for insulting Muhammad in any way you want (when outside of Sharia)? The punishment by man upon man is actually nothing.. The Qu'ran talks about punishment in the afterlife, but not in this life. In fact the Qu'ran teaches restraint, from a Muslims perspective excercising restraint will in theory be rewarding in the after-life no?

Again.. we come back to the Hadith and why it is the crux of every problem within Islam and the Muslim ideology.

Quran 3:186
You will surely be tested in your possessions and in yourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But if you are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters [worthy] of determination.

Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:270:
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative.

Yet again Quran teaches restraint and virtue, hadith teaches vengeance and "wickedness". Qu'ran teaches to practice restraint and you will be rewarded, Hadith teaches that the prophet ordered somebody to be killed for blasphemy - and mainstream sunni ideology is to follow the sunnah (to do as the prophet did).

You want to get to the core of the problem with Islam internally and without blaming the west, look no further than Hadith.

However, to those haters (rwo, sports) the issue I and many others is not in dispute to the problem (Islamic radicals) but it is the response to this incident in defending the Hebdo comics, which in my opinion contribute nothing to a harmonious society and should also be condemned (to a lesser degree than violent attacks, obviously).

It is also evident that anti-Islamic sentiment is now clearly on the rise with so many morons blaming Muslims and Islam for the actions of a few.... so quickly have the actions of far-right extremism been forgotten, an ideology which has still caused the largest terror attack Europe has seen in this millennium.

Thats not entirely true tho. There are strong and weak Hadith, which is true, but they aren't the problem the biggest problem is culture being involved in this.

There are also Hadith of where prophet Muhammad was insult by people, but he himself never took action, example theres a Hadith that talks about a non-muslim girl throwing garbage on him overtime he walked by her place, but he never questioned her and when she got ill he was one of the first ones to visit her. Another one when he was going into a city/village of non-muslim to preach Islam and god told him that they would harm him and if they did he would wipe out the village, he still went through and when they spoke down to him and told him to leave they threw rocks at him, which he then made sure no blood of his hit the ground till he was out of the village. If you'd like i could post these Hadith's.

it comes down to how someone interrupts certain things from the Qu'ran or a Hadith, which is the biggest problem even Islamic scholars differ on certain subjects. However its still good to go speak to scholar if you want answers as they would most likely be the knowledgeable one.