Lets Face it, Bayern is nowhere near Pep's Barca

Fußball wrote:It's obvious that Bayern's biggest advantage is that they win their league in October and can rest and prepare for Champions League matches as they wish. That is quite a big advantage when key players can rest 2 weeks and prepare physically to press the shit out of teams in Europe which teams at a similar level (especially Madrid and Barca) don't get. I still remember that clash with Real Madrid in 2012. Madrid had to play a do or die Clasico in Camp Nou and 3 days later had to play against Bayern with the same lineup whereas Bayern just rested everyone. Given how incredibly close that tie was (on to penalties), no one can convince me that it didn't make any difference. Physical conditioning is so important in football, I can't believe there isn't more talk about it. If Pep's Barca had that kind of advantage, winning the league in October and being able to rest everyone, the CL would have been retained either in 10 or 12, no doubt about it. Both Barca and Madrid in 2012 started their home legs with an early 2-0 lead and then they couldn't maintain that level at all.

What complete load of crap

So with the semi clash in 2012, our advantage was we had won the league in October, even though we didn't win it at all?
  

no duh

Yeah let's all ignore how 'mighty' pepcelona's away record is

arsenal , playing with samira nasri at central midfield , managed to press the shit out of barça and beat them 2-1.

and i'm supposed to believe that 2013 bayern wouldn't be able to do it ? LOL .

Prime Barca wasn't even close to a state that I'd call unbeatable. One of the greatest teams ever yet still people manage to completely overrate them.

farfan wrote:arsenal , playing with samira nasri at central midfield , managed to press the shit out of barça and beat them 2-1.

and i'm supposed to believe that 2013 bayern wouldn't be able to do it ?  LOL .

Arsenal last season managed to beat Bayern Munich 2-0 in Allianz Arena and I am supposed to belive that Barça wouldn't be able to do it?...

Heck, even Man City managed to defeat Bayern 3-2 in Allian Arena this season, and we defeated them 4-1, and we had 2 goals wrongly disallowed and could have had 2 penalties. And yes, I know that maybe the penalty that we got wasn't a penalty..

harhar11 wrote:

farfan wrote:arsenal , playing with samira nasri at central midfield , managed to press the shit out of barça and beat them 2-1.

and i'm supposed to believe that 2013 bayern wouldn't be able to do it ?  LOL .

Arsenal last season managed to beat Bayern Munich 2-0 in allianz arena and I am supposed to belive that Barça wouldn't be able to do it?...

different circumstances.

bayern got complacent after the comfortable away win .

also arsenal beat barcelona by playing a style that is all too familiar for bayern.


jupp's bayern is just a bad stylistic match up for barcelona .

[quote="harhar11"]

farfan wrote:

Heck, even Man City managed to defeat Bayern 3-2 in Allian Arena this season, and we defeated them 4-1, and we had 2 goals wrongly disallowed and could have had 2 penalties. And yes, I know that maybe the penalty that we got wasn't a penalty..

did you even read the conversation ?

we're comparing bayern 2013 to barça 2011.

As long as bayern dosent win the second cl they will be trolled by envy competitors . Hell *bleep* if Messi/fab/sanchez had hit the target in 12 and if barca had won that final .They would have been considerd alongside the milans.twice undone by gureilla teams by fine maargins

bayern is close to making history .


they're also close to stealing the title of " best team in this era / decade / ever " from barcelona .

if they win the CL this year , their record would stand at 4 finals in 5 years and two back to back titles .
unparalleled in the modern era.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Fußball wrote:It's obvious that Bayern's biggest advantage is that they win their league in October and can rest and prepare for Champions League matches as they wish. That is quite a big advantage when key players can rest 2 weeks and prepare physically to press the shit out of teams in Europe which teams at a similar level (especially Madrid and Barca) don't get. I still remember that clash with Real Madrid in 2012. Madrid had to play a do or die Clasico in Camp Nou and 3 days later had to play against Bayern with the same lineup whereas Bayern just rested everyone. Given how incredibly close that tie was (on to penalties), no one can convince me that it didn't make any difference. Physical conditioning is so important in football, I can't believe there isn't more talk about it. If Pep's Barca had that kind of advantage, winning the league in October and being able to rest everyone, the CL would have been retained either in 10 or 12, no doubt about it. Both Barca and Madrid in 2012 started their home legs with an early 2-0 lead and then they couldn't maintain that level at all.

What complete load of crap

So with the semi clash in 2012, our advantage was we had won the league in October, even though we didn't win it at all?
  

Duh. I know you didn't win it that year. You gave up on the title and rested your entire squad for the Madrid clash nevertheless. The main point about a huge physical advantage remains now that you've cannibalized Dortmund and there is no competitor. For the 3th year in a row in March you can just concentrate to prepare for the Champions League. Madrid and Barca can't because they are busy killing each other in domestic competitions.

How is this crap? This is also completely ignoring that on top of the non-competitiveness of the league, Bundesliga also only has 18 teams instead of 2 and therefore basically 2 preseasons (4 week winter break). You're a fool if you think that kind of physical preparation doesn't benefit Bayern immensely. In Barca's treble season Xavi played 5707 minutes of football. Schweinsteiger last season played 4115.

Anyone who compares the Barca that lost to Bayern last year to the won the CL two years previous are a bit braindead tbh.

The difference between the two is hugely drastic.

Puyol was no longer the same player , Abidal had cancer ffs, Xavi had become an aging player, Messi wasn't fit.... Pedro had been crap for 2 years, Villa was nowhere near the same player.

That's without mentioning the fact that the likes of Pique dropped a metric tonne in performance level.

Even if you want to ignore all of that.... the difference in organisation, tactics, pressing, piercing passing was like comparing 1970 Brazil to 2010 Brazil.

They are two totally different teams despite the personnell....

But as far as this Bayern is concerned.... you are all aware that even in Pep's Barcelona's prime they would consistently lose away in CL right?

This is all a bit knee jerk.... just as is the comparisons between Bayern and Barca to begin with.

farfan wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

farfan wrote:arsenal , playing with samira nasri at central midfield , managed to press the shit out of barça and beat them 2-1.

and i'm supposed to believe that 2013 bayern wouldn't be able to do it ?  LOL .

Arsenal last season managed to beat Bayern Munich 2-0 in allianz arena and I am supposed to belive that Barça wouldn't be able to do it?...

different circumstances.

bayern got complacent after the comfortable away win .

also arsenal beat barcelona by playing a style that is all too familiar for bayern.


jupp's bayern is just a bad stylistic match up for barcelona .

And when we lost against Arsenal, we had a perfectly legal wrongly disallowed when we were winning 1-0. Sh#t happends and in the end, you lost and we lost.

farfan wrote:

did you even read the conversation ?

we're comparing bayern 2013 to barça 2011.

We are comparing the current Bayern vs prime Barça and I was just showing how bad your logic was.

You said that Bayern could defeat prime Barça because a weaker Arsenal could defeat them, so I just used your logic. Man City managed to defeat Bayern Munich, the same Man City that a much weaker Barça side had no problem with defeating.

To make it simple, this was how you presented your arguement. Arsenal defeat Barça hence Arsenal > Barça, and seeing as in your opinion, Bayern > Arsenal, then that means Bayern > Arsenal > Barça.

Here I am using that same logic. Man city defeated Bayern, hence Man City > Bayern(I don't think so, but it's the same arguement that you are using), but a "weak" Barça > Man city, hence a Prime Barça > "Weak" Barça > Man City > Bayern..[/quote]

What an odd argument.

This 2013-14 Bayern side shouldn't be the one compared to 2010-11 Barcelona, because by then Barcelona's players were acclimatised under Guardiola; this is Bayern's first season under him.

Bayern's 2012-13 side easily compares to 2010-11 Barcelona. In terms of results, dominance, but with more success. Bayern never had crucial decisions go in their favour like Barcelona did -- red cards for van Persie, Pepe -- and in fact they had bigger decisions called against them than for them.

Do we want to bring up Barcelona's away form in the Champions League knock-out stages from 2008-2012...? In that time: Lyon (D), Bayern (D), Chelsea [lol] (D), Stuttgart (D), Arsenal (D), Inter (L), Arsenal (L), Shakhtar (W), RM (W), Leverkusen (W), Milan (D), Chelsea (L).

3 wins, 6 draws, 3 losses. Bayern in 2012-13 and 2013-14 (ongoing) alone have won 4, against Arsenal, Arsenal, Juventus, and Barcelona.

Bayern have a lot of time to do something significant in world football, considering their team's absurd strength and the pedigree of their coach. The home leg is only three days before their match against Dortmund (H) which will probably be the only major obstacle to their unbeaten league campaign.

It's hilarious how people are already revising the history of Barcelona when their best season was only three and a half years ago.

Fußball wrote:
Duh. I know you didn't win it that year. You gave up on the title and rested your entire squad for the Madrid clash nevertheless. The main point about a huge physical advantage remains now that you've cannibalized Dortmund and there is no competitor. For the 3th year in a row in March you can just concentrate to prepare for the Champions League. Madrid and Barca can't because they are busy killing each other in domestic competitions.

How is this crap? This is also completely ignoring that on top of the non-competitiveness of the league, Bundesliga also only has 18 teams instead of 2 and therefore basically 2 preseasons (4 week winter break). You're a fool if you think that kind of physical preparation doesn't benefit Bayern immensely. In Barca's treble season Xavi played 5707 minutes of football. Schweinsteiger last season played 4115.

Fussball, I am well aware that you know when we won the league and when we didn't.
You still decided to conveniently ignore it just to categorically declare that we always 'win the league in October' and therefore have some basic advantage over all the other teams, who have to play SO many MUCH more competitive game that they're just so tired

So tschuldigung, 'a complete load of crap' surely was an exaggeration, but not more so than your 'the Bundesliga isn't competitive and Bayern rest their players all season long' argument, which is based on prejudice and not much else.
(probably 'prejudice' is the wrong word, as you know the league very well, 'by decree' fits better)

Because you confuse cause and effect, and you willfully confuse completely different seasons.

The fact is that 2012 we didn't walk the league, Dortmund walked the league, and you know as well as I do that it wassn't because we 'gave up on it'

That lead to us strengthening, so NOW we walk the league.

That means, we're not so strong or successful as a result of us being able to walk the league, but instead it is because we're so strong that we are walking the league at the moment.

If you bothered to look at, or decide to include in your argument, point tallies over the year, of 1.,2.,3. placed teams etc, instead of brushing everything with one stroke, you would very well know that is true, and your argument defies logic.

Now of course some of your argument is true, less teams in the BuLI, only one legged cup games etc.

But are you trying to tell me poor Real and Barca never heard of the concept of rotation?
What's more, are you telling me if Ronaldo and Özil had been rested more they would have worked harder defensively, run more etc?
You're having a laugh..

The reason why Ronaldo and Messi play everygame isn't because Real and Barca can't afford to rest them, it is because they don't DARE to rest them.
Pep confirmed that just the other day, how everyone went crazy when he benched Messi once and didn't do it again.

Because those two are focused on their record chasing player of the world statistics, which trumps what would be beneficial for the team.

And that Barca overall did rotate too little is hardly our fault, or our unfair advantage?
If they trusted their bench players more, who knows, maybe their most promising youth player wouldn't have left, as his release clause wouldn't have dropped from 80 to 20m € lol.

So sorry, I call bullshit on that argument.

That doesn't mean I claim we're better than prime Pepcelona, of course.

I wouldn't dare to - not only were they playing unprecedently great football, they did so while also having UNICEF on their shirt and saving starving children from Africa, providing a better life for them

Also, I don't give a flying *bleep* about those rankings.

Bayern and Barca are totally different. Pep is trying to make Bayern play like his Barca thats essentially trying to force a square pig in a round hole. Their players are totally different. Play goes through Robben and Ribery most of the times at Barca Pedro and Villa were just pedestrians until a pass came that they could run onto behind the opponents defence. Messi was a big part in creating chances and keeping posession, Pep is trying to force Muller and Goetze to do that which they are clearly not comfortable with.

Barca don't have and never had a Schweinsteiger, instead they had posession wh*res xaviestquets who bored you to death with their sideways passing and oh all of a sudden they found a hole they passed onto with two very alert Villa and Pedro. Bayern don't press as well as Barca did and most of their plays go through their tricky wingers rather than their cms

Pep shold stop fumbling around with the team and play a way THEY are comfortable with not a way HE is proud of

We are comparing the current Bayern vs prime Barça and I was just showing how bad your logic was.

no , we are not . me ,Valkyrja , and lex were talking about how 2011 barcelona would fare against jupp's bayern .  go look at the posts in the first page.

You said that Bayern could defeat prime Barça because a weaker Arsenal could defeat them, so I just used your logic. Man City managed to defeat Bayern Munich, the same Man City that a much weaker Barça side had no problem with defeating.

again , bayern 2013 vs barcelona 2011.

you just butted  in a conversation without reading the previous posts.

To make it simple, this was how you presented your arguement. Arsenal defeat Barça hence Arsenal > Barça, and seeing as in your opinion, Bayern > Arsenal, then that means Bayern > Arsenal > Barça.

that was never the  point .

my point was that a lesser arsenal team gave 2011 barcelona trouble and beat them by applying high pressure , that's bayern's bread and butter and trademark style .

i wouldn't even be using the example had arsenal beaten barcelona by sitting deep and counter attacking .

Pippo wrote:What an odd argument.

This 2013-14 Bayern side shouldn't be the one compared to 2010-11 Barcelona, because by then Barcelona's players were acclimatised under Guardiola; this is Bayern's first season under him.

Bayern's 2012-13 side easily compares to 2010-11 Barcelona. In terms of results, dominance, but with more success. Bayern never had crucial decisions go in their favour like Barcelona did -- red cards for van Persie, Pepe -- and in fact they had bigger decisions called against them than for them.

Do we want to bring up Barcelona's away form in the Champions League knock-out stages from 2008-2012...? In that time: Lyon (D), Bayern (D), Chelsea [lol] (D), Stuttgart (D), Arsenal (D), Inter (L), Arsenal (L), Shakhtar (W), RM (W), Leverkusen (W), Milan (D), Chelsea (L).

3 wins, 6 draws, 3 losses. Bayern in 2012-13 and 2013-14 (ongoing) alone have won 4, against Arsenal, Arsenal, Juventus, and Barcelona.  

Bayern have a lot of time to do something significant in world football, considering their team's absurd strength and the pedigree of their coach. The home leg is only three days before their match against Dortmund (H) which will probably be the only major obstacle to their unbeaten league campaign.

It's hilarious how people are already revising the history of Barcelona when their best season was only three and a half years ago.

They have never had decision go their way?
What about the offside goal against Juventus or the 3 goals that probably should habe been disallowed against Barca, of which 2 should have certainly been disallowed?

And yes, i know that bayern could have had a penalty against Barca, but it was you who chose to ignore all the decision that went against Barca. Like Marcelo's penalty on pedro that should also have been sending off, Adebayor and Carvalho not being sent off or the goal wrongly disallowed for Barca in the Emirates, RVP not being sent off in the first hLf of the 2nd leg, 1 penalty in the emirates and another on in the camp nou not given to Barca.

Really, its ridiculous that you even dare to imply that it was Barca who got the most decision their favour against Arsenal..

Barca under Pep, didn't exactly have a great away record.

harhar11 wrote:They have never had decision go their way?
What about the offside goal against Juventus or the 3 goals that probably should habe been disallowed against Barca, of which 2 should have certainly been disallowed? And yes, i know that bayern could have had a penalty against Barca, but it was you who chose to ignore all the decision that went against Barca. Like Marcelo's penalty on pedro that should also have been  sending off, Adebayor and Carvalho not being sent off or the goal wrongly disallowed for Barca in the Emirates, RVP not being sent off in the first hLf of the 2nd leg, 1 penalty in the emirates and another on in the camp nou not given to Barca.

Really, its ridiculous that you even dare to imply that it was Barca who got the most decision their favour against Arsenal..

Yes...let's talk about these decisions. Like the one to award a phantom corner against Arsenal (gif), or the handball from Piqué (gif), or the handball from Alves (gif), or the dive from Milner (gif), the uncalled penalty on Ribéry (gif), the not given red card for Fernandinho (gif), or the uncalled penalty on Müller (gif), the uncalled penalty on Thiago (gif), do I go on?

It's funny, really, because if the referees hadn't bottled those two calls in the 4:0 victory for Bayern, the tie would have been over after the first 40 minutes. It's a shame that I couldn't find a gif of the penalty that should have been called when Chiellini fouled Mandzukic in the box.

Barcelona have gotten several crucial decisions in their favour, but thankfully they have not been able to benefit from them in their best period. The audacity of some Barcelona fans to complain about not being given clear decisions against Inter in 2010 amazes me, especially when they were all gifted to an Oscar-winning performance from Busquets.

Barcelona have obviously benefitted much more from referee decisions than Bayern have, do not try to manipulate my point to suit your narrative. Bayern never had crucial decisions go in their favour like Barcelona did.

Pippo wrote:
Barcelona have obviously benefitted much more from referee decisions than Bayern have, do not try to manipulate my point to suit your narrative. Bayern never had crucial decisions go in their favour like Barcelona did.

On the Champions League final, Dante should have been sent off for his foul on Reus. He was already on a yellow card and kicked Reus on the stomach, referee gave then penalty but no second yellow.

However, for me Bayern 2012-13>any Barca team.

M99 wrote:On the Champions League final, Dante should have been sent off for his foul on Reus. He was already on a yellow card and kicked Reus on the stomach, referee gave then penalty but no second yellow.

It's not mandatory to give a card of any type for an infringement inside of the penalty-box. The official almost certainly interpreted as "careless" rather than "reckless" or "excessive".

“Careless” means that the player has shown a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or that he acted without precaution.

• No further disciplinary sanction is needed if a foul is judged to be careless

Source (Laws of the Game)

Pippo wrote:Yes...let's talk about these decisions. Like the one to award a phantom corner against Arsenal (gif), or the handball from Piqué (gif), or the handball from Alves (gif), or the dive from Milner (gif), the uncalled penalty on Ribéry (gif), the not given red card for Fernandinho (gif), or the uncalled penalty on Müller (gif), the uncalled penalty on Thiago (gif), do I go on?

It's funny, really, because if the referees hadn't bottled those two calls in the 4:0 victory for Bayern, the tie would have been over after the first 40 minutes. It's a shame that I couldn't find a gif of the penalty that should have been called when Chiellini fouled Mandzukic in the box.

Barcelona have gotten several crucial decisions in their favour, but thankfully they have not been able to benefit from them in their best period. The audacity of some Barcelona fans to complain about not being given clear decisions against Inter in 2010 amazes me, especially when they were all gifted to an Oscar-winning performance from Busquets.

Barcelona have obviously benefitted much more from referee decisions than Bayern have, do not try to manipulate my point to suit your narrative. Bayern never had crucial decisions go in their favour like Barcelona did.

You are a Real Madrid fan, are you not? If you are not, you are making a impressive impression of one with the way you see only what you want to see.

You say that Bayern never get crucial decision in their favour, so I mention the offside 3 illegal goals that they scored against Barça. But you say that those were not crucial simply because they had 1(the handball on Alexis is never a penalty seeing as it's ball to hand) decision against them.

But you can use that logic to say that Barça has never had a crucial decison go in their favour either, seeing as in every single game that Barça had a couple of decision that favoured them, they had more going against themselves. Like against Inter for example, Motta was sent off and Pique might have scored in an offside position(never really seen a good replay), but seeing as Inter scored an offside goal themselves, they should have conceded 3 penaltis in total and we had a goal wrongly disallowed. Using your logic, that's not a game where we were favoured by the referee.

Or against Arsenal. RVP was sent off in the 2nd half of the 2nd leg, but seeing as he should have been off in the first half (stepped on Messi's which should have been atleast a yellow, and then he bitch slapped Alves = red), goal wrongly disallowed in the first leg, a penalty on Messi by Djourou that the ref didn't give and not sending off Koscielny for a 2nd bookable offence when he conceded the penalty.

Etc

To summarise, if you say that Bayern never gets crusial decision in their favour simply because they get some decision against them, while at the same time you say that Barça get decision in their favour all the time, while ignoring that against Inter, Real Madrid and Arsenal, Barça got more crucial decision against them then they got in favour, you are a big hypocrite.

Face the facts, Bayern get's crucial decision in their favour, just like Barça gets, or Real Madrid or Man utd or Chelsea or Inter etc..

Ps: Do you think it's ridiculous for Chelsea to complain about the referee in 09, seeing as how Anelka made a oscar-winning performance to send off Abidal like you do with Barça - Inter?

Why has noone addressed Barcelona's away record? Nobody? Bayern were better at demolishing opposition. I don't see how you can compare them tbh and say Barcelona were a level above when the evidence points to the contrary. Bayern faced tougher opposition and did better. Bayern will go down as the greatest team since Ajax if they retain the cl so all this talk is irrelevant.

jibers wrote:Why has noone addressed Barcelona's away record? Nobody? Bayern were better at demolishing opposition. I don't see how you can compare them tbh and say Barcelona were a level above when the evidence points to the contrary. Bayern faced tougher opposition and did better. Bayern will go down as the greatest team since Ajax if they retain the cl so all this talk is irrelevant.

They have faced better opposition? Really? Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool back then were all better than Real Madrid, Dortmund, Juventus or Barça. Maybe not Arsenal, but the other's, imho, were..

And again, demolishing opposition? apart from the game against us, didn't we score more goals than Bayern in most round? In the round of 16, we scored 4 goals, they 3, in the quarter-finals we scored 6, they 4, in the semi-final we scored 3 and they 7, in the final we scored 3 and they 2.

Really, I think that the semi-final created this myth that they were better at demolishing opposition, when in truth Barça were probably better at that than Bayern, while Bayern were better defensively..

harhar11 wrote:You are a Real Madrid fan, are you not? If you are not, you are making a impressive impression of one with the way you see only what you want to see.

You say that Bayern never get crucial decision in their favour, so I mention the offside 3 illegal goals that they scored against Barça. But you say that those were not crucial simply because they had 1(the handball on Alexis is never a penalty seeing as it's ball to hand) decision against them.

Let's stick to facts here. Piqué's handball came as early as the 14th minute, with the score still 0:0. That is a crucial decision not called. It could have been 2:0 after 25 minutes. Add in the handball that Alves made later on in the first half -- his hand was moving to the ball and his hand was in an unnatural position -- and it could have been 3:0 at half-time.

Müller's goal was not illegal, Gómez and Robben's goals were.

I've actually never once implied that Barcelona never were on the receiving end of poor decisions, oddly enough. Don't paint me in that light. Using the Inter match example, Motta was sent off before all of the incidents against Barcelona happened, hence that being the most crucial decision of the match.

I'd appreciate it if you showed clips of the other scenes you refer to. I've done the courtesy of posting gifs of scenes that I have referred to, it would be very gracious on your part to do the same.

Barcelona have had more crucial decisions go in their favour in comparison to Bayern. I used two quick examples, with the context of this statement beforehand:

Bayern never had crucial decisions go in their favour like Barcelona did

So how am I the hypocrite here?