Barça vs. Bayern

I didn't think I was going to get over the loss for a good week or so but turns out watching Madrid get dominated helped a lot.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL AT MADRID HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I mean at least Bayern are comfortably the best team in the world. Not that that should excuse what was an embarrassing and humiliating match, but damn. 4-1 to Dortmund

I didn't get to see the game though

@Ostracised One: No, calling for a new manager is too far. Even saying this 'era' BS is too far. These 'eras' are just things we make up in retrospect to neatly package history. Its not like Barca has been at the top and all of a sudden we're down. There have been bumps along the ride. Tweaking the system is all thats needed and we can peak again.

Barca have manufactured a philosophy which works and it will continue to work. Cruyff and Rexach didn't put together a system which took 15 years to build so that it would be abandoned and some coach like Mourinho brought in. Like I said, Barca needs to evolve and solve their problems, but most of the problems like I said are simply things which are part of our blueprint which aren't being performed (e.g.. pressing, faster service etc).

No Plan B, just go back to Plan A and improve it. Stop half-assing Plan A. If hunger is an issue. Fix it.

Fantastic words. Completely agree.

Bayern was as extraordinary as we were in the manita against RM. Perfect tactics and execution by fit, fresh players. Impossible to argue with. A team in the condition that ours was in, coming up against Bayern in the condition that IT was in, was always going to get its ass whipped. It’s why I said this team needed to play two more great matches to win the CL. One needed to be yesterday. It was far from great. But couple that with the way that Bayern played, and it was inevitable.

People can blame whoever they like, because often in a catastrophic failure it is easy to focus on a single person, be they a coach or player. But that blame is misguided and incorrect, in my view. The team didn’t have it. TEAM. And Bayern did. Boy, did they.

Robben tracking back and defending. Those five words alone show how much, how hungry that club was. This was their moment, and they seized it. We had the chance, and we didn’t.

Vilanova. What could Vilanova have done? Let’s look at the options:

–Thiago. No. What could he have done that Xavi or Iniesta weren’t?
–Villa. Again, he would have been standing in the box or on the shoulder of the defense. But the way Bayern were playing the passing lanes, the ball would never have reached him.
–Song. Double pivot with Busquets? Okay, so who comes off in his place? That would have been playing not to concede, rather than to score. We just don’t do that.
–Tello. Playing canasta with JDS.

Sometimes, there is just no answer. Yesterday was one of those times.

billy_gr wrote:I know... I just don't want to even consider the possibility of Mou lifting it.
BVB of course is out of the picture

Just drop it,everyone knows we would have done much better than Madrid if we had faced Dortmund instead and everyone knows they would have done much better than us if they played Bayern.

No I don't really agree with that. The intricate dynamics of those ties could have been different but overall it just seems to me that at this point in time Bayern and Dortmund are better teams than Barca and Madrid and if the former two go to the final as is likely the UCL will have one of the most deserving finals ever in its history.

BarcaKizz wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:Apparently that scrub Martinez is now better than Busquets and Schweinsteiger is also better than Xavi.

@Ostracised One: No, calling for a new manager is too far. Even saying this 'era' BS is too far. These 'eras' are just things we make up in retrospect to neatly package history. Its not like Barca has been at the top and all of a sudden we're down. There have been bumps along the ride. Tweaking the system is all thats needed and we can peak again.

Barca have manufactured a philosophy which works and it will continue to work. Cruyff and Rexach didn't put together a system which took 15 years to build so that it would be abandoned and some coach like Mourinho brought in. Like I said, Barca needs to evolve and solve their problems, but most of the problems like I said are simply things which are part of our blueprint which aren't being performed (e.g.. pressing, faster service etc).

No Plan B, just go back to Plan A and improve it. Stop half-assing Plan A. If hunger is an issue. Fix it.

This is my problem. I have been watching Barcelona playe since 1987. Whay you there, I do not agree with. The 'system' that they used is Pep Guardiola's system. Abandon what? Tell me this did you play the same way under Rijkaard? I'm curious what do you think the difference in playing style between this team and Cruyff's dream team is?

The football that Barcelona played these last 5 seasons is most definately Guardiola's. Did BArcelona ever play like that befoe? Nope. Now you are telling me you cannot change? THat is what annoys me. A new manager will come in and change the way you play, it is inevitable. Barcelona are no different from every single team in histlry with respect to success. The emphaiss on making the ball do the work will change bt I still believe new Ideas are needed. This plan A and plan B polemic is just by the wayside. I knew immediatley Pep left that 'HIS' football, you know, the one that barcelona WERE NOT playing before HE CAME BACK will slwoy dissappear. It will now all depedn on how they handle changes. MEssi seems stubborn and needs to be pillow wrapped. The false 9 has been figured out. i mean BArcelona have ridden their luck massively. There is also intangibles like motivation, effort, thing of that nature that you can see.

People complaining about Barcelona's 'defending' really need to wake up. I'm sorry but the level that Barcelona reached in 2011 was not sustainable. THey pressed collectively in every game, they ran and ran, and look at the effects. I mean you can just tell by looking at them that they are all just knackered.

Even if Thiago Silva was in your defence you will still concede goals. BArcelona's defensive positioning ios set up for quick ball recovery and not conventional defending, so when the front doesn#t do anything, the back line is put under untold amounts of pressure. Pique is a better defender than when he first came, The difference is when he came Barcelona were workin thrice as hard. No team can use the same ideas and have sustsained success. So what philosphy are you talking about. Define it for me. I want you to define the philospphy that Barcelona used under Rijkaard and the one it used under Pep but how they shouldn't change it.

A tactical overhaul is needed and I think that this battering will wake Barcelona. As I said either the management changes or the players change massively. Xavi is too old too keep up his level. The intensity he played at was just so high. Running every game, clocking the most miles, just can't happen anymore. The way the team is set up at the moment it also depends too much on Messi' imput. Alaex pointed this out long ago as did my boy Dani. he keeps dropping deeper and deeper.

There is one philosophy i believe - play attractive attacking football with as much ball as possible. There are several ways you can do that, there are many things you can tweak within these criteria. So I agree with Ostricised that there should be some changes and the team was not the same under Rikard, but you could see those criteria i mentioned in both of them.

eelir wrote:There is one philosophy i believe - play attractive attacking football with as much ball as possible. There are several ways you can do that, there are many things you can tweak within these criteria. So I agree with Ostricised that there should be some changes and the team was not the same under Rikard, but you could see those criteria i mentioned in both of them.

Isn'tthat what most teams try and do. Does that mean Arsenal, United and Barcelona have the same identity? The philosophy thing is too overstated. When a new manager comes, the style will change inevitably. There is nothing anyone can do about it. I'm just glad I can tell my grand kids that UNited played the best team in my lifetime and din't concede 5-0 like some other clubs

Yes of course most teams try that, we are just more stubborn on that request. Lets say Arsenal, when they played us last time, their fans were more or less happy to see them not string more than 4-5 passes if they managed to win. While this will be really disappointing for most of true Barca fans.

In contrast, take a look at the Bayern game. Now don't take what I am about to say out of context as I do believe the result is just. Three of their goals were not actually legal. Although there was one clear penalty in their favor and another questionable one with Alexis, still if the penalties were converted and the goals did not stand the result would have been 3:0 at best, and in another reality where refs are 100% accurate it should have been 2(1):0 depending if the penalty is converted. Now i come to the point. As w expect good attacking football from our team, most of fans do not bitch about it, because we did not deserve those calls to go our way. Some other teams fans would be all over crying about that like i have seen them do even when their team could not muster a shot on goal. But this is no acceptable for Barca.

Cotes wrote:

billy_gr wrote:I know... I just don't want to even consider the possibility of Mou lifting it.
BVB of course is out of the picture

eelir wrote:Yes of course most teams try that, we are just more stubborn on that request. Lets say Arsenal, when they played us last time, their fans were more or less happy to see them not string more than 4-5 passes if they managed to win. While this will be really disappointing for most of true Barca fans.

In contrast, take a look at the Bayern game. Now don't take what I am about to say out of context as I do believe the result is just. Three of their goals were not actually legal. Although there was one clear penalty in their favor and another questionable one with Alexis, still if the penalties were converted and the goals did not stand the result would have been 3:0 at best, and in another reality where refs are 100% accurate it should have been 2(1):0 depending if the penalty is converted. Now i come to the point. As w expect good attacking football from our team, most of fans do not bitch about it, because we did not deserve those calls to go our way. Some other teams fans would be all over crying about that like i have seen them do even when their team could not muster a shot on goal. But this is no acceptable for Barca.

Yes because Barcelona in 2011 were clearly superior. The same Barcelona fans that used to boo Cruyff and his team when they played the ball back to the GK

That is not just Barcelona it is Spain as a whole. So you have yet to define this philosophy. My point is this is all words. I understand what you mean. There is this idealism that has been built up into some kind of myth, but in reality, tactically and the way it is executed on the pitch, Barcelona have played different styles under different coaches and will continue to do so.

But can you say that Barca has always tried to keep possession, especially/ideally in final third they always preferred attacking then defending (yes this is true for most teams in Spain), play a fluid game with no strict positioning? If you keep it long enough it becomes philosophy, how you apply tactically it is a different from coach to coach and even Pep himself changed the way we played every season, not speaking about totally different coach.

EDIT. You can obviously be an attacking team without possession. Take Bayern vs Barca. Bayern attacked the shit out of us while we had the ball.

@ The Ostracised One:

OK I will spell it out for you.

Btw, I like your analysis and explanation of the defensive game. Excellent.

I'm not talking about first team tactics. When I said they manufactured a philosophy I wasn't talking about first team. I'm talking about La Masia and what they call the 'futbol base'. Basically under the presidency of Nunez, Cruyff proposed to setup a youth system modeled on Ajax's. This means all youth teams playing in the same system and feeding the first team. Obviously though, there is no control over the first team's game, and as we saw under some managers (Bobby Robson) the first team's game can be quite different and thus there is little use of youth.

The system took time but eventually paid off and Rijkaard began the refocus on drawing on youth (Iniesta, Messi, Bojan, Gio... etc). Now Guardiola was the first homegrown coach in a while and a direct disciple of Cruyff, so its no surprise he believed in the youth system they had set up.

Its been said a number of times in interviews with players and Guardiola. People are beginning to see this 'new style of play' from Barca, but the youth played it for years. Finally the first team caught up, and it works. Thats what I mean by years of work started by Cruyff and Rexach who pushed for focus on youth development and funneling money into it.

Why is this significant to your proposal of new system and manager? Barca now realise that the youth system is driving their success. If we change the Guardiola/Cruyff philosophy now we reject that. It becomes way less fruitful. The youth are trained in a specific way so that they can fit into a system like Guardiola's not Robson's.

The system that Guardiola implemented is not that old to the first team, but the philosophy has indeed been there for years.


Just read all other replies, has nothing to do with what I'm talking about really.

eelir wrote:But can you say that Barca has always tried to keep possession, especially/ideally in final third they always preferred attacking then defending (yes this is true for most teams in Spain), play a fluid game with no strict positioning? If you keep it long enough it becomes philosophy, how you apply tactically it is a different from coach to coach and even Pep himself changed the way we played every season, not speaking about totally different coach.

EDIT. You can obviously be an attacking team without possession. Take Bayern vs Barca. Bayern attacked the shit out of us while we had the ball.

without possession? Did Barcelona score 4 own goals? Possession is when you have the ball, which Bayern had, effeciency is how productive you are within a given time ergo Bayern were more effecient with the possession they had. Possession isn't a thin in itself. Obviosuly Barcelona had more because they build from the back and kept passing back all the time. Bayern didn't even have to press them regularly. Possession means nothing and has become some sort of weirf fetish in football since 2010.

Cruyff and Guardiola are so digfferent as coahces, in fact Guardiola is closer to van Gaal than he has ever been to Cruyff in terms of application. On what I highlighted, how many teams have rigid positioning? most teams are interchaning and what you described is what Sir Alex has done over the years. So what is this philosphy you speak of? As I said it is more of a symbolic term than what actually happens on the pitch. Symbolism is important but when it starts obssessively affecting ateam it becomes a problem.

BarcaKizz wrote:@ The Ostracised One:

OK I will spell it out for you.

Btw, I like your analysis and explanation of the defensive game. Excellent.

I'm not talking about first team tactics. When I said they manufactured a philosophy I wasn't talking about first team. I'm talking about La Masia and what they call the 'futbol base'. Basically under the presidency of Nunez, Cruyff proposed to setup a youth system modeled on Ajax's. This means all youth teams playing in the same system and feeding the first team. Obviously though, there is no control over the first team's game, and as we saw under some managers (Bobby Robson) the first team's game can be quite different and thus there is little use of youth.

The system took time but eventually paid off and Rijkaard began the refocus on drawing on youth (Iniesta, Messi, Bojan, Gio... etc). Now Guardiola was the first homegrown coach in a while and a direct disciple of Cruyff, so its no surprise he believed in the youth system they had set up.

Its been said a number of times in interviews with players and Guardiola. People are beginning to see this 'new style of play' from Barca, but the youth played it for years. Finally the first team caught up, and it works. Thats what I mean by years of work started by Cruyff and Rexach who pushed for focus on youth development and funneling money into it.

Why is this significant to your proposal of new system and manager? Barca now realise that the youth system is driving their success. If we change the Guardiola/Cruyff philosophy now we reject that. It becomes way less fruitful. The youth are trained in a specific way so that they can fit into a system like Guardiola's not Robson's.

The system that Guardiola implemented is not that old to the first team, but the philosophy has indeed been there for years.


Just read all other replies, has nothing to do with what I'm talking about really.

lol I know exavtky what football Base is and what Cruyff did. I',not talking about the youth teams, I'm talking about the tactical play. Only now since Pepcame has the club realligned into a single structured philsophy. The youth teams never played the way BArcelona did under 2011 (obviously they couldnt lol, grown men cant lol). What pep did in particular was change the positioning and the way the team received the ball. The pressing in particular was not that present in the youth team. So while I understand the philosophy is to bring players in from la Masia, I am talking aout tactics here and not off the fields. Of course new coaches will come in and use the youth system, Barcelona can't afford to go on stupid spending sprees like Manchester Shitty.

I am talking about a coach coming in and imprinting his idea on the pitch. Look at Bayern for example. They are so tactically versatile they make Barcelona looked one dimensional. There is no such thing as plan A or plan B to me. Guardiola is gone and I knew straight off that the team will eventually shift away from the principles he introduced. He saw that as well. First thing isfirst if they are not going to press (which they don't anymore) then they should get a defensive coach to teach them what to do when they don't have the ball, similar to what Bayern do imo. Retreat back instead of leaving the back line exposed to God knows what.

o and thanks for that, I'm just tired of hearing the same ol Barcelona have shit defenders drivel. Even Baresi would struggle the way the team play in their defensive phase.

The Ostracised One wrote:

eelir wrote:But can you say that Barca has always tried to keep possession, especially/ideally in final third they always preferred attacking then defending (yes this is true for most teams in Spain), play a fluid game with no strict positioning? If you keep it long enough it becomes philosophy, how you apply tactically it is a different from coach to coach and even Pep himself changed the way we played every season, not speaking about totally different coach.

EDIT. You can obviously be an attacking team without possession. Take Bayern vs Barca. Bayern attacked the shit out of us while we had the ball.

without possession? Did Barcelona score 4 own goals? Possession is when you have the ball, which Bayern had, effeciency is how productive you are within a given time ergo Bayern were more effecient with the possession they had. Possession isn't a thin in itself. Obviosuly Barcelona had more because they build from the back and kept passing back all the time. Bayern didn't even have to press them regularly. Possession means nothing and has become some sort of weirf fetish in football since 2010.

Cruyff and Guardiola are so digfferent as coahces, in fact Guardiola is closer to van Gaal than he has ever been to Cruyff in terms of application. On what I highlighted, how many teams have rigid positioning? most teams are interchaning and what you described is what Sir Alex has done over the years. So what is this philosphy you speak of? As I said it is more of a symbolic term than what actually happens on the pitch. Symbolism is important but when it starts obssessively affecting ateam it becomes a problem.

Dude if you read my previous posts you'll get the answer. I am not saying others cant do what we do or other did not do. If you keep some criteria for as long as we stubbornly have, it becomes a philosophy. Other are not so focused on keeping these very broad criteria. And Kizz made a better explanation that relates to Masia.

It doesn't surprise me that you know it. But it is related.

It is Barca's philosophy now, people believe in it. Fans, players, staff etc. People won't be happy with a Mou, you have to understand that. Its easy to say as an outsider, but its not a coincidence that we are all defending the philosophy here.

I'm just saying its been there for longer than Guardiola, even if he was the first to really bring it to life with the first team.

It does work too. Bring a defensive coach in? Why not just bring pressing back instead and stick with the philosophy?

I agree with you there should be changes, just not to the philosophy and ultimately not the manager or key players. The changes just need to be subtle.

Maybe you don't believe that our system can beat Bayern, but I do and so do millions of other cules. Thats really what matters.

BarcaKizz wrote:
It is Barca's philosophy now, people believe in it. Fans, players, staff etc. People won't be happy with a Mou, you have to understand that. Its easy to say as an outsider, but its not a coincidence that we are all defending the philosophy here.

This!! While RM a Spanish team can live with this, we can't!!!

Also we should really differentiate between 'philosophy' and systems/tactics here, because they are different. I think you are talking tactics, I'm talking philosophy.

Philosophy informs the tactics and system which managers decide upon.

Philosophy is what has motived fans to bring out white hankies in disapproval of tactics, even when they were winning Barca games.

The same would happen if a manager came in and tried to radically alter the system now. Except more so, because Guardiola pretty much increased belief in that philosophy threefold.

Philosophy changes, sure, but its organic. You don't force it.

BarcaKizz wrote:It doesn't surprise me that you know it. But it is related.

It is Barca's philosophy now, people believe in it. Fans, players, staff etc. People won't be happy with a Mou, you have to understand that. Its easy to say as an outsider, but its not a coincidence that we are all defending the philosophy here.

I'm just saying its been there for longer than Guardiola, even if he was the first to really bring it to life with the first team.

It does work too. Bring a defensive coach in? Why not just bring pressing back instead and stick with the philosophy?

I agree with you there should be changes, just not to the philosophy and ultimately not the manager or key players. The changes just need to be subtle.

Maybe you don't believe that our system can beat Bayern, but I do and so do millions of other cules. Thats really what matters.

Pressing and ball recovery was not something that was in Barcelona youths system Kizz. In fact the method that guardiola got was from Bielsa's coaching methods. The way and the space that he used to press was Bielsa's not anything under Barcelona.When Barcelona started being successful everyone started eulogizing Barcelona. I know what you mean by La Masia and I undertsand what you mean about Mourinho, again that is the same with Manchester United, the fans are furious when we don't attack as am I. Even FErgie said that attacking football is part of United's DNA. Again the way BArcelona retain the ball was never done in La Masia like this. The emphasis on head up and being abl;e to receive the ball but the application that Pep introduced was never seen anywhere before and is new. A manager coming in and changing that is fine. It wasn't there before Pep and if it goes awa

Barcelona woill not lose their essence. So it hasn't been there at all. now if we are talking about transitions and the swift ball movement, thenyes, that has always been there, but the application with ball retention and ball recovery was never really taught in La masia and was only brought to Barcelona when Guardiola took over the B team. Also another thing Kizz is I feel the fitness of the team is shocking atm. Accumulated fatigue is a factor but I feel that another main revolution was the improved fitness of the team. Bayern looked sharper and fitter. Fitness is key as anyone that has played football will know fitness affects decision making. I mean look at how many times iniesta has been giving the ball away recently.

eelir wrote:

The Ostracised One wrote:

eelir wrote:But can you say that Barca has always tried to keep possession, especially/ideally in final third they always preferred attacking then defending (yes this is true for most teams in Spain), play a fluid game with no strict positioning? If you keep it long enough it becomes philosophy, how you apply tactically it is a different from coach to coach and even Pep himself changed the way we played every season, not speaking about totally different coach.

EDIT. You can obviously be an attacking team without possession. Take Bayern vs Barca. Bayern attacked the shit out of us while we had the ball.

without possession? Did Barcelona score 4 own goals? Possession is when you have the ball, which Bayern had, effeciency is how productive you are within a given time ergo Bayern were more effecient with the possession they had. Possession isn't a thin in itself. Obviosuly Barcelona had more because they build from the back and kept passing back all the time. Bayern didn't even have to press them regularly. Possession means nothing and has become some sort of weirf fetish in football since 2010.

Cruyff and Guardiola are so digfferent as coahces, in fact Guardiola is closer to van Gaal than he has ever been to Cruyff in terms of application. On what I highlighted, how many teams have rigid positioning? most teams are interchaning and what you described is what Sir Alex has done over the years. So what is this philosphy you speak of? As I said it is more of a symbolic term than what actually happens on the pitch. Symbolism is important but when it starts obssessively affecting ateam it becomes a problem.

Dude if you read my previous posts you'll get the answer. I am not saying others cant do what we do or other did not do. If you keep some criteria for as long as we stubbornly have, it becomes a philosophy. Other are not so focused on keeping these very broad criteria. And Kizz made a better explanation that relates to Masia.

what you said did not make sense. Play possession? Play without the ball? No team can win without the ball. How can you attack without having the ball? Think about that for a minute dude...

BarcaKizz wrote:Also we should really differentiate between 'philosophy' and systems/tactics here, because they are different. I think you are talking tactics, I'm talking philosophy.

Philosophy informs the tactics and system which managers decide upon.

Philosophy is what has motived fans to bring out white hankies in disapproval of tactics, even when they were winning Barca games.

The same would happen if a manager came in and tried to radically alter the system now. Except more so, because Guardiola pretty much increased belief in that philosophy threefold.

Philosophy changes, sure, but its organic. You don't force it.

I'm talking about tactics here mostly. The philosophy from Barcelona is attacking football first and foremost. That is the most iomportant thing. La Masia mostly taught players about awareness and transitioning. I look at Dortmund and the way they transitioned as similar to what Barcelona did in 2011. Add ball recovery and retention and that is what Pep brought in. Now you can abandon that, it is not ingrained in the club but was a tcatical decision because as Pep said, Barcelona are not great at conventional defending. A new coach coming and changing that is okay as long as the transitioning is there and emphasis on attaking is there the fans would not care. Of course Mourniho will not fit there. Hell I hope he never comes to United.

eelir wrote:

BarcaKizz wrote:
It is Barca's philosophy now, people believe in it. Fans, players, staff etc. People won't be happy with a Mou, you have to understand that. Its easy to say as an outsider, but its not a coincidence that we are all defending the philosophy here.

This!! While RM a Spanish team can live with this, we can't!!!

and I undertsand that, but neither will United! So do Barcelona and United have the same philsophy. Dude as I said I have been watching Barcelona since 86. I think I know exactly what they want lol

Mourinho is a coach that can't teach his teams to take the initiative. A coach like Klopp could come in and coach Barcelona. His tactical imrpint follows Barcelona mantra. It is no surprise though. Mourinho is a reactive coach. You managed to avoid him, pray that we do as well.

Whether it was there or not, the alternative is what you've spelt out. Learning how to sit and defend. The former, which Guardiola brought, fit the philosophy like a glove, the latter does not. Thats why I don't really see it as an alternative.

I don't know the extent of change you propose. Maybe I'd be OK with it, I'm just saying we can't abandon our ethics.

BTW one small innovation of the Cruyffism was changing scouting to smaller, technical players which used to be ignored. Now our youth is pretty much characterised by this. This limits us quite a bit in terms of playing a game like Bayern's for example. We can't...

Fitness is an interesting one. Definitely its a problem now (and I'd suggest hunger too). You're suggesting that the pressing over the years has accumulated fatigue. Could be. Maybe the answer then is a bigger squad and more rotation. But still, given a rest over the summer and a few fresh faces... I don't see fitness as an excuse based on the previous years of playing.

Jibers I'm not sure what argument you're making. Are you sure Guardiola got the pressing from Bielsa and not Cruyff? Because Cruyff's team allowed their opponents very little time on the ball and pressed like animals.



As soon as a Sevilla player gets the ball a Barca player is already pouncing at them.