Semi-Final: Argentina Vs Netherlands

I think the fact that BMI was limping suggests that he was injured, so there that's why he was subbed at halftime

The Franchise wrote:

Art Morte wrote:A disappointing game, but with the attacking players the best players in both teams, I had a feeling both managers will take a cautious approach to quell those attacking players.

I thought Van Gaal made a mistake with his substitutions and XI:

- De Jong shouldn't have started if he wasn't fit to play the entire match.

- Indi didn't have a good game, but subbing a CB out at half-time is a wasted substitution, even if he's on a yellow.

- Subbing RVP off with the penalties looming.

Cillessen didn't save a single penalty even though he probably should have saved two of them. Had Van Gaal had a substitution left, he could have put Krul in goal again and I think he would have saved at least one of the penalties.

Disagree. De Jong was fit enough to play, if the game was different he might of stayed on. But Van Gaal saw how Messi wasnt bothered defending him and he was always free. Problem is De Jong isnt a progressive passer, Classsie is. That sub was actually excellent, it gave Holland more control straight away.

Saying BMI didnt have a good game was putting it lightly. He didnt cover Blind at all and that side was the only way Argentina were getting through.

RVP was ineffective and dead tired after "just" 90 minutes. He wanted to win the game, not go to pens.

Agree mostly, but I get the sense if Van Gaal really wanted to go for it he would've switched to 4-3-3 and put Kuyt as a LW. Knowing that without Krul penalties were almost certainly a loss he should have tried a bit harder to win the match in open play. As it was I got the sense both sides gave up in the second half of extra time.

Ah well. I think the Netherlands did well for themselves this tournament given that most people didn't expect them to even get out of the group stage, let alone make the semi-finals. I'm pretty happy though a bit dejected right now. This team is going to be very good in 2 years and incredibly good in 4 years.

El Cujo wrote:
This team is going to be very good in 2 years and incredibly good in 4 years.

You surely have a better overall idea than me, but Robben was carrying this team at times and he's not going to be any better in a 2 or 4 years' time. Nor will RVP, Huntelaar, De Jong, Sneijder. There were some good performances by the younger players, but I don't know if they're able to fill the boots of the mentioned players.

RealGunner wrote:Poor match overall. Not unexpectedly though.

That's what happens when both teams have similar strength and weaknesses.

Very good point

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Sabella has proved me wrong with everyone but Fernandez. What a GOAT. Would be a 10 star scout on FM

Yes like you, I and some others here have said before that finally Argentina had a quality tactician and that made a telling difference.

The three emblems of this team that has made the final for Argentina after 24 years are Messi, Sabella and Mascherano.

As a Barca fan I may have criticized Mascherano for his performances as a defender but for Argentina he is nothing short of a blessing. Messi may be a genius but he needs a tiger alongside him and that tiger is 'The Little Boss'. I am almost sure Mascherano will be named among the ten players in contention for the golden ball.

Fußball wrote:Man, I'm glad I wasn't born to Brazilian parents. Imagine losing 1-7 at home and then watching your fiercest rival play a final in your backyard.

Thanks mom.

Thanks dad.

Ever since we began discussing WC 2014 in Brazil I had started commenting just how it would be like if Argentina played the final on Brazilian soil and even more won. From both perspectives it's an out of the world experience. Brazil in football terms couldn't hate anything more than this and Argentina couldn't love anything more than this.

Hapless_Hans wrote:
It's the two best teams facing off

Yes perhaps we could agree Germany have been the best team of this world cup but even as an Argentina fan I wouldn't call us the second best team. In fact this world cup perhaps did not even have a second best team because the teams, especially the big teams, were about as bad as one could ever have imagined them to be.

Zealous wrote:Holland sucked all tournament tbh, one of the easiest routes to the semi's in recent memory.

If Holland had an easy route to the semis then what did Argentina have? Virtually a royal path carved out for us even before a ball had been kicked.

Actually I think Holland ran out of steam.. We all knew the squad was weak and they spent their maximum in the group stages itself. Not scoring for along time can be very damaging to a team's confidence. Holland really should have scored in normal time against Costa Rica. When you can't score against a minnow maybe somewhere in your mind the belief that you can do it against an elite team is less.

The Franchise wrote:Wasnt pretty but I was hugely impressed by Argentina. A stark contrast to Brazil, Argentina showed tremendous discipline and organisation.

They defended in their 4411 and remained solid. Van Gaal made some very smart subs, but magnificent performances from the likes of Mascherano, Garay and Rojo got them their well deserved clean sheet.

Perez and Biglia were immense may I also add.

Not a fantastic game, but tactically interesting.

I completely agree but what do you think of Holland? Were they in any way less deserving?

Zealous wrote:First semi to finish 0-0 in World Cup history.

The game was terrible and added to last night's game I feel cheated out of watching two semi finals lol

The quarter finals and semi finals of this world cup have likely been the worst in the tournament's history. Let's hope the final makes up for it.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Mascherano should leave Barca so he can be a proper DM again, performances like that leave a bigger impact on me than it should because i haven't seen that Mascherano in years.

I agree but it is not happening.

Some players just need to get out of some places. For instance what is Muller doing in Bayern under Pep who doesn't fancy him when half the big teams in the world pray for someone like him?

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I think the biggest difference with Masche of 4 years ago is how much his passing range has improved. He played some balls this world cup that he would have never been able to during the past world cup. He is also (relatively) much more comfortable with the ball on his feet.

Barca might have made him a CB but they also made him a more complete player.

Yes very true. This thought has hit me several times. I used to think Mascherano was wasting himself at Barca which would impact his international career but his stint with us has helped him pick up things he didn't have earlier such as of course much improved passing and most importantly he hasn't lost one tiny bit of his erstwhile qualities in spite of playing out of his position for so long. Hats off to him!

The Franchise wrote:

Art Morte wrote:A disappointing game, but with the attacking players the best players in both teams, I had a feeling both managers will take a cautious approach to quell those attacking players.

I thought Van Gaal made a mistake with his substitutions and XI:

- De Jong shouldn't have started if he wasn't fit to play the entire match.

- Indi didn't have a good game, but subbing a CB out at half-time is a wasted substitution, even if he's on a yellow.

- Subbing RVP off with the penalties looming.

Cillessen didn't save a single penalty even though he probably should have saved two of them. Had Van Gaal had a substitution left, he could have put Krul in goal again and I think he would have saved at least one of the penalties.

Disagree. De Jong was fit enough to play, if the game was different he might of stayed on. But Van Gaal saw how Messi wasnt bothered defending him and he was always free. Problem is De Jong isnt a progressive passer, Classsie is. That sub was actually excellent, it gave Holland more control straight away.

Saying BMI didnt have a good game was putting it lightly. He didnt cover Blind at all and that side was the only way Argentina were getting through.

RVP was ineffective and dead tired after "just" 90 minutes. He wanted to win the game, not go to pens.

Completely agree dani. I don't think van Gaal did anything wrong.

Art Morte wrote:

El Cujo wrote:
This team is going to be very good in 2 years and incredibly good in 4 years.

You surely have a better overall idea than me, but Robben was carrying this team at times and he's not going to be any better in a 2 or 4 years' time. Nor will RVP, Huntelaar, De Jong, Sneijder. There were some good performances by the younger players, but I don't know if they're able to fill the boots of the mentioned players.

Robben will only be 32 at the Euros and as long as he can avoid injury I think he'll still have a big impact.

Then you likely add Strootman, van Ginkel, van der Wiel, Veltman (I know he was already there, but got no time despite being miles better than Indi) and Willems to the side as well. Guys like Locadia and Castaignos have time to prove themselves also, although I suspect GhostVP will still be the starting choice. Klaassen, Maher and Ziyech will all have a chance to prove themselves before then (though I suspect Maher will end up ruined if he is continued to be played deeper than he should be).


Clasie, Wijnaldum, Castaignos/Locadia/Huntelaar, Blind, Sneijder, Janmaat etc. (though Janmaat could start depending on if VDW can hold his newfound form or not).

I think something like this is what the team will look like come the Euros. Maybe Vlaar if he can hold on to his current form also. Hiddink likely switches back to the 4-3-3 that most of the players grew up playing, and this team is much better than the one we fielded at WC 2010...in theory. Heck, if those players were healthy it might have been better this year lol. That said the only thing that the Netherlands are lacking right now is a top class keeper but one may show up and Cillessen has more potential still.

Kishna to be a starter in 2016   

messixaviesta wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:
It's the two best teams facing off

Yes perhaps we could agree Germany have been the best team of this world cup but even as an Argentina fan I wouldn't call us the second best team. In fact this world cup perhaps did not even have a second best team because the teams, especially the big teams, were about as bad as one could ever have imagined them to be.

why wouldn't you be one of the two best teams?
You are in the final, and it's not like there were clearly better teams that went out unluckily.
France maybe but then they weren't that great when it mattered.

Don't think there have to be any caveats about this, a WC winning team rarely ever convincingly blows the opponent out of the park every game.
The competition is too tricky for that.

You won against Switzerland, Belgium, Holland. MAYBE you were lucky not to face one of other the hot South American teams, but then what difference does it make?
Holland beat Costa Rica, you beat Holland.
Brazil beat Chile and Colombia, we beat Brazil.

Why shouldn't we be considered the two best teams in the WC?

messixaviesta wrote:

Zealous wrote:First semi to finish 0-0 in World Cup history.

The game was terrible and added to last night's game I feel cheated out of watching two semi finals lol

The quarter finals and semi finals of this world cup have likely been the worst in the tournament's history. Let's hope the final makes up for it.

Agree my friend   

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Wasnt pretty but I was hugely impressed by Argentina. A stark contrast to Brazil, Argentina showed tremendous discipline and organisation.

They defended in their 4411 and remained solid. Van Gaal made some very smart subs, but magnificent performances from the likes of Mascherano, Garay and Rojo got them their well deserved clean sheet.

Perez and Biglia were immense may I also add.

Not a fantastic game, but tactically interesting.

I completely agree but what do you think of Holland? Were they in any way less deserving?

You mean, were Holland less deserving of the win?

Robben wrote:any's going to win the World Cup. No doubt about that. The Argentines will not stand a chance," kicker quoted him as saying.
Reflecting on the loss to Argentina, he said: "Penalties are not only a game of pure chance - we've shown that against Costa Rica. We did a very good job there, and were really successful.
"It didn't work out today during the penalties. We also had some bad luck but, sadly, that's part of football."
But despite the disappointment, Robben looked back on what he felt was a successful tournament for the Dutch, saying: "I am incredibly proud of what we have achieved. We presented ourselves really well."

Read more at http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/323049.html#QjYMOmh1VzeliYj9.99

Cry me a river

Robben

<----------

El Cujo wrote:

Art Morte wrote:

El Cujo wrote:
This team is going to be very good in 2 years and incredibly good in 4 years.

You surely have a better overall idea than me, but Robben was carrying this team at times and he's not going to be any better in a 2 or 4 years' time. Nor will RVP, Huntelaar, De Jong, Sneijder. There were some good performances by the younger players, but I don't know if they're able to fill the boots of the mentioned players.

Robben will only be 32 at the Euros and as long as he can avoid injury I think he'll still have a big impact.

Then you likely add Strootman, van Ginkel, van der Wiel, Veltman (I know he was already there, but got no time despite being miles better than Indi) and Willems to the side as well. Guys like Locadia and Castaignos have time to prove themselves also, although I suspect GhostVP will still be the starting choice. Klaassen, Maher and Ziyech will all have a chance to prove themselves before then (though I suspect Maher will end up ruined if he is continued to be played deeper than he should be).

VDW - De Vrij - Veltman - Willems
Strootman - van Ginkel
Klaassen
Robben - RVP - Memphis

Clasie, Wijnaldum, Castaignos/Locadia/Huntelaar, Blind, Sneijder, Janmaat etc. (though Janmaat could start depending on if VDW can hold his newfound form or not).

I think something like this is what the team will look like come the Euros. Maybe Vlaar if he can hold on to his current form also. Hiddink likely switches back to the 4-3-3 that most of the players grew up playing, and this team is much better than the one we fielded at WC 2010...in theory. Heck, if those players were healthy it might have been better this year lol. That said the only thing that the Netherlands are lacking right now is a top class keeper but one may show up and Cillessen has more potential still.

Who do you see replacing Robben in the long run? As talented as the younger members of this squad have shown themselves to be, he is still very much their main threat in attack and I don't see the likes of Memphis reaching his level.

ACMRox wrote:Who do you see replacing Robben in the long run? As talented as the younger members of this squad have shown themselves to be, he is still very much their main threat in attack and I don't see the likes of Memphis reaching his level.

You don't think Memphis has it in him? At 20 years old he came in and assisted then scored the winner against Australia looking dangerous all the while, and scored against Chile (great move by Robben, but still). He absolutely terrorized the Eredivisie, and if not for his immaturity probably could have done much better than his 12 goals and 7 assists which is very respectable for his first real full first team campaign). He definitely has the best chance of becoming a Robben like player -- he has the pace, dribbling ability and he has a better shot than Robben...he even has the selfishness for the most part. Actually I think he could be better than Robben if he hits his peak. He just has a better physical package and a better shot IMO.

With that said there are a number of really strong players coming up too like Zivkovic, Basacikoglu, Walian and van der Moot (these last two are probably 4 years away at least)...some are out and out strikers but who knows if they will move to wing or not. Basacikoglu especially has a lot of upside though not necessarily in the Robben mould. Still other attacking talent like Maher (as long as PSV stops ruining him by playing him deep), Klaassen, Ziyech, Castaignos, Locadia, Boetius, etc. I'm not really worried about finding offensive replacements for Robben because a world class talent will come out of one of the the players mentioned. It's just about finding the right manager (Hiddink is great) and playing the 4-3-3 again.

ACMRox wrote:

El Cujo wrote:

Art Morte wrote:


You surely have a better overall idea than me, but Robben was carrying this team at times and he's not going to be any better in a 2 or 4 years' time. Nor will RVP, Huntelaar, De Jong, Sneijder. There were some good performances by the younger players, but I don't know if they're able to fill the boots of the mentioned players.

Robben will only be 32 at the Euros and as long as he can avoid injury I think he'll still have a big impact.

Then you likely add Strootman, van Ginkel, van der Wiel, Veltman (I know he was already there, but got no time despite being miles better than Indi) and Willems to the side as well. Guys like Locadia and Castaignos have time to prove themselves also, although I suspect GhostVP will still be the starting choice. Klaassen, Maher and Ziyech will all have a chance to prove themselves before then (though I suspect Maher will end up ruined if he is continued to be played deeper than he should be).

VDW - De Vrij - Veltman - Willems
Strootman - van Ginkel
Klaassen
Robben - RVP - Memphis

Clasie, Wijnaldum, Castaignos/Locadia/Huntelaar, Blind, Sneijder, Janmaat etc. (though Janmaat could start depending on if VDW can hold his newfound form or not).

I think something like this is what the team will look like come the Euros. Maybe Vlaar if he can hold on to his current form also. Hiddink likely switches back to the 4-3-3 that most of the players grew up playing, and this team is much better than the one we fielded at WC 2010...in theory. Heck, if those players were healthy it might have been better this year lol. That said the only thing that the Netherlands are lacking right now is a top class keeper but one may show up and Cillessen has more potential still.

Who do you see replacing Robben in the long run? As talented as the younger members of this squad have shown themselves to be, he is still very much their main threat in attack and I don't see the likes of Memphis reaching his level.

Willems can not defend to save his life. I think Blind will play LB or BMI or Kongolo will play. Kongolo is the biggest Dutch Defensive talent. He will definitely break in. Veltman will grown and don't rule our Gouweleeu or Denswil.

I think most probably the defense will look like -

Jamaar/VDW/Van Rhijn De Vrij(Gouweleew) Veltman(Kongolo/Denswil) Willems/Blind/BMI

Midfield will look definitely have Strootman as Box to Box player. The other 2 players could be anyone.

Klaassen won't play at CAM as he has no skill or creativity. Maybe a winger will converted to CAM or Ziyech or some new CAM will break out or we will play with 3 CM's.

De Jong is a favourite at DM but Clasie will grow as well.

I think it will be like -
Strootman Clasie/De Jong/Fer/Van Ginkel Ziyech/Wijnaldum/Maher

Attack will have Robben at RW and either of Hunter or RVP at ST. Promes, Boetius or Depay at LW.

Attack - Robben Hunter/RVP Boetius/Depay/Promes

Outsiders - Nouri(U-17 Ajax), Lens, Narsingh, Sneijder, Vlaar, etc.

Art Morte wrote:A disappointing game, but with the attacking players the best players in both teams, I had a feeling both managers will take a cautious approach to quell those attacking players.

I thought Van Gaal made a mistake with his substitutions and XI:

- De Jong shouldn't have started if he wasn't fit to play the entire match.

- Indi didn't have a good game, but subbing a CB out at half-time is a wasted substitution, even if he's on a yellow.

- Subbing RVP off with the penalties looming.

Cillessen didn't save a single penalty even though he probably should have saved two of them. Had Van Gaal had a substitution left, he could have put Krul in goal again and I think he would have saved at least one of the penalties.

I also thought VG would put Krul again for the pens....maybe its the subs being used and also the old 1 trick doesnt work twice once seen reason...

darixanboy wrote:Aging has nothing to do with age. Messi type players get everything at young age and they "age" early.  Awards and titles makes them age early

In world cup he didnt age though. He was great in all matches. Yesterday even Pele would not do anything better.  He was followed by holland players all the game. There was nothing he could do. But with this way he helps Argentina. Following Messi all game affected Holland,s game, they could not focus on their attack

Good post again darixanboy.... every player is different and I cant help but feel Messi is the type that 'age' earlier.... I definitely hope im wrong.

The Franchise wrote:

BarcaLearning wrote:

The Franchise wrote:The one thing I noticed, which doesnt surprise me, is just how poor Messi's conditioning is.

He was totally finished after 90 minutes, he was running on empty in that extra time...which in itself isnt totally shameful, but when you consider he only really moved with any true effort when he got the ball.

Dani I have been focusing on this for a few months now it is absolutely clear Messi is far from his best in terms of physique and overall it affects so many of his strengthens. Im suspecting its just natural aging + the injuries effect. IF thats true than I think Messi would need to change his game a bit and become more of a static player than in the past (in fact all his life), vastly different. What do you think about this?

Dont think its as simple as just natural aging. He is 27. He is just lazy and dont want to put in the work required. If you dont press for 2 years, dont train for it for 2 years...of course your not going to be able to do it whenever you want.

Static player? This isnt the early 90's, there is no room for these in modern football unless your playing CB and holding midfield. He needs to sort himself out. Nothing has eroded skill wise, but his physical level is holding him down.

Its too bad we can only know things of footballers from the media, since I find it hard to believe that he is become just lazy? Awards and titles erode one's hunger, but Messi doesnt seem the type that would be like this, and he gives me the impression that he still has it in him to want to win.... whether he is catching up by the effect of his laziness maybe last year + the injury we can only sepculate.... I hope so, knowing that if he continues to work hard again he will regain his physique.

ACMRox wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Art Morte wrote:A disappointing game, but with the attacking players the best players in both teams, I had a feeling both managers will take a cautious approach to quell those attacking players.

I thought Van Gaal made a mistake with his substitutions and XI:

- De Jong shouldn't have started if he wasn't fit to play the entire match.

- Indi didn't have a good game, but subbing a CB out at half-time is a wasted substitution, even if he's on a yellow.

- Subbing RVP off with the penalties looming.

Cillessen didn't save a single penalty even though he probably should have saved two of them. Had Van Gaal had a substitution left, he could have put Krul in goal again and I think he would have saved at least one of the penalties.

Disagree. De Jong was fit enough to play, if the game was different he might of stayed on. But Van Gaal saw how Messi wasnt bothered defending him and he was always free. Problem is De Jong isnt a progressive passer, Classsie is. That sub was actually excellent, it gave Holland more control straight away.

Saying BMI didnt have a good game was putting it lightly. He didnt cover Blind at all and that side was the only way Argentina were getting through.

RVP was ineffective and dead tired after "just" 90 minutes. He wanted to win the game, not go to pens.

Agree mostly, but I get the sense if Van Gaal really wanted to go for it he would've switched to 4-3-3 and put Kuyt as a LW. Knowing that without Krul penalties were almost certainly a loss he should have tried a bit harder to win the match in open play. As it was I got the sense both sides gave up in the second half of extra time.

Same above....

El Cujo wrote:

ACMRox wrote:Who do you see replacing Robben in the long run? As talented as the younger members of this squad have shown themselves to be, he is still very much their main threat in attack and I don't see the likes of Memphis reaching his level.

You don't think Memphis has it in him? At 20 years old he came in and assisted then scored the winner against Australia looking dangerous all the while, and scored against Chile (great move by Robben, but still). He absolutely terrorized the Eredivisie, and if not for his immaturity probably could have done much better than his 12 goals and 7 assists which is very respectable for his first real full first team campaign). He definitely has the best chance of becoming a Robben like player -- he has the pace, dribbling ability and he has a better shot than Robben...he even has the selfishness for the most part. Actually I think he could be better than Robben if he hits his peak. He just has a better physical package and a better shot IMO.

With that said there are a number of really strong players coming up too like Zivkovic, Basacikoglu, Walian and van der Moot (these last two are probably 4 years away at least)...some are out and out strikers but who knows if they will move to wing or not. Basacikoglu especially has a lot of upside though not necessarily in the Robben mould. Still other attacking talent like Maher (as long as PSV stops ruining him by playing him deep), Klaassen, Ziyech, Castaignos, Locadia, Boetius, etc. I'm not really worried about finding offensive replacements for Robben because a world class talent will come out of one of the the players mentioned. It's just about finding the right manager (Hiddink is great) and playing the 4-3-3 again.

Depay is a volume shooter. His shooting ability is much poorer than Robben. He shoots 100 times but scores 3-4 long rangers. He frustrates people more than C. Ronaldo in that regard. He also does not have Robben's intelligence.

I think he grow and mature but I am not sure if he will reach Robben's level. I like him and followed him for a while.

Promes is another guy who is very promising. He is breaking out similar to Depay. The LW spot will be fiercely contested although Promes primarly plays RW. Locadia, Boetius also are talented.

Personally I don't see any of the guys you mentioned with the 4 year slot breaking out. I see Nouri, Ajax U-17 definitely breaking out. Could be the next big CAM.