Lets Face it, Bayern is nowhere near Pep's Barca

harhar11 wrote:You are a Real Madrid fan, are you not? If you are not, you are making a impressive impression of one with the way you see only what you want to see.

You say that Bayern never get crucial decision in their favour, so I mention the offside 3 illegal goals that they scored against Barça. But you say that those were not crucial simply because they had 1(the handball on Alexis is never a penalty seeing as it's ball to hand) decision against them.

Let's stick to facts here. Piqué's handball came as early as the 14th minute, with the score still 0:0. That is a crucial decision not called. It could have been 2:0 after 25 minutes. Add in the handball that Alves made later on in the first half -- his hand was moving to the ball and his hand was in an unnatural position -- and it could have been 3:0 at half-time.

Müller's goal was not illegal, Gómez and Robben's goals were.

I've actually never once implied that Barcelona never were on the receiving end of poor decisions, oddly enough. Don't paint me in that light. Using the Inter match example, Motta was sent off before all of the incidents against Barcelona happened, hence that being the most crucial decision of the match.

I'd appreciate it if you showed clips of the other scenes you refer to. I've done the courtesy of posting gifs of scenes that I have referred to, it would be very gracious on your part to do the same.

Barcelona have had more crucial decisions go in their favour in comparison to Bayern. I used two quick examples, with the context of this statement beforehand:

Bayern never had crucial decisions go in their favour like Barcelona did

So how am I the hypocrite here?   

harhar11 wrote:

jibers wrote:Why has noone addressed Barcelona's away record? Nobody? Bayern were better at demolishing opposition. I don't see how you can compare them tbh and say Barcelona were a level above when the evidence points to the contrary. Bayern faced tougher opposition and did better. Bayern will go down as the greatest team since Ajax if they retain the cl so all this talk is irrelevant.

They have faced better opposition? Really? Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool back then were all better than Real Madrid, Dortmund, Juventus or Barça. Maybe not Arsenal, but the other's, imho, were..

And again, demolishing opposition? apart from the game against us, didn't we score more goals than Bayern in most round? In the round of 16, we scored 4 goals, they 3, in the quarter-finals we scored 6, they 4, in the semi-final we scored 3 and they 7, in the final we scored 3 and they 2.

Really, I think that the semi-final created this myth that they were better at demolishing opposition, when in truth Barça were probably better at that than Bayern, while Bayern were better defensively..

Again all this talk of better or worse is irrelevant. Pepcelona being amazing didn't stop Inter and Chelsea beating them. What matters now is if Bayern retain the cl. If they do that, being better than Barcelona is irrelevant. They would go down as the greatest team in modern football. Barcelona is not their goal, history is atm.

jibers wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

jibers wrote:Why has noone addressed Barcelona's away record? Nobody? Bayern were better at demolishing opposition. I don't see how you can compare them tbh and say Barcelona were a level above when the evidence points to the contrary. Bayern faced tougher opposition and did better. Bayern will go down as the greatest team since Ajax if they retain the cl so all this talk is irrelevant.

They have faced better opposition? Really? Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool back then were all better than Real Madrid, Dortmund, Juventus or Barça. Maybe not Arsenal, but the other's, imho, were..

And again, demolishing opposition? apart from the game against us, didn't we score more goals than Bayern in most round? In the round of 16, we scored 4 goals, they 3, in the quarter-finals we scored 6, they 4, in the semi-final we scored 3 and they 7, in the final we scored 3 and they 2.

Really, I think that the semi-final created this myth that they were better at demolishing opposition, when in truth Barça were probably better at that than Bayern, while Bayern were better defensively..

Again all this talk of better or worse is irrelevant. Pepcelona being amazing didn't stop Inter and Chelsea beating them. What matters now is if Bayern retain the cl. If they do that, being better than Barcelona is irrelevant. They would go down as the greatest team in modern football. Barcelona is not their goal, history is atm.

Isn't there a difference between better and greater ?

Valkyrja wrote:

jibers wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

They have faced better opposition? Really? Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool back then were all better than Real Madrid, Dortmund, Juventus or Barça. Maybe not Arsenal, but the other's, imho, were..

And again, demolishing opposition? apart from the game against us, didn't we score more goals than Bayern in most round? In the round of 16, we scored 4 goals, they 3, in the quarter-finals we scored 6, they 4, in the semi-final we scored 3 and they 7, in the final we scored 3 and they 2.

Really, I think that the semi-final created this myth that they were better at demolishing opposition, when in truth Barça were probably better at that than Bayern, while Bayern were better defensively..

Again all this talk of better or worse is irrelevant. Pepcelona being amazing didn't stop Inter and Chelsea beating them. What matters now is if Bayern retain the cl. If they do that, being better than Barcelona is irrelevant. They would go down as the greatest team in modern football. Barcelona is not their goal, history is atm.

Isn't there a difference between better and greater ?

There is. We can't know which team is better as they did not face each other. What we do know is Bayern gave Barcelona the worst semi fianl defeat in European cup history. If they retain it, they will be greater. Then the talk will be how Bayern is the best of all time.

jibers wrote:

Valkyrja wrote:

jibers wrote:

Again all this talk of better or worse is irrelevant. Pepcelona being amazing didn't stop Inter and Chelsea beating them. What matters now is if Bayern retain the cl. If they do that, being better than Barcelona is irrelevant. They would go down as the greatest team in modern football. Barcelona is not their goal, history is atm.

Isn't there a difference between better and greater ?

There is. We can't know which team is better as they did not face each other. What we do know is Bayern gave Barcelona the worst semi fianl defeat in European cup history. If they retain it, they will be greater. Then the talk will be how Bayern is the best of all time.

but that Barca was 2 levels below Pepcelona of 2009 and 11.

Valkyrja wrote:

jibers wrote:

Valkyrja wrote:

Isn't there a difference between better and greater ?

There is. We can't know which team is better as they did not face each other. What we do know is Bayern gave Barcelona the worst semi fianl defeat in European cup history. If they retain it, they will be greater. Then the talk will be how Bayern is the best of all time.

but that Barca was 2 levels below Pepcelona of 2009 and 11.

Again, we cannot say what team is better. Where barcelona not better than inter supposedly? All I'm saying is that if Bayern win the cl, they will go down as the greatest. You can't say a team is better when there is no way of verifying it.

if Bayern win the cl, they will go down as the greatest.

No they will not. there is a reason nobody talks about how great is Bayern comparing to other greats. they are not that good.

it's like Saying if CR wins another Golden ball he will go down the same as players like Zidane or Brazillian Ronaldo. in media maybe, but not in reality.

Pep's Barca at it's best was way better than Bayern under Heynckes or this season.

Mamad wrote:

if Bayern win the cl, they will go down as the greatest.

No they will not. there is a reason nobody talks about how great is Bayern comparing to other greats. they are not that good.

it's like Saying if CR wins another Golden ball he will go down the same as players like Zidane or Brazillian Ronaldo. in media maybe, but not in reality.

Pep's Barca at it's best was way better than Bayern under Heynckes or this season.

Greatness =/= best. If they win it they will have done what no club has done in the cl era. They are already the best Bayern side of all time. Maybe nobody talks about them because they've only done it for one season? I don't care what other people say tbh, my opinion is that if they retain it they will go down as the greatest.

Mamad wrote:

if Bayern win the cl, they will go down as the greatest.

No they will not. there is a reason nobody talks about how great is Bayern comparing to other greats. they are not that good.

it's like Saying if CR wins another Golden ball he will go down the same as players like Zidane or Brazillian Ronaldo. in media maybe, but not in reality.

Pep's Barca at it's best was way better than Bayern under Heynckes or this season.

out of curiosity, why wouldn't he?

Quite obvious no?

That Barca team fitted Pep system like a glove, they were the master at it. The fact pep is trying to play a similar style makes Bayern at a great disadvantage when comparing the two sides.

On the other hand Jupp Bayern vs Pep Barca 2011? i probably favor Bayern, because their style is just a bad matchup for Barca.

FilthyLuca wrote:

Mamad wrote:

if Bayern win the cl, they will go down as the greatest.

No they will not. there is a reason nobody talks about how great is Bayern comparing to other greats. they are not that good.

it's like Saying if CR wins another Golden ball he will go down the same as players like Zidane or Brazillian Ronaldo. in media maybe, but not in reality.

Pep's Barca at it's best was way better than Bayern under Heynckes or this season.

out of curiosity, why wouldn't he?

He is not as good as them. not even close.

Mamad wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:

Mamad wrote:

No they will not. there is a reason nobody talks about how great is Bayern comparing to other greats. they are not that good.

it's like Saying if CR wins another Golden ball he will go down the same as players like Zidane or Brazillian Ronaldo. in media maybe, but not in reality.

Pep's Barca at it's best was way better than Bayern under Heynckes or this season.

out of curiosity, why wouldn't he?

He is not as good as them. not even close.

brilliant analysis, but could you elaborate as to why you feel this way

FilthyLuca wrote:

Mamad wrote:

if Bayern win the cl, they will go down as the greatest.

No they will not. there is a reason nobody talks about how great is Bayern comparing to other greats. they are not that good.

it's like Saying if CR wins another Golden ball he will go down the same as players like Zidane or Brazillian Ronaldo. in media maybe, but not in reality.

Pep's Barca at it's best was way better than Bayern under Heynckes or this season.

out of curiosity, why wouldn't he?

Doesn't dominate big games, lack of trophies, lack of any contributions bar goals etc and for me, R9 is not in the same category as Zidane. Zidane is a top 10 great for me, R9 is not.

FilthyLuca wrote:

Mamad wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:

out of curiosity, why wouldn't he?

He is not as good as them. not even close.

brilliant analysis, but could you elaborate as to why you feel this way

Go watch some of their games then compare them. how is that for analyse?

jibers wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:

Mamad wrote:

No they will not. there is a reason nobody talks about how great is Bayern comparing to other greats. they are not that good.

it's like Saying if CR wins another Golden ball he will go down the same as players like Zidane or Brazillian Ronaldo. in media maybe, but not in reality.

Pep's Barca at it's best was way better than Bayern under Heynckes or this season.

out of curiosity, why wouldn't he?

Doesn't dominate big games, lack of trophies, lack of any contributions bar goals etc and for me, R9 is not in the same category as Zidane. Zidane is a top 10 great for me, R9 is not.

Jibers, I usually respect your analyses, but I can't agree with this. Ronaldo transformed into a different beast since January 2012. He didn't have many bad games which he didn't perform in. Actually there were a few. And that lack of any contribution bar goals is not true. Just look at how much space he makes for the other players, like Benzema. He attracts 2-3 players everytime he has the ball if they are not counter-attacking.

Valkyrja wrote:

jibers wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:

out of curiosity, why wouldn't he?

Doesn't dominate big games, lack of trophies, lack of any contributions bar goals etc and for me, R9 is not in the same category as Zidane. Zidane is a top 10 great for me, R9 is not.

Jibers, I usually respect your analyses, but I can't agree with this. Ronaldo transformed into a different beast since January 2012. He didn't have many bad games which he didn't perform in. Actually there were a few. And that lack of any contribution bar goals is not true. Just look at how much space he makes for the other players, like Benzema. He attracts 2-3 players everytime he has the ball if they are not counter-attacking.

What? 2 3 players? He never needs to be marked by 2 three players because he usually stands in front of he cb. It's Benz that creates space for him. Bar his shooting he has nothing to add when on the ball. You can't compare him to Messi and the likes of Maradona or even Zidane. 4 biggest games this season and he did nothing. The story of his career. One season if you can call it that doesn't make a difference to something that is still happening and has been happening through his whole career. Ronaldo never runs to create space for others, its always to try and score. He is a SS essentially.

jibers wrote:

Valkyrja wrote:

jibers wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:

out of curiosity, why wouldn't he?

Doesn't dominate big games, lack of trophies, lack of any contributions bar goals etc and for me, R9 is not in the same category as Zidane. Zidane is a top 10 great for me, R9 is not.

Jibers, I usually respect your analyses, but I can't agree with this. Ronaldo transformed into a different beast since January 2012. He didn't have many bad games which he didn't perform in. Actually there were a few. And that lack of any contribution bar goals is not true. Just look at how much space he makes for the other players, like Benzema. He attracts 2-3 players everytime he has the ball if they are not counter-attacking.

What? 2 3 players? He never needs to be marked by 2 three players because he usually stands in front of he cb. It's Benz that creates space for him. Bar his shooting he has nothing to add when on the ball. You can't compare him to Messi and the likes of Maradona or even Zidane. 4 biggest games this season and he did nothing. The story of his career. One season if you can call it that doesn't make a difference to something that is still happening and has been happening through his whole career. Ronaldo never runs to create space for others, its always to try and score. He is a SS essentially.

pls stay serious all the time

fantastic post

jibers wrote:

Valkyrja wrote:

jibers wrote:

Doesn't dominate big games, lack of trophies, lack of any contributions bar goals etc and for me, R9 is not in the same category as Zidane. Zidane is a top 10 great for me, R9 is not.

Jibers, I usually respect your analyses, but I can't agree with this. Ronaldo transformed into a different beast since January 2012. He didn't have many bad games which he didn't perform in. Actually there were a few. And that lack of any contribution bar goals is not true. Just look at how much space he makes for the other players, like Benzema. He attracts 2-3 players everytime he has the ball if they are not counter-attacking.

What? 2 3 players? He never needs to be marked by 2 three players because he usually stands in front of he cb. It's Benz that creates space for him. Bar his shooting he has nothing to add when on the ball. You can't compare him to Messi and the likes of Maradona or even Zidane. 4 biggest games this season and he did nothing. The story of his career. One season if you can call it that doesn't make a difference to something that is still happening and has been happening through his whole career. Ronaldo never runs to create space for others, its always to try and score. He is a SS essentially.

I love you JIbers.

When I said this exact thing, people laughed me off in another thread.

I was basically saying how Suarez overall play is so much better than CR.

Pippo wrote:

harhar11 wrote:You are a Real Madrid fan, are you not? If you are not, you are making a impressive impression of one with the way you see only what you want to see.

You say that Bayern never get crucial decision in their favour, so I mention the offside 3 illegal goals that they scored against Barça. But you say that those were not crucial simply because they had 1(the handball on Alexis is never a penalty seeing as it's ball to hand) decision against them.

Let's stick to facts here. Piqué's handball came as early as the 14th minute, with the score still 0:0. That is a crucial decision not called. It could have been 2:0 after 25 minutes. Add in the handball that Alves made later on in the first half -- his hand was moving to the ball and his hand was in an unnatural position -- and it could have been 3:0 at half-time.

Müller's goal was not illegal, Gómez and Robben's goals were.

I've actually never once implied that Barcelona never were on the receiving end of poor decisions, oddly enough. Don't paint me in that light. Using the Inter match example, Motta was sent off before all of the incidents against Barcelona happened, hence that being the most crucial decision of the match.

I'd appreciate it if you showed clips of the other scenes you refer to. I've done the courtesy of posting gifs of scenes that I have referred to, it would be very gracious on your part to do the same.

Barcelona have had more crucial decisions go in their favour in comparison to Bayern. I used two quick examples, with the context of this statement beforehand:

Bayern never had crucial decisions go in their favour like Barcelona did

So how am I the hypocrite here?   

I am not talking about Muller's goal, but about Dante. If you don't remember, he jumped and put his arms on Alves shoulder and impeding him from jumping. Like I said, 2 were clearly illegal, Gomez and Robben's, and one questionable, Dante's.

I can't find .gif's of the ones that I am talking about because of.. well, I have no idea where to look and it was such a long time ago. They used to be on youtube, but like I said, it was such a long time ago. I already showed you a tackle which should have given RVP his first yellow card, and later RVP got a yellow for a slap on Alves, which means a red card.

And no, the penalty on Ibra, where he had his shirt ripped off, was before Motta's red card.

At 2:45 on this video


As you can see, he got his shirt ripped of at 10:20 while Motta was sent off in the 28th min

And again, like Bayern could have been up by 2-0 against us, although Dante's goal is really questionable, Barça against Arsenal could have been up 2-0 aswell if the referee wouldn't have wrongly disallowed Messi's goal.

Here is the wrongly disallowed goal.



You are a hypocrite because your defence for Bayern, it's true for Barça aswell. Infact, both are identical. They got a couple of decision in their favours, while at the same time they got a couple of decision against them. Yet you are saying that Bayern never got any crucial decision because they could have been 2-0 if not for the referee, while forgetting that Barça could have been 2-0 against Arsenal aswell if the referee would not have disallowed Messi's goal simply because RVP got sent off in the next leg..

jibers wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

jibers wrote:Why has noone addressed Barcelona's away record? Nobody? Bayern were better at demolishing opposition. I don't see how you can compare them tbh and say Barcelona were a level above when the evidence points to the contrary. Bayern faced tougher opposition and did better. Bayern will go down as the greatest team since Ajax if they retain the cl so all this talk is irrelevant.

They have faced better opposition? Really? Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool back then were all better than Real Madrid, Dortmund, Juventus or Barça. Maybe not Arsenal, but the other's, imho, were..

And again, demolishing opposition? apart from the game against us, didn't we score more goals than Bayern in most round? In the round of 16, we scored 4 goals, they 3, in the quarter-finals we scored 6, they 4, in the semi-final we scored 3 and they 7, in the final we scored 3 and they 2.

Really, I think that the semi-final created this myth that they were better at demolishing opposition, when in truth Barça were probably better at that than Bayern, while Bayern were better defensively..

Again all this talk of better or worse is irrelevant. Pepcelona being amazing didn't stop Inter and Chelsea beating them. What matters now is if Bayern retain the cl. If they do that, being better than Barcelona is irrelevant. They would go down as the greatest team in modern football. Barcelona is not their goal, history is atm.

It was you who said that Bayern faced tougher opposition, I was merely correcting you..

harhar11 wrote:

jibers wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

They have faced better opposition? Really? Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool back then were all better than Real Madrid, Dortmund, Juventus or Barça. Maybe not Arsenal, but the other's, imho, were..

And again, demolishing opposition? apart from the game against us, didn't we score more goals than Bayern in most round? In the round of 16, we scored 4 goals, they 3, in the quarter-finals we scored 6, they 4, in the semi-final we scored 3 and they 7, in the final we scored 3 and they 2.

Really, I think that the semi-final created this myth that they were better at demolishing opposition, when in truth Barça were probably better at that than Bayern, while Bayern were better defensively..

Again all this talk of better or worse is irrelevant. Pepcelona being amazing didn't stop Inter and Chelsea beating them. What matters now is if Bayern retain the cl. If they do that, being better than Barcelona is irrelevant. They would go down as the greatest team in modern football. Barcelona is not their goal, history is atm.

It was you who said that Bayern faced tougher opposition, I was merely correcting you..

They did. In the knoclout round of 2011 Barcelona faced Arsenal, Shahktar, Madrid and United
Bayern faced Juventus, Arsenal, Barcelona and BVB. Again all this is irrelevant, Bayern are facing history, not Barcelona. They smashed Barcelona last year so they could care less.

jibers wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

jibers wrote:

Again all this talk of better or worse is irrelevant. Pepcelona being amazing didn't stop Inter and Chelsea beating them. What matters now is if Bayern retain the cl. If they do that, being better than Barcelona is irrelevant. They would go down as the greatest team in modern football. Barcelona is not their goal, history is atm.

It was you who said that Bayern faced tougher opposition, I was merely correcting you..

They did. In the knoclout round of 2011 Barcelona faced Arsenal, Shahktar, Madrid and United
Bayern faced  Juventus, Arsenal, Barcelona and BVB. Again all this is irrelevant, Bayern are facing history, not Barcelona. They smashed Barcelona last year so they could care less.

Let's see, Arsenal were better back in 11, I don't really know how to rate Juventus, Barça lol. We were shit last season. So much was wrong by then. Tito and Roura never rotating which in the end made Messi get injured and the entire team were clearly tired by the end of the season(couldn't even defeat PSG at home or how we lost to such a bad Milan side without creating anything), Roura stopped training tactically, mentally weak because of what happend to Tito and Abidal etc.

BVB were great though. Although I am not certain if they were better than Man Utd in 09 or 11..

To add on some points made in this thread and in fairness to Bayern...

Without people releasing it the game has evolved tactically since Barca won the CL in 2011.... which is why i find comparing the era's a bit pointless.

The best team of the current era will always beat the best team of previous era's because they have take advantage of tactical changes and scientific changes in the game.

For example the reason Barca under Pep were so successful among other reasons was that teams at the time had no idea how to defend against Messi in his false 9 role.... not only did Barca have a technical and in some ways a physical advantage back then they also had a tactical advantage.

That wouldn't be the case in todays game.... does anyone think that Barca would be as dominant in 2014? because i don't, not to say they wern't fantastic and they would probably still win what they won but as time goes on teams adapt and change to the strengths of the best.

Teams today have adapted to that Barca team and become better for it..... put that team in today's game without them knowing this and they wouldn't be as dominant because they wouldn't have the tactical advantage.

Also tbf to Barca.... there's one thing i don't think anyone as mentioned as why Bayern shouldn't be compared to them....

Watch a typical Barca game from the Pep era against the top contenders..... those contenders were shit scared of them i mean shit f*cking scared.

Didn't matter who they played but nearly every team camped in their own box because they were so frightened of what they would do with even 1 yard of space around the box.

Fast forward to today and can we say the same about Bayern? hell can we, they might be the best but the best are not scared of them and will try to enforce their game on Bayern to win.

That right there is the difference, Pep's Barca forced the opposition to go into a frightened shell of themselves.... nobody would take their own game against Barca, everyone ADAPTED to Barca's game instead of the other way around.

That is small teams mentality and everybody did it.... didn't matter if you were Madrid or Murcia everybody was the same.

......

TL;DR Comparisons are stupid.

United in '11 were no better than Barca last year.

jibers wrote:Why has noone addressed Barcelona's away record? Nobody? Bayern were better at demolishing opposition. I don't see how you can compare them tbh and say Barcelona were a level above when the evidence points to the contrary. Bayern faced tougher opposition and did better. Bayern will go down as the greatest team since Ajax if they retain the cl so all this talk is irrelevant.

Previous page pls

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Yeah let's all ignore how 'mighty' pepcelona's away record is

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
Even if you want to ignore all of that.... the difference in organisation, tactics, pressing, piercing passing was like comparing 1970 Brazil to 2010 Brazil.

They are two totally different teams despite the personnell....

This is way too exaggerated. The tactics stayed mostly the same, it's just that due to lack of rotating the players were too exhausted to carry them out.