Re: UEFA Financial Fair Play

by S Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:03 am

Europe's governing body claims clubs are benefiting from improved financial stability despite the likes of Monaco and Real Madrid splashing out this summer

Financial Fair Play (FFP) is working well despite the enormous sums being spent in the summer transfer window, according to Uefa general secretary Gianni Infantino.

The likes of Monaco have spent lavish sums over the past two seasons, with the Ligue 1 newboys investing upwards of €130 million this summer alone on new signings - although their absence from European competition allows them certain leeway.

Meanwhile, Arsenal boss Arsene Wenger claimed Real Madrid's proposed €115m bid for Gareth Bale "made a joke" of Uefa's regulations, but Infantino has made it clear that such a sum is easily possible for a club which generates sufficient income.

He told the Press Association: "People see these signings and ask how it can happen with Financial Fair Play but it's possible - if you generate €100m you can spend €100m.

"The other thing which must be taken into account is that a club may have an agreement to pay that over five years, so the cost is €20m for the season.

"The problem comes is if a club doesn't generate €100m but spends it - then there will be disciplinary consequences."

The likes of Malaga and Panathinaikos have been hit with sanctions having failed to adhere to FFP guidelines, and, while Infantino acknowledges that banning clubs from competitions is tough for some to take, he insists Uefa's efforts are paying dividends on the whole.

"No one likes to punish clubs but we will do it," he continued. "In the last five years we have excluded 41 clubs from European competition and eight this season have not been admitted.

"It is quite positive. It shows financial fair play is working and that it's happening right now. Overall losses in European club football are down for the first time, and by several hundreds of millions [of euros]."

by Milantildeath Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:13 am

The only team it isn't a joke to is Milan. I can't tell you how many times we have heard we aren't making purchases because of financial fair play. In reality Don Silvio has no more extra money to spend.

by VanDeezNuts Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:30 pm

or what about poor malaga, cant even play in europe this year.

by Zealous Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:07 pm

sportsczy wrote:
ShogunShogun wrote:Madrid spent 90m euros on Cristiano Ronaldo and 80m euros on Zidane, money that wasn't even their own, was loaned from the banks, Uefa and nobody else had a problem. There is no doubt that UEFA created the FFP to prevent smaller clubs breaking the statues que of the elite clubs.
No interest loans to boot, which were extinguished somehow with real estate that was nowhere near the value of the loan. I'm a Madrid fan... but i also understand that we do get help when we need it.

Economies of scale brah Cool

by VendettaRed07 Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:21 pm

The worst part is that it works backwards and goes completely against what it was even trying to do. It hurts smaller teams more than it does the super rich teams.

Just make a cap ffs.

by Zealous Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:26 pm

Cap for what exactly? Spending? Wages? Just transfer fees? Debt?

Setting a groundwork that would make all the clubs happy is almost impossible. If your rules are filled with loopholes the glass ceiling becomes a brick one for small clubs. If you force the big clubs to give up too much then they break away from UEFA and form a super league which would pretty much cripple UEFA on a club level.

by VendettaRed07 Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:37 pm

The big clubs wouldnt be crippled but somethings got to be done to curb results. Title races have become very dull and generally the title is won before the season starts.

I think a cap on wages would be more effective than the fee because it comes down to the player. They'll want to go to the team that is able to pay them the most. Itll make teams have to think harder before they give wages to players nobody else can compete with.

I think with at least that well see a wider variety of where great players choose to go.

It doesn't even need to be a hard cap, maybe a soft one like the NBA where there are thresholds and certain limits where you can only go above them by using certain exceptions etc.

Limiting what teams are able to spend on transfers wouldn't work because it would hurt smaller teams who want to get big returns for players who do want to leave.

by Grooverider Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:41 pm

Zealous wrote:Cap for what exactly? Spending? Wages? Just transfer fees? Debt?

Setting a groundwork that would make all the clubs happy is almost impossible. If your rules are filled with loopholes the glass ceiling becomes a brick one for small clubs. If you force the big clubs to give up too much then they break away from UEFA and form a super league which would pretty much cripple UEFA on a club level.

Would love to see this actually happen.

Sorry Platini, now here is your jobseekers

by zizzle Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:09 pm

Milantildeath wrote:The only team it isn't a joke to is Milan. I can't tell you how many times we have heard we aren't making purchases because of financial fair play. In reality Don Silvio has no more extra money to spend.

by Blue Barrett Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:43 pm

VendettaRed07 wrote:The big clubs wouldnt be crippled but somethings got to be done to curb results. Title races have become very dull and generally the title is won before the season starts.

I think a cap on wages would be more effective than the fee because it comes down to the player. They'll want to go to the team that is able to pay them the most. Itll make teams have to think harder before they give wages to players nobody else can compete with.

I think with at least that well see a wider variety of where great players choose to go.

It doesn't even need to be a hard cap, maybe a soft one like the NBA where there are thresholds and certain limits where you can only go above them by using certain exceptions etc.

Limiting what teams are able to spend on transfers wouldn't work because it would hurt smaller teams who want to get big returns for players who do want to leave.

What you're saying doesn't actually concern UEFA. That's the job of the respective leagues if they want such. UEFA will only ban you from playing in European competitions. They won't ban you from playing in your league or any other local competition.

A cap idea is horrible either way. You're no going to change anything except, as Zealous said, make the big clubs break away from UEFA and form a super league.

by VendettaRed07 Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:35 am

It will take a lot more than that imo for teams to just quit and form an entirely new super league. I think some rules uefa can reach over to how teams opperate in their own leagues and competition as well.

Even if that wouldn't work, still I think that they could do at least something better than ffp because its flopped about as hard as it possibly could have

by Blue Barrett Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:50 am

You basically want to cripple some top clubs for the sake of relegation teams?

by zizzle Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:44 am

a super league is a stupid idea as big matches start to lose their "glamour" when the start happening regularly. e.g classico

by fatman123 Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:02 am

Breaking away into a 'super league' is a very drastic move, i doubt any club would be to keen to try something like that.

Plus theres the thing of waiting to see who'd break off first, if the two Manchester clubs broke off and joined a super league, perhaps Chelsea, Spuds and Arsenal would then stay in the PL because theres so much less competition for them

by VendettaRed07 Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:22 am

Why don't teams that hover around the promotion/relegation zone matter? There used to be a time when if a team that got promoted into the top flight managed to build and make the right moves it wasn't crazy for them to imagine fighting for the title in due time. Leeds got promoted in 1990 and won the league in 1992..But I don't see anything like that being even remotely possible now with the way things currently are. Do we really want the leagues to be full of glorified farm teams?

Im not saying cripple any team or break down say Madrid financially to where they have to sell Ronaldo to sevilla or something like that to level the playing field.

There is nothing wrong with having a wealthy owner, or having a rich team. What I would like to see is someone at least putting a limit on the excess. Its the excess spending that is very bothersome and just seems bad for the sport overall. Richer teams don't have to really be careful when they make a massive investment. They can buy players that they aren't even sure will even work with their team and give them superstar wages just to have them, worsen their competition, and keep them happy if they end up staying on the bench.

If richer clubs spend what they have wisely and in the right areas they won't be crippled. But I don't see whats so wrong with at least finding some sort of way, whatever it is, to make richer teams not be able to just shrug off a bad investment or wreckless spending

by Blue Barrett Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:22 am

VendettaRed07 wrote:Why don't teams that hover around the promotion/relegation zone matter? There used to be a time when if a team that got promoted into the top flight managed to build and make the right moves it wasn't crazy for them to imagine fighting for the title in due time. Leeds got promoted in 1990 and won the league in 1992..But I don't see anything like that being even remotely possible now with the way things currently are. Do we really want the leagues to be full of glorified farm teams?

Im not saying cripple any team or break down say Madrid financially to where they have to sell Ronaldo to sevilla or something like that to level the playing field.

There is nothing wrong with having a wealthy owner, or having a rich team. What I would like to see is someone at least putting a limit on the excess. Its the excess spending that is very bothersome and just seems bad for the sport overall. Richer teams don't have to really be careful when they make a massive investment. They can buy players that they aren't even sure will even work with their team and give them superstar wages just to have them, worsen their competition, and keep them happy if they end up staying on the bench.

If richer clubs spend what they have wisely and in the right areas they won't be crippled. But I don't see whats so wrong with at least finding some sort of way, whatever it is, to make richer teams not be able to just shrug off a bad investment or wreckless spending

I'm not saying teams in the relegation zone matter less. On the other hand, you're trying to make relegation teams seem more important than the top clubs(whether you realise that's what you're doing or not).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with spending to better your team if you have the means. Nothing good comes free(for the most part). That's like saying a billionaire business man should spend less on cars just so the price of a Lamborghini can be reduced by the sellers(supply/demand, if that makes sense to you) to the point where the middle class man can afford it. That doesn't add up.

There's no reason to punish a rich man for being rich.

And this isn't 1992 btw, that was over 20 years ago. Things change.

by Blue Barrett Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:24 am

zizzle wrote:a super league is a stupid idea as big matches start to lose their "glamour" when the start happening regularly. e.g classico

fatman123 wrote:Breaking away into a 'super league' is a very drastic move, i doubt any club would be to keen to try something like that.

Plus theres the thing of waiting to see who'd break off first, if the two Manchester clubs broke off and joined a super league, perhaps Chelsea, Spuds and Arsenal would then stay in the PL because theres so much less competition for them

Super League a.k.a another Champions' League. Not another Premier League. This doesn't affect the respective local leagues.

by VendettaRed07 Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:09 am

I know 20 years was a long time ago, but when you look at it as most have been around for 100+ years, its not that long. And the whole reason that the ground basis of how the leagues operate and why promotion/relegation even exists in the first place was in the spirit of what I mention earlier.

And as times change why cant rules change with them? I don't think limiting top teams from going crazy or having certain restrictions is the same as punishment. How rich your owner is shouldn't play as much of a part in deciding who has the ability to compete as it does in todays game.

Should it be A factor? Absolutely. But as it stands, the advantage it has with the current rules in place is just too big. Curbing in some way doesn't make smaller clubs more important, it just changes the dynamic of what it takes to make your team better.

And the whole rich/poor man thing isn't the same. In the end, Football is entertainment, and is for the people, and clubs are bigger than just their owners or players, its the fans that make them into what they are. But fans need hope. And the amount of hope smaller teams have of climbing the ladder is shrinking and I think that is a problem. But I guess I can't make anyone else see it the exact way that I do.

by rwo power Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:20 am

I merged the other FFP threads with the current one - in the first post you can find the excellent Swiss Ramble FFP explanation now.

by S Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:28 am

Clark Whitney @Mr_Bundesliga
Good read on how Real Madrid & Barcelona have received illegal state aid & investigation has suspiciously been stalled

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/exclusive-real-madrid-and-barcelona-face-removal-of-privileges-8749147.html

by aleumdance Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:41 am

this is how fvcked up the FFP is

The epl as a whole has 199 Million in cash reserves

Arsenal alone has 154 Million in Cash reserves

but we STILL, can't compete with Citeh or Chelsea to sign players because they have found ways across the FFP.

Platini should never have brought the rule in first place.

by free_cat Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:54 am

S wrote:Clark Whitney @Mr_Bundesliga
Good read on how Real Madrid & Barcelona have received illegal state aid & investigation has suspiciously been stalled

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/exclusive-real-madrid-and-barcelona-face-removal-of-privileges-8749147.html

It would be nice if it was true, but it isn't. Real Madrid and Barcelona are subject to the same tax laws than every other club in Spain.
Not the case of Athletic Club Bilbao or any other basque clubs, as Basque country has its own tax laws and can even issue special rullings, although I have no idea if they give any privilege to Athletic and Real Sociedad.

by Adit Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:08 pm

free_cat wrote:
S wrote:Clark Whitney @Mr_Bundesliga
Good read on how Real Madrid & Barcelona have received illegal state aid & investigation has suspiciously been stalled

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/exclusive-real-madrid-and-barcelona-face-removal-of-privileges-8749147.html
It would be nice if it was true, but it isn't. Real Madrid and Barcelona are subject to the same tax laws than every other club in Spain.
Not the case of Athletic Club Bilbao or any other basque clubs, as Basque country has its own tax laws and can even issue special rullings, although I have no idea if they give any privilege to Athletic and Real Sociedad.

''Independent'' has been on a writing spree on this subject rofl

And in all of their articles they dont specify what exactly is the tax difference between these clubs..

Seems like donkee league dont want to lose Bale hmm

by S Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:07 pm

aleumdance wrote:this is how fvcked up the FFP is

The epl as a whole has 199 Million in cash reserves

Arsenal alone has 154 Million in Cash reserves

but we STILL, can't compete with Citeh or Chelsea to sign players because they have found ways across the FFP.

Platini should never have brought the rule in first place.

I suggest you to read the whole article before banging on about Arsenal's 'mighty' cash reserves.

by S Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:29 pm

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2013/08/15/4188170/financial-fair-play-is-making-the-rich-richer-and-keeping?ICID=HP_FT_1

by Forza Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:42 pm

How can the Spanish govt. give Madrid and Barca money when over a quarter of their people are unemployed?

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