Re: Barça vs. Bayern

by BarrileteCosmico Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:27 pm

Jibers I'm not sure what argument you're making. Are you sure Guardiola got the pressing from Bielsa and not Cruyff? Because Cruyff's team allowed their opponents very little time on the ball and pressed like animals.

As soon as a Sevilla player gets the ball a Barca player is already pouncing at them.

by jibers Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:35 pm

BarcaKizz wrote:Whether it was there or not, the alternative is what you've spelt out. Learning how to sit and defend. The former, which Guardiola brought, fit the philosophy like a glove, the latter does not. Thats why I don't really see it as an alternative.

I don't know the extent of change you propose. Maybe I'd be OK with it, I'm just saying we can't abandon our ethics.

BTW one small innovation of the Cruyffism was changing scouting to smaller, technical players which used to be ignored. Now our youth is pretty much characterised by this. This limits us quite a bit in terms of playing a game like Bayern's for example. We can't...

Fitness is an interesting one. Definitely its a problem now (and I'd suggest hunger too). You're suggesting that the pressing over the years has accumulated fatigue. Could be. Maybe the answer then is a bigger squad and more rotation. But still, given a rest over the summer and a few fresh faces... I don't see fitness as an excuse based on the previous years of playing.

Under Rijkaard Barcelona dropped off quite a bit in a lot of games. Kizz the most important thing is the transitioning. Without good transitioning having 90% of the ball in a match is useless. I am not saying that the team should be able to defend both ways. Coach the team to be able to defend properly if they don't want to recover the ball because at the moment Barceona's defence is similar to that of Arsenal in reent seasons if you catch my drift.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Jibers I'm not sure what argument you're making. Are you sure Guardiola got the pressing from Bielsa and not Cruyff? Because Cruyff's team allowed their opponents very little time on the ball and pressed like animals.

As soon as a Sevilla player gets the ball a Barca player is already pouncing at them.

Watch the whole game. The pressing of space that Guardiola used is Bielsa. Most teams press, Juventus under Lippi pressed, United in 99 pressed, but the particular method Pep used was inspired by Bielsa. Saachi did something similar but not quite the same. Pressing is in most youth systems, especially in ENgland, and when Klinsann tried changing Germany he even used ENglands pressing game as an inspiration. I am talking particulary of the method used by Barcelona. There are different kinds. Anyways this is by the wayside as I said. If Barcelona don't want to press, like they have shown the last 2 seasons almost they need to get a coach to teach them how to defend space properly rather than attack it.

by FennecFox7 Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:25 pm

Jibers

#genius

by BarcaLearning Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:43 am

The Ostracised One wrote:
BarcaKizz wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:Apparently that scrub Martinez is now better than Busquets and Schweinsteiger is also better than Xavi.

@Ostracised One: No, calling for a new manager is too far. Even saying this 'era' BS is too far. These 'eras' are just things we make up in retrospect to neatly package history. Its not like Barca has been at the top and all of a sudden we're down. There have been bumps along the ride. Tweaking the system is all thats needed and we can peak again.

Barca have manufactured a philosophy which works and it will continue to work. Cruyff and Rexach didn't put together a system which took 15 years to build so that it would be abandoned and some coach like Mourinho brought in. Like I said, Barca needs to evolve and solve their problems, but most of the problems like I said are simply things which are part of our blueprint which aren't being performed (e.g.. pressing, faster service etc).

No Plan B, just go back to Plan A and improve it. Stop half-assing Plan A. If hunger is an issue. Fix it.

This is my problem. I have been watching Barcelona playe since 1987. Whay you there, I do not agree with. The 'system' that they used is Pep Guardiola's system. Abandon what? Tell me this did you play the same way under Rijkaard? I'm curious what do you think the difference in playing style between this team and Cruyff's dream team is?

The football that Barcelona played these last 5 seasons is most definately Guardiola's. Did BArcelona ever play like that befoe? Nope. Now you are telling me you cannot change? THat is what annoys me. A new manager will come in and change the way you play, it is inevitable. Barcelona are no different from every single team in histlry with respect to success. The emphaiss on making the ball do the work will change bt I still believe new Ideas are needed. This plan A and plan B polemic is just by the wayside. I knew immediatley Pep left that 'HIS' football, you know, the one that barcelona WERE NOT playing before HE CAME BACK will slwoy dissappear. It will now all depedn on how they handle changes. MEssi seems stubborn and needs to be pillow wrapped. The false 9 has been figured out. i mean BArcelona have ridden their luck massively. There is also intangibles like motivation, effort, thing of that nature that you can see.

People complaining about Barcelona's 'defending' really need to wake up. I'm sorry but the level that Barcelona reached in 2011 was not sustainable. THey pressed collectively in every game, they ran and ran, and look at the effects. I mean you can just tell by looking at them that they are all just knackered.

Even if Thiago Silva was in your defence you will still concede goals. BArcelona's defensive positioning ios set up for quick ball recovery and not conventional defending, so when the front doesn#t do anything, the back line is put under untold amounts of pressure. Pique is a better defender than when he first came, The difference is when he came Barcelona were workin thrice as hard. No team can use the same ideas and have sustsained success. So what philosphy are you talking about. Define it for me. I want you to define the philospphy that Barcelona used under Rijkaard and the one it used under Pep but how they shouldn't change it.

A tactical overhaul is needed and I think that this battering will wake Barcelona. As I said either the management changes or the players change massively. Xavi is too old too keep up his level. The intensity he played at was just so high. Running every game, clocking the most miles, just can't happen anymore. The way the team is set up at the moment it also depends too much on Messi' imput. Alaex pointed this out long ago as did my boy Dani. he keeps dropping deeper and deeper.

So if thats true then Pep's method doesnt work long term? I mean pressing as u say many teams have done it in the past, but it seems like since Barca have been so successful with it these few years, many teams ar elearning to use it as well, and seems a bit of a norm nowadays, just depends how well the teams does it, whether they have the players mentally prepare and being able to play with it when they win it. I have seen Bilbao many times in the past season or so, and they seem to over do it, or dont have the players to consistently carry it out successfully, so many times I see them press and run their socks off but when they have the ball, they dont have they energy to play good football or the quick transition like u said needed.

Real seem to be a good balance when they play us, they press for parts of a game and then stand back more and then do it again in periods.

If Pep or this method is successful but gets players too tired, then its flawed I think u can say, since its not long term viable, or u need a balance and dont over do it.

I want to ask, since u said u watched Barca for so long, whats the difference u think between the current side compared? Actually what were the philosophy and tactics during each period? I would love to know more since its more reading back since I only watched football like late 90s.

by BarcaLearning Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:51 am

BarcaKizz wrote:@ The Ostracised One:

OK I will spell it out for you.

Btw, I like your analysis and explanation of the defensive game. Excellent.

I'm not talking about first team tactics. When I said they manufactured a philosophy I wasn't talking about first team. I'm talking about La Masia and what they call the 'futbol base'. Basically under the presidency of Nunez, Cruyff proposed to setup a youth system modeled on Ajax's. This means all youth teams playing in the same system and feeding the first team. Obviously though, there is no control over the first team's game, and as we saw under some managers (Bobby Robson) the first team's game can be quite different and thus there is little use of youth.

The system took time but eventually paid off and Rijkaard began the refocus on drawing on youth (Iniesta, Messi, Bojan, Gio... etc). Now Guardiola was the first homegrown coach in a while and a direct disciple of Cruyff, so its no surprise he believed in the youth system they had set up.

Its been said a number of times in interviews with players and Guardiola. People are beginning to see this 'new style of play' from Barca, but the youth played it for years. Finally the first team caught up, and it works. Thats what I mean by years of work started by Cruyff and Rexach who pushed for focus on youth development and funneling money into it.

Why is this significant to your proposal of new system and manager? Barca now realise that the youth system is driving their success. If we change the Guardiola/Cruyff philosophy now we reject that. It becomes way less fruitful. The youth are trained in a specific way so that they can fit into a system like Guardiola's not Robson's.

The system that Guardiola implemented is not that old to the first team, but the philosophy has indeed been there for years.

Just read all other replies, has nothing to do with what I'm talking about really.

Kizz, same I want to ask what exactly was the style or tactics Robson and VG played during the late 90s and early 2000s? Difference compared with now? I didnt know much and only watched mainly highlight back then.

U said that in those days La Masia was there but the first team didnt utilise the players much and bought stars correct?

Its a bit worrying to learn that the La Masia now perhaps focuses too much on small technical players? I think in everything, in football, its good to have an ideal philosophy, but also u need to balance it with being able to counter oppositions, be pragmatic and efficient to win games and hence win trophies... it seems to me its all very good but a bit flawed? Cant be perfect but i just feel other clubs are catching up and perhaps learning from us and group it together with their other strengths, which is even more effective.

by eelir Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:14 am

The Ostracised One wrote:
eelir wrote:
BarcaKizz wrote:
It is Barca's philosophy now, people believe in it. Fans, players, staff etc. People won't be happy with a Mou, you have to understand that. Its easy to say as an outsider, but its not a coincidence that we are all defending the philosophy here.

This!! While RM a Spanish team can live with this, we can't!!!

and I undertsand that, but neither will United! So do Barcelona and United have the same philsophy. Dude as I said I have been watching Barcelona since 86. I think I know exactly what they want lol

I'd say we agree more or less. The thing is teams like United have been playing attacking attractive football, but IMO (i havent really followed them constantly so you can correct me if i am wrong) they change their style to suit the players they have, and wont mind being a counter attacking team if such team set up is made. However, at Barca they might not be happy for such a "big" change. This does not mean Barca wont play counters though!

by Mack10 Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:42 pm

I laugh so hard going thorugh this thread, I thought only Madrid fans are arrogant, but the way Barca fans completely wrote off Dortmund is unbelieveable.

by messixaviesta Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:59 pm

I am a Barca fan and I didn't write off Dortmund. I had doubts about them possibly being fazed by the occasion but I also clearly said that if they play to their true potential they are well capable of knocking out a Real Madrid team which is not as special as some have made it out to be.

by danyjr Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:26 pm

The Ostracised One wrote:People complaining about Barcelona's 'defending' really need to wake up. I'm sorry but the level that Barcelona reached in 2011 was not sustainable. THey pressed collectively in every game, they ran and ran, and look at the effects. I mean you can just tell by looking at them that they are all just knackered.

Sorry but this is pure bull. And there is no scientific evidence to prove your point. You're saying someone who ran really hard in 2011 is going to feel fatigued 2 years later still? Laughing

Not to mention that while it might look that Barcelona were playing with high intensity, they actually weren't draining themselves over the 90 minutes as a team keeping more possession uses periods in possession to recharge while the other team does the running. A very efficient way to play.

The problem isn't pressing every game. Even if there was a problem it could have been solved with player rotation. For whatever reason, some which are valid and some not, Barcelona managers prefer keeping small squads but playing the same 11 over and over again has its long term effects. Add this to the fact that half of Barcelona's team playing in Spain NT where they have played a lot of intense tournaments during the last 4-5 years, then yes fatigue may have a case.

I've said it before, like many others have, tactical problems and poor signings are things to look back at when assessing Barcelona's 'failure' but nothing beats lack of motivation. A team that has won it all is extremely hard to motivate and that is the undeniable truth. I think one must praise Barcelona for being a top dog for such a long period of time. Not many teams (if any) have done what they've done in the past couple of decades that I've been alive.

by messixaviesta Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:04 pm

I read a comment on Twitter today that Pep has supposedly said the difference between Bayern and Barca was motivation. No idea how much truth there is to it.

by danyjr Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 pm

All I can say is that someone who's actually played football even at amateur levels would know the importance of mind in football. Look at Mourinho, I think we've all begun to accept that as a tactician he's got a long list of managers ahead of him but mentally, the way he prepares his team, he's a boss at that. Unfortunately forums are generally filled with people who watch football from their TV's, some who want to mathematecise football as a purely tactical medium and spend most of their times playing FIFA more than actually kicking a football. This is not directed towards Ostracised One or anyone else, it is the general feeling I get when I read these forums.

I'd like to conclude with a great quote from the master, Guardiola: Fatigue does not exist. It is all in the mind.

I can't say I can disagree with it one bit.

by messixaviesta Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:38 pm

Not everyone has the capability to play football but that does not take away our right to love the game, try to learn about it and discuss about it. For the record I have hardly ever kicked a football in my entire life.

Anyway about your comment on Mourinho, if Madrid don't make it to the UCL final as now expected, Barca win the league as expected and he does leave Madrid this summer as rumoured, then this will be his worst stint at any club in his career. Now at first glance that sounds a crazy thing to say because he has won some important matches and a few trophies but considering his extraordinary standards of success he hasn't been able to achieve that much this time. He has never been a great offensive coach. However he makes a big difference in the defensive side of the game. Chelsea under him were very solid defensively while Inter 2009-10 were simply awesome. This is probably where it has most gone wrong for him at Madrid. In spite of brief flashes here and there he has just not been able to get the standard of the team's defense anywhere near what is expected of a Mourinho team.

by danyjr Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:49 pm

I agree with what you say but I think you missed my main argument completely Very Happy

by messixaviesta Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:37 pm

danyjr wrote:I agree with what you say but I think you missed my main argument completely

Did I? I completely agree that mind and motivation levels are a huge part of the game. My earlier comment actually meant that I am not sure if Pep has actually said what he is rumoured to have said about motivation being the main difference between both the teams. Maybe the present Barcelona are not as hungry as some teams who have been desperate to win the big trophies for years but we haven't descended to the level of Brazil 2006 either which is the most demotivated and complacent team I have seen to date.

by windkick Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:10 am

God, I just hope we don't get rail roaded again. This time at home. I hope we at least bow out with some class

by neuro11 Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:57 am

I doubt even we will loose at home. We might not proceed but we will win this one.

by neuro11 Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:00 am

messixaviesta wrote:I read a comment on Twitter today that Pep has supposedly said the difference between Bayern and Barca was motivation. No idea how much truth there is to it.

If he truly said it, does not that mean - Tito failed to motivate the team. I doubt Pep would say so and even if he said, i think he did a stupid thing.

by The Franchise Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:10 pm

neuro11 wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:I read a comment on Twitter today that Pep has supposedly said the difference between Bayern and Barca was motivation. No idea how much truth there is to it.

If he truly said it, does not that mean - Tito failed to motivate the team. I doubt Pep would say so and even if he said, i think he did a stupid thing.

Even if he did say that, it's a very small thing which can mean a lot, it's very open.

He could easily say all that means is Bayern have won no CL with this team and they are desperate for it because they need validation. Our team needs no such thing.

Again, if he even said it, it's wide open and can mean anything really.

by Valkyrja Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:52 pm

What do you think about that they maybe still think of Tito as an assistant manager, and they do not listen to him/respect him like they did with Pep ?

by The Franchise Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:15 pm

I don't believe it, hard to say without being there but you hear stories which make it sound like that isn't what is happening.

I think every time Barca (Madrid too I guess) people look for larger reasons and usually it involves the relationships in the team...it's possible sure, but I think sometimes we just lose because the other team played better today.

But indeed, is not easy going from assistant to head coach with the same group...I am sure he has had to change how he communicates compared to last few seasons.

by eelir Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:31 am

I do not believe that. Tito was benching Messi much more then Pep. He has balls and i am sure he made the right impressions since day one.

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