El Clasico: Real Madrid vs Barcelona discussion

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El Clasico: Real Madrid vs Barcelona discussion - Page 19 Empty Re: El Clasico: Real Madrid vs Barcelona discussion

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:00 pm

Mr Nick09 wrote:i hear you doc but It's ancelotti who in the summer when he arrived, started with saying that Ronaldo didnt need to defend, and that he could do anything he wanted in attack.

If Ancelotti is saying that he doesnt want his attackers to defend too much because he wants them fresh to attack, then i can guarantee you that we are running straight into a wall.

if he is aware that his forwards cant be running after the ball for long periods of time, it's probably time to start playing defensive possession, as well as more rotation to keep players fresh

Wasn't his original plan to use Ronaldo as an SS and Isco on the wing though?

And tbf with Di Maria in the team covering him its not much of an issue.... Bale on the other wing is an issue though as Modric is not exactly going to do the same work.

I did say this was going to be a problem when you signed Bale though.... neither are gonna do much work defensively and the fullbacks are not great defensively as is, its quite frankly a miracle you haven't conceded more.

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Post by jibers Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:05 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/2014/03/21/actualidad/1395433899_528944.html

Spanish link, but basically Alonso had an argument with Ancelotti before the clasico during which he argued that the football played by RM is a football of the "80s", that against top teams RM will not have control because the forwards do not contribute defensively and that in 2014 this is something that successful teams have to do.

Pretty spot on.

As I said multiple times, Ronaldo will make Madrid a good team, but not a great team. It's bitterly obvious. Smart RM fans like Nick and Sports have been pointing this out from the get go. Barcelona were elite when their whole team worked, Inter win it all through the team, Bayern the same thing, but nope, you need a 50 goal a season player now to have a chance of winning something Rolling Eyes

I stand by it, as Long as Ronaldo is there, Madrid won't win La Decima, except he plays as a CF.

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Post by Le Samourai Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:45 pm

jibers wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/2014/03/21/actualidad/1395433899_528944.html

Spanish link, but basically Alonso had an argument with Ancelotti before the clasico during which he argued that the football played by RM is a football of the "80s", that against top teams RM will not have control because the forwards do not contribute defensively and that in 2014 this is something that successful teams have to do.

Pretty spot on.

As I said multiple times, Ronaldo will make Madrid a good team, but not a great team. It's bitterly obvious. Smart RM  fans like Nick and Sports have been pointing this out from the get go. Barcelona were elite when their whole team worked, Inter win it all through the team, Bayern the same thing, but nope, you need a 50 goal a season player now to have a chance of winning something Rolling Eyes

I stand by it, as Long as Ronaldo is there, Madrid won't win La Decima, except he plays as a CF.


 Sad

Not sure it's as simple as that though, he has the tools to push the ball on the counter, but not the tools to play with it in a settled attack. He needs to know when to give it up to players better equipped to use it.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:55 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
Mr Nick09 wrote:i hear you doc but It's ancelotti who in the summer when he arrived, started with saying that Ronaldo didnt need to defend, and that he could do anything he wanted in attack.

If Ancelotti is saying that he doesnt want his attackers to defend too much because he wants them fresh to attack, then i can guarantee you that we are running straight into a wall.

if he is aware that his forwards cant be running after the ball for long periods of time, it's probably time to start playing defensive possession, as well as more rotation to keep players fresh

Wasn't his original plan to use Ronaldo as an SS and Isco on the wing though?

And tbf with Di Maria in the team covering him its not much of an issue.... Bale on the other wing is an issue though as Modric is not exactly going to do the same work.

I did say this was going to be a problem when you signed Bale though.... neither are gonna do much work defensively and the fullbacks are not great defensively as is, its quite frankly a miracle you haven't conceded more.
I am a bit suprised how weak garethcito has been doing his defensive work, i had more hopes for him. But like i said, if we have a huge squad and players of the quality of Jese standing behind, there is no reason to play Bale all games. he will think about saving his energy which is counter productive. I am also running the theory that Bale has never played this level of football in his life before (clasico i mean). That game on sunday was insane, i dont know if i have seen more intensity at this level all season to be quite honest. He and Benzema have to work more, and looking forward we have to do a better job not playing the same guys every game.

And yes, his original plan was that, but it backfired, i think he came in from PSG thinking that he would play a similar 442, but he had to change it very quickly. This setup works best for us, we cant afford to have a double pivot with Alonso anymore.

anyway, problem when we play barca is always that guys like modric and alonso will come short in quality when they are up against the xavi and iniestas of this world, and it shows.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:59 pm

I'm not that surprised tbh he hasn't had to work hard in years Laughing

But i do agree he has never been in a game of that intensity before.

I still maintain though that he needs to learn how to be effective without relying on his physical attributes though.... in the PL after a while people realised how to stop him as a winger, he then reinvented himself as an SS which he won't be given the chance to do at Madrid so he needs to adapt.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:19 pm

We pummeled a lot of teams because we were pressing and defending expertly. Those mistakes that you saw for every goal, we didnt make them in previous games. Carvajal abandoning his side, Ramos brainfarting, Alonso tackling Iniesta like a moron... we didnt concede such easy plays in the past two months.

Also, Alonso complaining about how he is being pressed is just an old guy complaining that he needs extreme protection not to get exposed.
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Post by Onyx Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:53 pm

Right now we defend with 2 banks of 4 with Bale, Modric, Alonso and Di Maria. Ronaldo occasionally tracks back.

If we switch to 4-2-3-1, then only Bale, Modric and Alonso would be defending.

Main thing is we sit back too much against possession sides. If our backline was higher, the lines were closer and our pressing was more intense, teams wouldn't be able to get out their half. Which would mean we wouldn't be sitting back as much. Similar to how Bayern defend and how peak Barca/Dortmund did.

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Post by Arquitecto Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:00 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:Right now we defend with 2 banks of 4 with Bale, Modric, Alonso and Di Maria. Ronaldo occasionally tracks back.

If we switch to 4-2-3-1, then only Bale, Modric and Alonso would be defending.

Main thing is we sit back too much against possession sides. If our backline was higher, the lines were closer and our pressing was more intense, teams wouldn't be able to get out their half. Which would mean we wouldn't be sitting back as much. Similar to how Bayern defend and how peak Barca/Dortmund did.

You sit deeper vs possession teams simply because that is the logical thing to do.

Fullbacks withstanding you cannot keep a high line with Ramos and Pepe in between the integrity of the backline as both are made to defend in a deeper line. Ramos for España has his weakness' covered by the midfield of España as when he is exposed, its not a pretty sight.

Your midfield also is not to be used to press. Xabi is obvious, Modric when pressing for Spurs was a disaster as only Di Maria is efficient at such a strenuous job. Illaramendi pressed intensely in Montanier's 4-1-2-3 yet is currently not a starter.

There is no point of such incremental changes if the ones that are deployed are working.
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Post by chad4401 Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:01 pm

the best way for the attackers to defend more often without getting tired as nick said is if we added defensive possession, the problem is that cr and bale would struggle more, and you know when cr struggles he gonna complain sooner or later.
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Post by Onyx Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:23 pm

Arquitescu wrote:
Yohan Modric wrote:Right now we defend with 2 banks of 4 with Bale, Modric, Alonso and Di Maria. Ronaldo occasionally tracks back.

If we switch to 4-2-3-1, then only Bale, Modric and Alonso would be defending.

Main thing is we sit back too much against possession sides. If our backline was higher, the lines were closer and our pressing was more intense, teams wouldn't be able to get out their half. Which would mean we wouldn't be sitting back as much. Similar to how Bayern defend and how peak Barca/Dortmund did.

You sit deeper vs possession teams simply because that is the logical thing to do.

Fullbacks withstanding you cannot keep a high line with Ramos and Pepe in between the integrity of the backline as both are made to defend in a deeper line. Ramos for España has his weakness' covered by the midfield of España as when he is exposed, its not a pretty sight.

Your midfield also is not to be used to press. Xabi is obvious, Modric when pressing for Spurs was a disaster as only Di Maria is efficient at such a strenuous job. Illaramendi pressed intensely in Montanier's 4-1-2-3 yet is currently not a starter.

There is no point of such incremental changes if the ones that are deployed are working.

Pepe and Ramos are both quick, so I'm sure they'd manage just fine. The CB's that should be ideally defending deep are the ones who are slower and better at the basics. We're just not a team who sits back and nor should we ever be one.

In terms of midfield, they don't need to be experts at pressing in order to press. They just need to position themselves correctly and keep to the shape.

Overall though as I said earlier in the thread, we should stick to our usual style in every game.

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