2013-14 'Blue-Print'- Discussion of Transfers, Tactical Changes etc.

danyjr wrote:

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Now going to Barcelona. One thing that's obvious is that your midfield has never been the quickest midfield, but nowadays its about the slowest midfield you see in top football clubs. Pressing with a Xavi who's aged and much needs a break, a player in Iniesta who is not known for his work rate, and a slow Busquets and Piqué is not only easy, it doesn't seem to me the most effective way to 'defend'. You either need to change your line-up or introduce tactics that suit your current team.
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Spot on.....
These are some of the factors that effected Spain's game as well in the cup.

Iniesta's work rate used to be nothing to complain about. However this season and maybe even the previous one it has not been of similar nature. One of the things I have noticed several times while watching Iniesta is how he used to be seen in one box and very soon in the other box. Last season or two this visual has been rare if at all there. All this discussion about various players being at fault leads me to think that the actual problem is that there is something fundamentally wrong with the coaching and the training as it happened in the last years of Frank Rijkaard. Maybe not as much complacency as then but not up to the level of Pep's inspired and hungry team of the first two or three years.

free_cat wrote:I don't agree with you (Alexjansik) in absolutely anything and I think you are very wrong. No need to repeat myself cause I already explained the reasons.

Just one question though, if Messi is the problem, how do you explain that we pressed well from 2009/10  until 2010/11 if Messi already didn't press much?
We even pressed better than today in 2009/10 with... Ibra and Messi walking around!

You said that it was not possible to press effectively against a team that plays out from the back like we do.I proved you conclusively wrong by pointing out the Madrid games where they pressed relentlessly.
Or are you denying the fact that Madrid press brilliantly versus us?Are you denying the fact that Madrid cause our defenders problems with their pressing?Are you denying the fact that Madrid have scored goals against us by winning the ball early in our half?
So on that pressing count you are wrong.If you still stick to what you say,then please provide proof.You merely saying that its not possible to press effectively against a team that plays out of the back like we do, without backing it up,is not going to stand.

In my post I have said that the modern game doesn't afford a luxury player like Messi and that for a team to be at the very top every player needs to defend.Now you say that I am wrong.Kindly point out a single elite team with a player who puts in zero effort like Messi.Also please tell me how you plan for us to win against the big guns(who will defend with everyone) with our star player walking around.I need tactics and formation to show that its possible to win against Bayern/Madrid/Dortmund with Messi walking.Otherwise you are again wrong.

Regarding your view that its not worth it to risk Messi getting injured,its your opinion.I disagree but lets leave that point.

Regarding your question,Messi did press in 09-10.Even then he didn't press as much as the others but it was far more than in the previous 2 seasons.Then he would atleast close down the player with the ball.Right now all he does is walk or stand still.

messixaviesta wrote:Very interesting discussion. Amidst the variation in various opinions I suppose all of us can agree to one key point. We can't leave such few players behind to defend if we don't press well. It's nothing short of SUICIDAL. At times while watching the match as a fan if the opposition is dominating and especially when it is top quality opposition you just sit petrified as to how many goals you will end up conceding.

The other point that I want to add is that I am not sure if it would be possible to restore certain aspects of our game, above all the pressing of course, to their erstwhile standards. If that isn't possible then the only way out I can think of is to innovate more tactically. The dominance of tiki tiki at least in the way our team and players have been playing it in the last few years is coming to an end. Our passes are intercepted so much more easily than they used to. The biggest reason I feel this is happening is because teams have spent years working overtime trying to find a crack to this game style to which they had no answer for so long and it seems like they have finally cracked it. A theory goes that a tactical style no matter how great eventually fails as time goes on. The death of the conventional number 10 can be a good example of this. The other reason could be that some of our players who have joined the team more recently are not good passers of the ball.

alex, I have a question for you. Cruyff used to play as a false number 9. Please enlighten me as to how much he contributed to other aspects of the team's game especially pressing and off the ball movement.

He was the smartest player ever jd.
Pressing like nowadays was just not possible back then because it was allowed to pass back to the keeper.So Cruyff wouldn't go press the CB's or the GK as it would be pointless.But he helped out defensively a lot.
For example,since they played Total Football,the midfielders would often venture forward.Neeskens and Muhren would step forward and Cruyff would step back to cover.Then when he dropped to the left,he would help out defensively and cover the LB.He was also quite a decent tackler.
Off the ball movement,he offered a lot.He wasn't like Messi who always comes towards the ball and plays like a 10.Cruyff played false 9.His entire philosophy was built on space and exploiting it.So that meant movement off the ball to create space for himself and for others.He would drop to the wings,he would make runs to create space elsewhere.The perfect example of his movement would be the 72 European Cup final.Inter played defense and Cruyff had very little space.In that game he played very little on the ball.Offered good movement throughout and scored 2 goals.
Now in such a situation Messi would have insisted on coming towards the ball every single time and collecting the ball at the midfield line(he has done it numerous times against parked buses).Cruyff was patient and smart and knew that the midfield would get him the ball in dangerous areas.And they did.

alex, thanks for a wonderful detailed reply.

About the point that alex has raised let me make my views plain and simple.

It's hard to say a word against Messi since in the last one or two seasons he has been running the show for us kind of single handedly but I just don't like what is happening. As most here know I hate the "one man team" thing more than anyone else. One player no matter how great should never be bigger than the team. That happens at small teams and that's why they remain small teams but in a top class team there is no place for that. Unfortunately our coaches and think tank in the last couple of seasons or so have become a bit too obsessed with Messi for my liking. They are doing everything to make him the best player possible but are they also looking carefully at whether the team is being benefited most? Whether in terms of signings or in terms of tactics or anything else that kind of thinking seems unfortunately absent. Several players have been undermined at various times to give Messi maximum benefit and some of those decisions have not been in the best interests of the team.

Say for example when the football watching world felt that Barcelona just couldn't play without Messi whether it be the second leg against PSG or the hammering against Bayern. In this context let's ask ourselves why this happened. Some think that Messi is too good a player and thus a team containing him won't be able to play without him. However I question that if the tactical thinking had not been geared towards making the team so dependent on one man would this really have happened? Look at the rest of our squad minus Messi. Do they really look so bad as to not even be able to compete without Messi? In the first half of 2009-10 season we played a game against Inter Milan and completely outplayed them 2-0 without Messi on the pitch. Why have we completely lost our ability to do that now? My feeling is because our coaches are just not making any effort to make the team come out of Messi dependence. If anything they are only championing it and Tito's recent comments on these lines I found really disappointing.

One key point here that I would like to highlight is letting one player be both your 9 and 10. I think that's a terrible thing to do. If Messi wanted to be a 9 (false or whatever) then he should have been asked to curb his midfielder/playmaker desires to some extent. alex has explained this very well with Messi wanting to always come towards the ball. If instead Messi wanted to be a 10 then we should have bought a top class fox in the box to take advantage of every creation of Messi and others. Here Messi would have to sacrifice his goal scoring numbers. However not asking him to sacrifice even one of this is just not in the team's best interests in just my opinion.

The person who I think first saw this problem was our long since disappeared poster batman. When he first shared these thoughts almost all of us didn't agree with him and some were particularly venomous. However looking at how things have panned out since then I wonder if that guy had a greater ability to foresee the future than most of us. I first noticed this problem from the beginning of the 2011-12 season but maybe the signs were there from even earlier.

Pep was the first one to see the problem. As soon as your team stopped to press properly he left. I knew it was a sign of decline.
If you play Messi as AM he needs much more work rate. He needs to run and defend a lot. If he commits to 9 role most of his attributes will go to waste. In other words, Barca will be very weak if Messi plays AM (unless you have a freak pressing forward who is super clinical at the same time) or you'll make Messi less of a player. Playing him on the wings doesn't make sense either. He isn't able to track the opposing fullback like Pedro or Sanchez.
We had the same problem with Ronaldo but he learned to support his fullback in important games. He even helps out in midfield and plays much more withdrawn compared to his first two years.

I think the decline of other players bar Messi started in 2012 Super cup, where Madrid were pwning slow and uninterested Barcelona. And it was Messi who beat Madrid single handedly, even without preseason.

From that point players have been just counting on Messi's quality, rather than trying to master their own, and it has been near peak Messi who has been carrying Barcelona.

Alba is a great example of player who hasn't won it all, and he has the hunger to try to be the best every game.

Babun wrote:We had the same problem with Ronald but he learned to support his fullback in important games. He even helps out in midfield and plays much more withdrawn compared to his first two years.

Awkward moment when Messi had more interceptions and tackles than Cronaldo last season.

Harmonica wrote:I think the decline of other players bar Messi started in 2012 Super cup, where Madrid were pwning slow and uninterested Barcelona. And it was Messi who beat Madrid single handedly, even without preseason.

From that point players have been just counting on Messi's quality, rather than trying to master their own, and it has been near peak Messi who has been carrying Barcelona.

Alba is a great example of player who hasn't won it all, and he has the hunger to try to be the best every game.

That's a different perspective which could be somewhat true. I however think that the biggest problem lies in the coaching and the lack of direction from the think tank in the last couple of years or so.

messixaviesta wrote:About the point that alex has raised let me make my views plain and simple.

It's hard to say a word against Messi since in the last one or two seasons he has been running the show for us kind of single handedly but I just don't like what is happening. As most here know I hate the "one man team" thing more than anyone else. One player no matter how great should never be bigger than the team. That happens at small teams and that's why they remain small teams but in a top class team there is no place for that. Unfortunately our coaches and think tank in the last couple of seasons or so have become a bit too obsessed with Messi for my liking. They are doing everything to make him the best player possible but are they also looking carefully at whether the team is being benefited most? Whether in terms of signings or in terms of tactics or anything else that kind of thinking seems unfortunately absent. Several players have been undermined at various times to give Messi maximum benefit and some of those decisions have not been in the best interests of the team.

Say for example when the football watching world felt that Barcelona just couldn't play without Messi whether it be the second leg against PSG or the hammering against Bayern. In this context let's ask ourselves why this happened. Some think that Messi is too good a player and thus a team containing him won't be able to play without him. However I question that if the tactical thinking had not been geared towards making the team so dependent on one man would this really have happened? Look at the rest of our squad minus Messi. Do they really look so bad as to not even be able to compete without Messi? In the first half of 2009-10 season we played a game against Inter Milan and completely outplayed them 2-0 without Messi on the pitch. Why have we completely lost our ability to do that now? My feeling is because our coaches are just not making any effort to make the team come out of Messi dependence. If anything they are only championing it and Tito's recent comments on these lines I found really disappointing.

One key point here that I would like to highlight is letting one player be both your 9 and 10. I think that's a terrible thing to do. If Messi wanted to be a 9 (false or whatever) then he should have been asked to curb his midfielder/playmaker desires to some extent. alex has explained this very well with Messi wanting to always come towards the ball. If instead Messi wanted to be a 10 then we should have bought a top class fox in the box to take advantage of every creation of Messi and others. Here Messi would have to sacrifice his goal scoring numbers. However not asking him to sacrifice even one of this is just not in the team's best interests in just my opinion.

The person who I think first saw this problem was our long since disappeared poster batman. When he first shared these thoughts almost all of us didn't agree with him and some were particularly venomous. However looking at how things have panned out since then I wonder if that guy had a greater ability to foresee the future than most of us. I first noticed this problem from the beginning of the 2011-12 season but maybe the signs were there from even earlier.

A nice piece....cant disagree a bit....

Babun wrote:Pep was the first one to see the problem. As soon as your team stopped to press properly he left. I knew it was a sign of decline.
If you play Messi as AM he needs much more work rate. He needs to run and defend a lot. If he commits to 9 role most of his attributes will go to waste. In other words, Barca will be very weak if Messi plays AM (unless you have a freak pressing forward who is super clinical at the same time) or you'll make Messi less of a player. Playing him on the wings doesn't make sense either. He isn't able to track the opposing fullback like Pedro or Sanchez.
We had the same problem with Ronaldo but he learned to support his fullback in important games. He even helps out in midfield and plays much more withdrawn compared to his first two years.

Dont know what are you talking about ......So Pep realized the problem and left??? Funny
And don know since when an attacking mid needs to defend a lot. And also Pep showed 9 role brings out his best and you say its a waste...
Again Messi is moved from wing not because he cant support the FB rather he can contribute more in central role.
For Ronaldo its a whole different story, dont bother discussing here....

Harmonica wrote:I think the decline of other players bar Messi started in 2012 Super cup, where Madrid were pwning slow and uninterested Barcelona. And it was Messi who beat Madrid single handedly, even without preseason.

From that point players have been just counting on Messi's quality, rather than trying to master their own, and it has been near peak Messi who has been carrying Barcelona.

Alba is a great example of player who hasn't won it all, and he has the hunger to try to be the best every game.

I have to partly agree with this as well.....Most of our players failed to show the similar hunger we had in 1st 3 seasons of Pep's. Maybe it has something to do with psychological issues as well.....

Thiago is gone. A travesty.

Our board

neuro11 wrote:

Babun wrote:Pep was the first one to see the problem. As soon as your team stopped to press properly he left. I knew it was a sign of decline.
If you play Messi as AM he needs much more work rate. He needs to run and defend a lot. If he commits to 9 role most of his attributes will go to waste. In other words, Barca will be very weak if Messi plays AM (unless you have a freak pressing forward who is super clinical at the same time) or you'll make Messi less of a player. Playing him on the wings doesn't make sense either. He isn't able to track the opposing fullback like Pedro or Sanchez.
We had the same problem with Ronaldo but he learned to support his fullback in important games. He even helps out in midfield and plays much more withdrawn compared to his first two years.

Dont know what are you talking about ......So Pep realized the problem and left??? Funny
And don know since when an attacking mid needs to defend a lot. And also Pep showed 9 role brings out his best and you say its a waste...
Again Messi is moved from wing not because he cant support the FB rather he can contribute more in central role.
For Ronaldo its a whole different story, dont bother discussing here....

Attacking mids need to track back. Show me any attacking mid at any top club that doesn't track back. You don't have to explain to me why he was moved central. He is sharing both CF and AM duties as false 9. The time has come for him to commit to one role. Either he becomes a full time 9 and makes lots of off the ball runs with little number of touches => his other attributes would be less used, like dribbling, final ball etc. Or he stays at AM full time  to share the job with a CF in front of him. In this case, there're 2 problems: either he starts to track back like any other AM or you build a rock solid midfield with destroyers behind him. Busquet+Xavi are too slow to defend the backline each time Messi loses the ball upfront unless Messi tracks back.

Babun wrote:
Attacking mids need to track back. Show me any attacking mid at any top club that doesn't track back. You don't have to explain to me why he was moved central. He is sharing both CF and AM duties as false 9. The time has come for him to commit to one role. Either he becomes a full time 9 and makes lots of off the ball runs with little number of touches => his other attributes would be less used, like dribbling, final ball etc. Or he stays at AM full time  to share the job with a CF in front of him. In this case, there're 2 problems: either he starts to track back like any other AM or you build a rock solid midfield with destroyers behind him. Busquet+Xavi are too slow to defend the backline each time Messi loses the ball upfront unless Messi tracks back.

Ofcourse any midfielder may need to track back for the support of the team, but when you mention he needs to defend a lot, certainly thats not the attacking midfielder. i atleast don know many player like this.
Messi to choose a specific role has long been discussed among us here and the conclusions were similar what you have mentioned.

neuro11 wrote:

Babun wrote:
Attacking mids need to track back. Show me any attacking mid at any top club that doesn't track back. You don't have to explain to me why he was moved central. He is sharing both CF and AM duties as false 9. The time has come for him to commit to one role. Either he becomes a full time 9 and makes lots of off the ball runs with little number of touches => his other attributes would be less used, like dribbling, final ball etc. Or he stays at AM full time  to share the job with a CF in front of him. In this case, there're 2 problems: either he starts to track back like any other AM or you build a rock solid midfield with destroyers behind him. Busquet+Xavi are too slow to defend the backline each time Messi loses the ball upfront unless Messi tracks back.

Ofcourse any midfielder may need to track back for the support of the team, but when you mention he needs to defend a lot, certainly thats not the attacking midfielder. i atleast don know many player like this.
Messi to choose a specific role has long been discussed among us here and the conclusions were similar what you have mentioned.

Which version is favoured then? Messi as AM or Messi as 9?

I don't see how this is all Messi's fault lol
so because Xavi is old and slow along with Pique and Buscuit we blame Messi for lack of pressurel??
I blame our board for losing out on a player like Thiago, or not buying a faster centerback.
the only thing keeping us relatively alive in top team competition is Messi, and the dumb statement of you rather risk Messi injury is stupidity like i said without him we'd have Cesc on his spot aka only scores against teams in relegation zone.

Also as it stands...

Starting 11
------------------Valdes
Dani Alves---Pique-------Mascherano---Alba
-----------------Buscuit
------------Xavi---------Iniesta
--Pedro-----------Messi----------Neymar

Subs
------------------Pinto
Montoya---Bartra--------Puyol---Adriano
------------------Song
-------S.Roberto----------Rafinha??
--Sanchez--------Cesc--------------Tello

After one CB, that's 21 players squad Tito has been talking about.

Donuts wrote:Also as it stands...

Starting 11
------------------Valdes
Dani Alves---Pique-------Mascherano---Alba
-----------------Buscuit
------------Xavi---------Iniesta
--Pedro-----------Messi----------Neymar

Subs
------------------Pinto
Montoya---Bartra--------Puyol---Adriano
------------------Song
-------S.Roberto----------Rafinha??
--Sanchez--------Cesc--------------Tello

I thought he was loaned to Vigo?

He is on loan at Celta de Vigo.

Which reminds me, Barcelona B are going down to third division next season.

danyjr wrote:He is on loan at Celta de Vigo.

Which reminds me, Barcelona B are going down to third division next season.

Why?? They have the capability to easily get enough points to get past relegation. Need a better coach still...

The Sanchez wrote:

danyjr wrote:He is on loan at Celta de Vigo.

Which reminds me, Barcelona B are going down to third division next season.

Why?? They have the capability to easily get enough points to get past relegation. Need a better coach still...

Half of 2012-13 Barça B are already gone on loan/sold, especially the better players (Deulofeu, Rafinha, Araujo etc.). Last season you were already much weaker than the team of 2011-12. Comes January and Barça B will be battling relegation.

OK things have changed and I would like to express my opinion on how this season might actually be saved.

Tactics:
- pressing! If we can't press like we did before, switch to a deeper back line
- more balanced wings - I fear we could be raped on the left with both Alba and Neymar, but Brasil coped pretty well in the Confederations Cup with Marcelo and Neymar so maybe it's not so bad.
- switch to a 4-2-3-1 when in advantage by placing Song or Mascherano near Busquets and playing Fabregas behind Messi. Iniesta or Neymar on the left.

Players:
GK: New keeper (ter Stegen, why aren't we linked anymore???), Pinto ; sell Valdes and use the money for the new keeper - imagine how the fans will react if he starts making blunders, everyone will say that he isn't focused on Barca anymore etc.

RB: Alves, Montoya - it's OK
CB: New CB (Sakho), Pique, Puyol, Bartra, Mascherano
LB: Alba, Adriano

DM: Busquets, Song, Mascherano
CM: Xavi, Song, new CM (Herrera?)
AM: Iniesta, Fabregas, Sergi Roberto

LW: Neymar, Tello
CF: Messi, Fabregas, Sanchez
RW: Sachez, Pedro, Cuenca (if he stays)

To sum up:
sell - Valdes (10-15 M?)
buy - Sakho (20M?), ter Stegen (15 M), Herrera (15 M?)

I personally believe buying a CM is a priority now because we really need someone who can bring competition to Xavi and Iniesta. With the sale of Thiago and the reported money we had for a CB (30 M) we should be more than able to cover up these transfers, even if we keep Valdes.

Hawky wrote:OK things have changed and I would like to express my opinion on how this season might actually be saved.

Tactics:
- pressing! If we can't press like we did before, switch to a deeper back line
- more balanced wings - I fear we could be raped on the left with both Alba and Neymar, but Brasil coped pretty well in the Confederations Cup with Marcelo and Neymar so maybe it's not so bad.
- switch to a 4-2-3-1 when in advantage by placing Song or Mascherano near Busquets and playing Fabregas behind Messi. Iniesta or Neymar on the left.

Players:
GK: New keeper (ter Stegen, why aren't we linked anymore???), Pinto ; sell Valdes and use the money for the new keeper - imagine how the fans will react if he starts making blunders, everyone will say that he isn't focused on Barca anymore etc.

RB: Alves, Montoya - it's OK
CB: New CB (Sakho), Pique, Puyol, Bartra, Mascherano
LB: Alba, Adriano

DM: Busquets, Song, Mascherano
CM: Xavi, Song, new CM (Herrera?)
AM: Iniesta, Fabregas, Sergi Roberto

LW: Neymar, Tello
CF: Messi, Fabregas, Sanchez
RW: Sachez, Pedro, Cuenca (if he stays)

To sum up:
sell - Valdes (10-15 M?)
buy - Sakho (20M?), ter Stegen (15 M), Herrera (15 M?)

I personally believe buying a CM is a priority now because we really need someone who can bring competition to Xavi and Iniesta. With the sale of Thiago and the reported money we had for a CB (30 M) we should be more than able to cover up these transfers, even if we keep Valdes.

Speaking about "making blunders" and you want to Valdes with ter stegane... Really?
Valdes is staying, Rosell confirmed it.

- CB (not sure about Sakho)... Actually, I'm only sure about Thiago Silva (not gonna happen)
- CM? We should buy Oliver Torres (using part of the 25M we have from selling Thiago).

Looking forward to see Sergi Samper with 1st team, he'll probably available in 1st 3 games of preseason (including game vs Bayern)

agree with you on the remaining parts...