- Il Polpo Paul | Paul Pogba

Juventude wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:this is sad, never thought id see the day we became a selling club. makes me want to slap agnelli twice, once for basically cutting Del Piero, and the second for this absurdity.

Go cry poverty somewhere else, you just got 86 mil euros from the cl last year, signed a sponsorship deal with Samsung and those other Koreans last year, and have a new stadium with a freaking mall in it (of which im sure you rake in plenty rent money). Pogba is exactly the type of player we want, if you cant pay him a couple million a year, you need to get the *bleep* out of the sports business.

 
What if it means paying him as one of our top three players right now even though he can't displace Vidal, Pirlo, or Marchisio in Conte's eyes?  Then it causes other players on the team to raise their salary demands and suddenly we are paying more for players than we're bringing in?  Do you support not selling him then?  Juve has sold top players before and so have other top clubs.  It's not that big of a deal if we get a good price for him.  
 
I think Juve and Agnelli see the reality of the situation in Pogba's contract negotiations.  If Pogba was willing to sign a 2-3 million/year contract, he would have done it already.  But the fact that news seems to be slow on his new contract should tell you something.
 
People should remember that we had to take out massive loans to pay for the new stadium and we ran huge deficits after calciopoli and continue to run deficits even with the new stadium.

couple things.

First, we pay Llorente 4.5 a year (our third highest paid player, odd considering he never played a game in italy and we were willing to give him that much) he's as good as gone, we could put that into pogba, who I doubt is trying to get paid like Tevez or buffon (he might be, considering his agent, but considering our "partnership" with him lately, I doubt he'll try to bend us over that bad).

second, considering how cheap we've been lately (losing van persie over an extra 5 million euros, or insisting on a player exchange for jovetic, when both were dying to come here), I doubt he's looking for tevez money.  maybe if you didn't grossly over pay for a defender who at 26 has played 1 year in a top division, you could've afforded one of them, if not both.
 

third, the only person who could have the balls to ask to raise their wage is vidal and marchisio, maybe lichstiener, everyone else is either replaceable or getting old, so they can go kick rocks. I support selling him, when hes in his prime and after a champions league final, not when he's 20. and even if you sell him, who do you buy? its pretty obvious he's going to be world class in a few (he's pretty damn effective now at 20), whomever you bring, assuming they re of equal quality, is going to cost a shit load in transfer fees, and we still have to pay a high salary. or is the plan to continuously hit the lotto with young players who play beyond their years, and when they get some notoriety sell them? are we ready to become the Atalanta of Europe and not win shite?  maybe im just upset but I find this move redundant considering we got him on the free.

oh yeah, and he may not do what marchisio does, but he can definitely displace him. and we play with more pace, he can definetly displace pirlo (considering his age). and I don't buy that whole "Conte sees him everyday in training" thing. if its like that, you should never question any coachs decision ever, and that shouldn't be the case.

Juventude wrote:I'd be ok with that.  I just hope that Juve actually uses any Pogba sale money to reinvest in some top prospects.  The money better not be used to pay down debts.  

Top prospects like say....Pogba?  who make an immediate impact (which is what we need) and are promptly sold because we cant pay them? yeah let spend that money on Januzj, Adryan, and zouma, because if they play to their potential, theyre not going to want a pay raise. this is the way of the world now amongst top clubs, if you cant hang, sell the club and buy Cagliari or something.

Chillax and no need to get worked up over October rumors especially from garbage English papers.

For £40M to be acceptable i'd definitely want us lined up with a World class player, probably upfront.

If not, I'd expect somebody like Verratti and a left back. Because if we're just going to take 40M and re-invest it in unknown quantities who may or may not become half as good as Pogba. Then it's not only a waste of time, but a backwards step

Also, this should not be used to clear our ever reducing debts or to sign a bunch of Padoins.

English papers... think about that for a second. Unless it's the BBC or the Telegraph (i think its them), complete rubbish...

FilthyLuca wrote:

Juventude wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:this is sad, never thought id see the day we became a selling club. makes me want to slap agnelli twice, once for basically cutting Del Piero, and the second for this absurdity.

Go cry poverty somewhere else, you just got 86 mil euros from the cl last year, signed a sponsorship deal with Samsung and those other Koreans last year, and have a new stadium with a freaking mall in it (of which im sure you rake in plenty rent money). Pogba is exactly the type of player we want, if you cant pay him a couple million a year, you need to get the *bleep* out of the sports business.

 
What if it means paying him as one of our top three players right now even though he can't displace Vidal, Pirlo, or Marchisio in Conte's eyes?  Then it causes other players on the team to raise their salary demands and suddenly we are paying more for players than we're bringing in?  Do you support not selling him then?  Juve has sold top players before and so have other top clubs.  It's not that big of a deal if we get a good price for him.  
 
I think Juve and Agnelli see the reality of the situation in Pogba's contract negotiations.  If Pogba was willing to sign a 2-3 million/year contract, he would have done it already.  But the fact that news seems to be slow on his new contract should tell you something.
 
People should remember that we had to take out massive loans to pay for the new stadium and we ran huge deficits after calciopoli and continue to run deficits even with the new stadium.

couple things.

First, we pay Llorente 4.5 a year (our third highest paid player, odd considering he never played a game in italy and we were willing to give him that much) he's as good as gone, we could put that into pogba, who I doubt is trying to get paid like Tevez or buffon (he might be, considering his agent, but considering our "partnership" with him lately, I doubt he'll try to bend us over that bad).

second, considering how cheap we've been lately (losing van persie over an extra 5 million euros, or insisting on a player exchange for jovetic, when both were dying to come here), I doubt he's looking for tevez money.  maybe if you didn't grossly over pay for a defender who at 26 has played 1 year in a top division, you could've afforded one of them, if not both.
 

third, the only person who could have the balls to ask to raise their wage is vidal and marchisio, maybe lichstiener, everyone else is either replaceable or getting old, so they can go kick rocks. I support selling him, when hes in his prime and after a champions league final, not when he's 20. and even if you sell him, who do you buy? its pretty obvious he's going to be world class in a few (he's pretty damn effective now at 20), whomever you bring, assuming they re of equal quality, is going to cost a shit load in transfer fees, and we still have to pay a high salary. or is the plan to continuously hit the lotto with young players who play beyond their years, and when they get some notoriety sell them? are we ready to become the Atalanta of Europe and not win shite?  maybe im just upset but I find this move redundant considering we got him on the free.

oh yeah, and he may not do what marchisio does, but he can definitely displace him. and we play with more pace, he can definetly displace pirlo (considering his age). and I don't buy that whole "Conte sees him everyday in training" thing. if its like that, you should never question any coachs decision ever, and that shouldn't be the case.

First, I think we regret Llorente's contract and I think it will cause us problems in negoatiations with other players currently under contract and new signings.

Second, i agree that he could displace Marchisio, but what I think doesn't matter. Just what Conte thinks matters. You can second guess him, but the reality is that we may have a non-starter asking for top money, which won't sit well with a lot of starters.

I don't disagree with a lot of your points and I actually think Pogba is worth 5 million, but the reality is that Pogba's potential wages could cause a domino effect for other players' contracts and, outside of Llorente, Juve has clearly been making an effort to be much more fiscally responsible with contracts. I'm just trying to explain management's thinking and people need to stop thinking we have an endless amount of money to spend because we have a new stadium. The money to build that stadium didn't appear out of nowhere and we lost a lot of money and value in the club after calciopoli. So, I can hardly blame Juve for trying to make a 40m pound profit on a player. That's free money that could be used to significantly strengthen the squad at 2-3 positions.

It depends what Juve's ambitions are... is the club happy to be a Serie A contender only? Because that's what it's doing right now.

Nothing wrong with that btw. I'm a OM fan and that's all we have lol. But the fans' expectations need to be adjusted then.

Also, the brand gets diluted. It's hard to rebuild that.

Juventude wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:

Juventude wrote: 
What if it means paying him as one of our top three players right now even though he can't displace Vidal, Pirlo, or Marchisio in Conte's eyes?  Then it causes other players on the team to raise their salary demands and suddenly we are paying more for players than we're bringing in?  Do you support not selling him then?  Juve has sold top players before and so have other top clubs.  It's not that big of a deal if we get a good price for him.  
 
I think Juve and Agnelli see the reality of the situation in Pogba's contract negotiations.  If Pogba was willing to sign a 2-3 million/year contract, he would have done it already.  But the fact that news seems to be slow on his new contract should tell you something.
 
People should remember that we had to take out massive loans to pay for the new stadium and we ran huge deficits after calciopoli and continue to run deficits even with the new stadium.

couple things.

First, we pay Llorente 4.5 a year (our third highest paid player, odd considering he never played a game in italy and we were willing to give him that much) he's as good as gone, we could put that into pogba, who I doubt is trying to get paid like Tevez or buffon (he might be, considering his agent, but considering our "partnership" with him lately, I doubt he'll try to bend us over that bad).

second, considering how cheap we've been lately (losing van persie over an extra 5 million euros, or insisting on a player exchange for jovetic, when both were dying to come here), I doubt he's looking for tevez money.  maybe if you didn't grossly over pay for a defender who at 26 has played 1 year in a top division, you could've afforded one of them, if not both.
 

third, the only person who could have the balls to ask to raise their wage is vidal and marchisio, maybe lichstiener, everyone else is either replaceable or getting old, so they can go kick rocks. I support selling him, when hes in his prime and after a champions league final, not when he's 20. and even if you sell him, who do you buy? its pretty obvious he's going to be world class in a few (he's pretty damn effective now at 20), whomever you bring, assuming they re of equal quality, is going to cost a shit load in transfer fees, and we still have to pay a high salary. or is the plan to continuously hit the lotto with young players who play beyond their years, and when they get some notoriety sell them? are we ready to become the Atalanta of Europe and not win shite?  maybe im just upset but I find this move redundant considering we got him on the free.

oh yeah, and he may not do what marchisio does, but he can definitely displace him. and we play with more pace, he can definetly displace pirlo (considering his age). and I don't buy that whole "Conte sees him everyday in training" thing. if its like that, you should never question any coachs decision ever, and that shouldn't be the case.

a)First, I think we regret Llorente's contract and I think it will cause us problems in negoatiations with other players currently under contract and new signings.  

b)Second, i agree that he could displace Marchisio, but what I think doesn't matter.  Just what Conte thinks matters.   You can second guess him, but the reality is that we may have a non-starter asking for top money, which won't sit well with a lot of starters.  

c)I don't disagree with a lot of your points and I actually think Pogba is worth 5 million, but the reality is that Pogba's potential wages could cause a domino effect for other players' contracts and, outside of Llorente, Juve has clearly been making an effort to be much more fiscally responsible with contracts.  I'm just trying to explain management's thinking and people need to stop thinking we have an endless amount of money to spend because we have a new stadium.  The money to build that stadium didn't appear out of nowhere and we lost a lot of money and value in the club after calciopoli.  So, I can hardly blame Juve for trying to make a 40m pound profit on a player.  That's free money that could be used to significantly strengthen the squad at 2-3 positions.

a) I think your right, but if you consider he's on a free (he'll cost a total of 9 million after two years), I think we can sell him and itll be all profit, so we have an escape.
I think, as players, they recognize pogbas on another level (considering his age and all), and its hard to complain when you know someone is better than you and is contributing more than you, to complain about wages, and like I said, if they do complain, only vidal is irreplaceable, maybe lichstiener considering his position.
b) this is true, but he's only a non starter because its conte's choice, because he's obviously starter quality.
c)I agree, id hate to revert to our melo diego amauri days, but man are they frustrating. its hard to think they didn't overpay for ogbonna, and missed out on proven stars like van persie for relatively little money. we really don't need to strengthen 2-3 positions, we just need someone to finish the ridiculous amount of chances we create, that's all. it gives us goals, and stops the counters which is the only reason we really get scored on.

sportsczy wrote:It depends what Juve's ambitions are... is the club happy to be a Serie A contender only?  Because that's what it's doing right now.

Nothing wrong with that btw.  I'm a OM fan and that's all we have lol.  But the fans' expectations need to be adjusted then.

Also, the brand gets diluted.  It's hard to rebuild that.

Preach

sportsczy wrote:It depends what Juve's ambitions are... is the club happy to be a Serie A contender only?  Because that's what it's doing right now.

Nothing wrong with that btw.  I'm a OM fan and that's all we have lol.  But the fans' expectations need to be adjusted then.

Also, the brand gets diluted.  It's hard to rebuild that.

I honestly don't think Juve expected this much success this quickly under Conte and Marotta. I think they thought it would be a steady rise to the top three or four of Serie A. They didn't think it would be a chance to go for our third scudetto in Conte's third year. This was a back-to-back 7th place team with major wage and finance issues.

Juve will be a much different team in terms of finances about three to five years from now. Juve took a financial risk by going ahead with the stadium project even with the financial disasters from calciopoli (the team's stock was a fraction of what it used to be after the scandal if you want to talk rebuilding brands and team's values) and all of the poor spending and ridiculous contracts given to older players. This immediate success under Conte has just been an added bonus to the rebuild of Juventus. That is why if they can move a potential great player like Pogba for almost pure profit and turn him into 2-3 very good young players, they will do that because this is a longer term project.

I am quite positive that Juve will be quite a dominant force in due time. The success right now is great and I think management will spend a reasonable amount of money to maintain our current success and take chances at UCL, but the ownership and management aren't going to harm the club's financial future for short term success. In my opinion, the best is yet to come for Juve financially.

Oh have i heard that every year with OM  We make money every year and we average 40K per game both home and away.  Don't fall into the trap.  If management isn't willing to spend now... they won't in the future.  It comes down to ownership philosophy and that rarely changes.  Only reason we spend a more this year is because the fan groups were filing lawsuits against the owner

Three options to get truly competitive:
-  change philosophy where you invest with the idea that you get additional revenue by winning big and the resulting increase in sponsors/fanbase
-  look for new revenue streams (like what since you already have a new stadium)
-  owner doesn't care about money

Unless Serie A evolves and the media deal creates more revenue, this isn't changing imo.  So the question is whether Serie A will get its act together in 3-5 years.  I'm not so sure about that.

sportsczy wrote:Oh have i heard that every year with OM  We make money every year and we average 40K per game both home and away.  Don't fall into the trap.  If management isn't willing to spend now... they won't in the future.  It comes down to ownership philosophy and that rarely changes.  Only reason we spend a more this year is because the fan groups were filing lawsuits against the owner

Three options to get truly competitive:
-  change philosophy where you invest with the idea that you get additional revenue by winning big and the resulting increase in sponsors/fanbase
-  look for new revenue streams (like what since you already have a new stadium)
-  owner doesn't care about money

Unless Serie A evolves and the media deal creates more revenue, this isn't changing imo.  So the question is whether Serie A will get its act together in 3-5 years.  I'm not so sure about that.

 
You can't even compare OM to Juve.  It's not the same at all.  The histories, ownership, and success are completely different.  I get your points, but you're comparing two completely different teams with very different financial situations.  It doesn't take much to look up articles on Juve's financial issues since 2006 and you can't ignore those factors when discussing Juve's current position.  
 
As for revenue streams, please look at the article i recently posted on finances.  No one likes to read or comment on those articles I post on that subject because they hate to see that we're still running deficits because we are paying off loans (for stadiums and other costs) and transfers from post-calciopoli.  Juve's revenues are definitely up, but we still have to pay off past costs.  
 
You don't have to have a fiscally irresponsible owner to win.  Plenty of teams are fiscally responsible and win.  Juve won before by balancing budgets and I'm convinced they can still do it today even with oligarchs buying up football teams.  


To your point on Serie A, there are problems, but you also have to look at the factor that Juve is going to become financially more dominant over its league rivals and that will have financial gains that may offset media contract declines. If Juve keeps rising financially with its own stadium while other clubs miss out on that revenue, that creates a disparity for Juve that they can exploit. But, in the very long run, Juve does need Serie A as a whole to fix itself.

I respect your posts, but you can't compare Juve's situation to OM. I'm sorry, but, aside from a few similarities, there just isn't much there in that comparison. Like I said, the best is yet to come from Juve. We're only in year two of actually owning our own stadium.

Very good post Juventude.


I am not opposed to selling Pogba, and I don't think it shows a lack of ambition. Purely because he's not an undisputed starter by any means and we got him for free.

It would be very different if we were openly talking about selling Vidal or somebody.

I am opposed however, to taking this money and using it to 'balance books' or to invest in youth (We've got plenty of youth, there's no need to gamble on more when our first team also clearly has problem areas)

Come on.  You are selling the most talented young CM in the world.  Wenger called him a phenom just tonight as did Lizerazu.... he's clearly considered a footy phenom.

You can't sell him and say you're being ambitious.  Lets get real here.

Just so you know, Pogba was stunningly good the last 2 NT games. He played the CM in a 4231 and bossed. He had room to roam around...

It all depends on how you use the money

If we used it to pay off some more loans and bought a few subs, then we'd be right to call for lack of ambition

But if we sold our current 4th choice CM to buy 2 starting XI players, then that's not showing a lack of ambition.

You really think Pogba is your 4th choice CM? He's started every game for Juve this year... and most of the game in the 2nd half of last year.

I know you guys are trying to sugar-coat it. But there's just no way to do it... just like Madrid selling Ozil. It's stupid. You don't sell this kind of talent, especially when he's only 20.

Marchisio was injured this season

Last season only Vucinic was performing upfront and we experimented with Marchisio as the SS.

He is our 4th choice midfielder currently. He is the first option off of the bench, and gets plenty of time. But a fit Vidal, Pirlo and Marchisio all start.

You're telling me that Marchisio played more and better than Pogba in the second half of last season???? He started 14 of the 19 Serie A games for Juve after the turn of the year last season dude.

Like Juventude said,nobody expected such a fast rise to the top.We probably saw this as a 5-6 year project where in due time the financial results will aid the sporting ones.

I know why Juve arent spending big money right now.They have a long term vision to make the club a self-sustainable and profitable company in the future and i totally understand why they arent taking 'risks' right now because there were a few big money moves in the past which failed dramatically.Not every club has the PSG philosophy in which like half of their revenue is aided by some dodgy sponsorship deal.

And i'd say Juve are 'investing' money in the right areas with a view to generate additional revenue namely the Continassa project which once fully realized will enable the club to earn a big chunk of money.Not to mention we have a new kit sponsorship deal coming up and roped in many other commercial sponsors too like Samsung,Bwin just to name a few.See,we are doing things what in my view the 'right' way doesnt matter if it takes time to increase revenue streams.

We are in the same situation as Arsenal were few years ago except that the competition in the league is less with the rest of the league being broke helping our cause.In due time i have no doubt we will spend big.Seriously that OM comparison doesnt make sense at all.Juve have always been a spending club and had Farsopoli not happened we'd be in a Bayern-esque financial situation right now and you wouldnt sit here and call Juve for being unambitious.Maybe you need to pay more attention to what the club is doing off the pitch and in the process ensuring the club has a bright future than making such remarks.

sportsczy wrote:You're telling me that Marchisio played more and better than Pogba in the second half of last season????  He started 14 of the 19 Serie A games for Juve after the turn of the year last season dude.

You are aware that the games he started last year were 80% form the bench, and that this year he had few incossistent games the boy is talented but give him some time ffs or you'll get another Balo. So he hasn't played full season ter for any team calm down. This boy is going to be WC and he is short of it now, has unlimited potential but that is the future give him time

Selling Pogba may be seen as a bad move right now(or in the coming seasons) but if we're smart in the transfer market ,the sale will be forgotten in no time.

1.It will enable somebody like Asamoah move back to his natural CM position and act as depth.
2.We can buy a proper replacement for Pirlo(which the team desperately needs) without spending too much money be it Hernanes,Verratti or someone else.
3.Additional money to reinforce other areas namely in attack.See like i said this is where we need to careful and smart with the money.And we can still be competitive enough.

All these assumptions are made considering we'd only sell Pogba if an 'insane' offer came in otherwise we wouldnt sell him.I have no doubt most of the money will go into reinvesting on new players if we sold him.

S wrote:Selling Pogba may be seen as a bad move right now(or in the coming seasons) but if we're smart in the transfer market ,the sale will be forgotten in no time.

1.It will enable somebody like Asamoah move back to his natural CM position and act as depth.
2.We can buy a proper replacement for Pirlo(which the team desperately needs) without spending too much money be it Hernanes,Verratti or someone else.
3.Additional money to reinforce other areas namely in attack.See like i said this is where we need to careful and smart with the money.And we can still be competitive enough.

All these assumptions are made considering we'd only sell Pogba if an 'insane' offer came in otherwise we wouldnt sell him.I have no doubt most of the money will go into reinvesting on new players if we sold him.

+99

Good LB + Hernanes/Veratti and I will be more than satisfied

we have cacktraw, we should do business

Monnies + him and Di Maria

fap

Also one more thing,lets not forget we brought him for free.

Juve havent had the chance to make a profit on player sales for years.I mean even Madrid managed to do it this year with the Oezil and Higuain.More often than not we've made losses selling players for half their value in the past.

So yeah,selling him for 40-50m would be a magnificent deal from a business standpoint.

Also i personally would like a straight up money deal than a cash + swap deal.

Pogba + 5-10 mil or straight swap for Suarez mama mia that would make my day