Does embarrassing even begin to cover it?

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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:39 am

The thing about Robson, is that his views on coaching are different to wengers. Wenger has a philosophy of how we play and he does not change it even when we are struggling, Robson is much more pragmatic, much more willing to change things. For example, when we played against Barcelona we were getting destroyed trying to play out from the back, but we kept trying anyway and kept losing the ball in dangerous areas, Robson spent the entire 45 minutes basically calling for us to play the ball behind Barcelona instead (basically become direct), cause let's face it it might not have been pretty but it would have been more effective than losing the ball outside our own penalty area with stupid backheels ( for example) Against Bradford they shut down the central areas but we still tried to constantly pick a way through instead of varying our play. Anyway, the point is Robson perceives wengers refusal to adapt our approach to games as a lack of understanding, maybe that is wrong but I'm sure that's his reasoning.
The Franchise wrote:And can I add, he talks about Arsenal having "good players" who "would do better with a better coach".

Way to ignore the fact that those players wouldnt be as good as they are without Wenger in the first place.

This is where I feel sorry for Wenger, the players he genuinely improved left him as soon as money/hometowns called

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Post by Raptorgunner Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:46 am

The problem with Wenger is that he keeps players out of position.

Gervinho is useless.
Ramsey is useless.
Podolski is just not there.
Giroud is lost.
Arteta scared to make forward pass, all he does is pass it to Mert and Vermaelen.
Wenger keeps giving Gervinho striker role but never gives the chances to walcott.
Should have never sold Song.


Arshavin is best Winger he never plays.
Walcott somehow is injured every other week.

"The only possible conclusion is that Wenger has lost the instinct that brought a crop of influential players to Arsenal during his early years … Left to his own devices, the visionary has run out of vision" Richard Williams


Last edited by Raptorgunner on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by The Verminator Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:48 am

yea I agree with what you're saying Franchise. More physicality is needed, and maybe we could play with weaker players as we are now, in La Liga, but in EPL i think it's a telling problem that we don't have a real DM who is strong enough. Although with rumours coming up that Bould is furious at his lack of input in trainings, i doubt we will see a more compact defense that you speak of i'm afraid.
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Post by The Franchise Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:50 am

I think we call agree Wenger is stubborn and believes there is a way to play the game. I happen to agree with him. However, that doesnt mean you cant make adjustments within the same philosophy.

I think thats where this guys point and Wengers view can meet in the middle.

Playing pragmatic hoof ball wont get you anywhere long term, Wenger knows this. His way of playing isnt wrong, its just not working because he doesnt have the personal for it. Thats why he must make adjustments. Thats fine, criticise him for not making adjustments.

But when you say he doesnt understand football and stuff like that are out of line. Wenger has long since proven himself as a coach.
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Post by The Franchise Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:51 am

The Verminator wrote:yea I agree with what you're saying Franchise. More physicality is needed, and maybe we could play with weaker players as we are now, in La Liga, but in EPL i think it's a telling problem that we don't have a real DM who is strong enough. Although with rumours coming up that Bould is furious at his lack of input in trainings, i doubt we will see a more compact defense that you speak of i'm afraid.

Yeah probably not, Wenger doesnt believe in it and I understand him. But Wenger has had one big problem his entire career for how much I love him, he is too trusting of his players to a fault. He believes in them just a little too much.
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Post by The Verminator Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:52 am

Raptorgunner wrote:The problem with Wenger is that he keeps players out of position.

Gervinho is useless.
Ramsey is useless.
Podolski is just not there.
Giroud is lost.
Arteta scared to make forward pass, all he does is pass it to Mert and Vermaelen.
Wenger keeps giving Gervinho striker role but never gives the chances to walcott.
Should have never sold Song.


Arshavin is best Winger he never plays.
Walcott somehow is injured every other week.

I feel like we've got a top class player who doesn't get given an opportunity to show his class coz he plays in the wrong position (Podo). He needs to play in the centre i reckon, but then that means, that we have to have two strikers to accomodate Giroud too, or stay same formation, but play an out of form winger in place of Podo (Shava, Gerv, Ramsey(lol), Rosicky(i can see AW doing this again).

Or we can play Santi out wide but i doubt that's happening
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Post by The Franchise Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:52 am

Raptorgunner wrote:The problem with Wenger is that he keeps players out of position.

Gervinho is useless.
Ramsey is useless.
Podolski is just not there.
Giroud is lost.
Arteta scared to make forward pass, all he does is pass it to Mert and Vermaelen.
Wenger keeps giving Gervinho striker role but never gives the chances to walcott.
Should have never sold Song.


Arshavin is best Winger he never plays.
Walcott somehow is injured every other week.


Minus Gervinho, I think all these guys can play...so there must be a bigger reason than they just suck.

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Post by The Verminator Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:55 am

The Franchise wrote:
The Verminator wrote:yea I agree with what you're saying Franchise. More physicality is needed, and maybe we could play with weaker players as we are now, in La Liga, but in EPL i think it's a telling problem that we don't have a real DM who is strong enough. Although with rumours coming up that Bould is furious at his lack of input in trainings, i doubt we will see a more compact defense that you speak of i'm afraid.

Yeah probably not, Wenger doesnt believe in it and I understand him. But Wenger has had one big problem his entire career for how much I love him, he is too trusting of his players to a fault. He believes in them just a little too much.
Yea i know what you mean. And look, he gets it right sometimes, look at Song for example. But constantly playing Ramsey and Gervinho, hoping for them to do good one day, is seriously hurting the team. I can understand he doesn't want to hurt their confidence but it's gone on for too long, they contribute very little to the team.

Although maybe it's not just trying to show faith in his players, maybe he wants to justify spending 10m on Gervais so he keeps playing him. After all, he is stubborn.
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:01 am

if we bought forwards with more finesse that would itself lead to more possession. Our midfield is good at keeping the ball but they have no one to distribute it to. Gervinhos ball retention is horrid, so is girouds, podolski offers nothing outside the final stage of attack, Walcott is much better at running behind defences than playing with his back to goal. We haven't got a single player to pass the ball forward to that would inspire confidence, the best at it is Chamberlain....
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Post by El Gunner Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:01 am

Amar wrote:Everybody looking at the ball except Gervinho rofl

Does embarrassing even begin to cover it?  - Page 4 Article-2246615-16779708000005DC-348_634x383
lol this is fecking epic!
:facepalm:
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Post by The Franchise Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:02 am

Thats exactly what it is.

On one had, you have to give credit to Wenger because players consistently improve immensely under him.

But on the other, sometimes you wait a long time and suffer because you have to wait.

Gervinho must have something which Wenger believes he can get out of him. I think if he makes a mistake, he is rutheless with getting rid of them, its just he is very trusting and it takes alot for him to get to that point. For example, once he realised Jeffers sucked and wasnt ever going to be good he was out. Same with some others.

The biggest thing that has hurt, is you wait 4 years or something for RVP to not be injury prone, then once he is fixed, he jumps ship.

The reason is he isnt young anymore and doesnt want to wait for everyone else to reach his level. And it comes back to the point, I dont know what resources Wenger has..perhaps if he had more he would of got him more help sooner, on the other hand maybe he wouldnt. I dont really know.
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Post by Raptorgunner Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:14 am

He coaching structure is complicated, with assistant manager Steve Bould apparently marginalised despite his promotion this season.

At 63, Wenger remains convinced he can improve the players, taking training every day and planning every move in meticulous detail.

Bould, a former Arsenal defender, deserved his chance after 11 years with the academy and reserves but he is largely ignored by Wenger. The pair are understood to have limited communication and the distance between them is so big that, when the boss missed training the day before Arsenal were beaten 2-0 at home by Swansea, fitness coach Tony Colbert took the session.

Bould’s appointment, on £1.5m a year, was heavily influenced by the Arsenal board following the retirement of Wenger’s trusted assistant Pat Rice at the end of last season.

Rice is still a club scout but others are frustrated by Wenger’s failure to take notice of the detailed reports they provide on players. Gervinho, who won the French league and cup double before he joined from Lille in 2011, was recommended by chief scout Steve Rowley after coming to the attention of French talent spotter Gilles Grimandi.

He scored 28 goals in 67 league games for Lille but the Ivory Coast forward has rarely threatened to make a major impact at Arsenal.

Left back Andre Santos, a surprise signing from Fenerbahce in 2011, is another mystery to the scouts.

Other coaches, like Bould, are bypassed. Neil Banfield, promoted to first-team coach after years at the academy, is paid a £1m salary but has little input in first-team affairs.

Former coaches are made to sign confidentiality agreements not to talk about Wenger’s methods.

The club used to outsource fitness checks to a specialist company at a cost of £750,000 but the Frenchman disagreed with results after he was warned players were being overworked.

Wenger was ahead of his time with sports science, diet and training methods when he arrived from Nagoya Grampus Eight in 1996. More than a decade later there is a growing feeling the rest of the Premier League have left him behind.

The manager is proud of his development strategy but one could argue that, in his 16 years, Ashley Cole and Wilshere are the only bona fide graduates from the fabled Hale End academy who have become first team regulars.

He points to the careers of Steven Sidwell, James Harper, David Bentley, Fabrice Muamba, Anthony Stokes and the Hoyte brothers as evidence of his success with young players. Others at the club believe there is little point producing players to play for other clubs.
It is an open secret at Arsenal Wenger and youth development coach Liam Brady rarely speak.
At the London Colney training centre, which was ahead of its time when built 12 years ago, there has been a noticeable shift in Wenger’s demeanour.

During the glory years at the turn of the millennium, for example, first-team players would regularly tease Kanu about the mystery surrounding his actual birthdate.

Wenger, who signed the Nigeria striker from Inter Milan in 1999, would laugh along, telling him: ‘Kanu, you know you are supposed to add a year, not subtract one.’

That was when Wenger could still rely on the famous back four as they charged towards the Premier League and FA Cup double in 2002.

Today he has tightened up, wrapping himself in his Arsenal jacket and feeling the pressure after seven years without a trophy.

Some believe the decline began with William Gallas’s infamous sitdown protest after they drew 2-2 against Birmingham but they beat AC Milan in the Champions League with goals from Cesc Fabregas and Emmanuel Adebayor in the San Siro a few days later.

Others trace the slide back to Wenger’s decision to break up the team beaten by Barcelona in the 2006 Champions League final.

Wenger always insists he is judged at the end of the season. Sadly, the verdict is already in.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2247331/Has-Arsene-Wenger-reached-end-line-Arsenal--Neil-Ashton.html#ixzz2EtzEDE51
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Post by The Franchise Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:30 am

I thought he wasnt running training according to this guy? Clearly someone doesnt have the right info.

On Gervinho, how is he not using the scouts if "he was recommended by chief scout Steve Rowley after coming to the attention of French talent spotter Gilles Grimandi."

Santos was simply a cheap "panic buy" intented to be a back up leftback in case of injury. That was a move that screamed of, I desperately need a guy and have no money.

The confidentiality agreements not to talk about Wenger’s methods sounds normal. Why would the club want the possiblity of other clubs copying what Wenger is doing?

Yes, Ashley Cole and Wilshere are the only great English players. But why does where they come from matter so much?

Does a development strategy only count when they are English? I guess when Cesc turned up at Arsenal he was giving out 10 goals and 10 assists in a slow season?

Whats Kanu age got to do with anything? Wasnt he a good player?

This sounds like criticism for criticism sake...twisting facts to form an opinion instead of having a opinion based on facts.

The not talking to coaches and stuff, I cant comment on, I dont know.

The only thing that article touches on I really nodded my head on was breaking up that losing CL final team. Even if they were old and declining, their veteran presence even in a mentoring/reserve role would of been invaluable to the younger players. I think too many young players can be a problem, because nobody knows exactly what it takes to get to the championship level and Wenger is the only voice able to guide them. This probably is connected to the lack of a genuine, great captain since those times.
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:03 am

In his interview on sky sports Robson specifically mentioned Wenger doesn't do much training on defence, he didn't say training in general. It wouldn't be a surprise to me tbh
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Post by Sri Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:51 am

I enjoyed reading the comments and opinions of Franchise. Concise, constructive and logical. Thank you for the effort mate! Cheers!

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Post by Wilson37 Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:21 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:if we bought forwards with more finesse that would itself lead to more possession. Our midfield is good at keeping the ball but they have no one to distribute it to. Gervinhos ball retention is horrid, so is girouds, podolski offers nothing outside the final stage of attack, Walcott is much better at running behind defences than playing with his back to goal. We haven't got a single player to pass the ball forward to that would inspire confidence, the best at it is Chamberlain....
Thumbs up
that is what exactly i am saying from the beginning of the season, even before we started this terrible run.. our team cant withstand presure even from Bradford players.. that is how s*** our players are.. there is no playing passing or possession football with 2-3 players.. the entire team should be suited for the style.. it doesnt mean we need world class players like Cesc, RVP, Iniesta and Messi.. Swansea can do it with their players successfully.. i expect atleast that standard from Arsenal players...
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Post by free_cat Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:34 am

Maybe Arsenal should consider playing Cazorla out wide,Podolski up top, Walcott and a midfield of arteta, Wilshere as an AM and a CB in there, probably Vermaelen. I think they could improve this way for the time being.
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Post by furiouswindbottom Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:18 pm

free_cat wrote:Maybe Arsenal should consider playing Cazorla out wide,Podolski up top, Walcott and a midfield of arteta, Wilshere as an AM and a CB in there, probably Vermaelen. I think they could improve this way for the time being.

I've given up on Wenger ever trying something different. I doubt many will be shocked with a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 against Reading.

If Theo and Giroud are fit the team is utterly predictable.

Szczesney
Sagna Merty Vermy Gibbs
Wilshere Arteta
Walcott Cazorla Podolski
Giroud

Looks good on paper, but it just isn't really working. Theo makes a difference, so obviously we'll sell him to Man Utd Crying or Very sad

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Post by Raptorgunner Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:54 pm

Arsenal players losing faith in beleaguered Wenger
http://www.goal.com/en/news/596/exclusive/2012/12/12/3598603/arsenal-players-losing-faith-in-beleaguered-wenger

I know its from Goal.com but it has some truth to it imo. The team is being let down by few players and no professional team can survive this.
We are basically playing 7 players in most of our games. If you watch the last game once we made the sub to take out Ramshit and Gervshit the game was 11 vs 11 and we dominated them.

Wenger loves the power and that is the main reason why he staying at Arsenal for so long. How many other big clubs would give him total power?
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Post by Raptorgunner Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:05 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:In his interview on sky sports Robson specifically mentioned Wenger doesn't do much training on defence, he didn't say training in general. It wouldn't be a surprise to me tbh

“Steve Bould is a very good coach but he’s not allowed to coach them – he doesn’t do any coaching,” he said.

“Arsène Wenger is not doing enough on the training field. He’s not coaching the players, they have got no game strategy and, because he won’t let anyone else do it, Arsenal are going backwards and some of their players are going backwards.

“Sir Alex Ferguson is not a coach. He realises that, to get the best out of his players, he has to get the best coaches.

"He’s made sure his number two is not just a yes man, which Arsène Wenger likes to appoint. Arsène Wenger, because he has got a massive ego, because he’s a dictator when it comes to Arsenal Football Club, he’s not allowing Steve Bould to do any work.”

There has to be some truth to this.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/9741346/Arsenal-manager-Arsene-Wengers-relationship-with-Steve-Bould-questioned-following-defeat-at-Bradford.html
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Post by RealGunner Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:27 pm

The xcx wrote:I think incompetent suits Wenger better tbh..


I don't condone trolling in my section
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Post by The Franchise Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:41 pm

Raptorgunner wrote:
Diego Armando Maradona wrote:In his interview on sky sports Robson specifically mentioned Wenger doesn't do much training on defence, he didn't say training in general. It wouldn't be a surprise to me tbh

“Steve Bould is a very good coach but he’s not allowed to coach them – he doesn’t do any coaching,” he said.

“Arsène Wenger is not doing enough on the training field. He’s not coaching the players, they have got no game strategy and, because he won’t let anyone else do it, Arsenal are going backwards and some of their players are going backwards.

“Sir Alex Ferguson is not a coach. He realises that, to get the best out of his players, he has to get the best coaches.

"He’s made sure his number two is not just a yes man, which Arsène Wenger likes to appoint. Arsène Wenger, because he has got a massive ego, because he’s a dictator when it comes to Arsenal Football Club, he’s not allowing Steve Bould to do any work.”

There has to be some truth to this.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/9741346/Arsenal-manager-Arsene-Wengers-relationship-with-Steve-Bould-questioned-following-defeat-at-Bradford.html

That to me sounds like it has a ring of truth. However, I dont thinks true when it comes to the attacking end of the pitch. There is no way Arsenal can play how they have played over the years with no attacking instruction.

I am not surprised if he doesnt coach defending, set peices, how compact the team is, where they should drop back, where they should press. Only in dire situation do I think he has done that.

The difference in defensive tactics vs Barca tell me he has at some point done something.

PL game vs Swansea, probably not.

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Post by Jay29 Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:18 pm

Whatever methods Arsenal are adopting at the moment, they clearly aren't producing the right results. Performances suggest certain areas have been neglected in training, while the quality of some of our recent signings suggests that our scouting is not as good as it should be.

I've no idea if it's Wenger who pulls all those strings, but I do believe he has a large amount of influence.

The worrying thing for me isn't all this talks about rifts and what have you, but the lack of willingness to change and adapt our methods that are clearly not working as well as they should be.


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Post by Raptorgunner Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:31 pm

Wenger to be given 'considerable resources' in January, says Arsenal Supporters' Trust
"There is plenty of money there," Trust spokesman Tim Payton told BBC Sport.

"That was the message that Ivan and his finance director were giving this evening.

"He stayed for over two hours. He apologised for the result [at Bradford] and said it was not good enough and had to be better.

"The Arsenal fans were dissatisfied with the strength of the squad and particularly don't understand whether there were resources to be used.

"I specifically raised this with the finance director and his colleague and they were in no doubt there is considerable resources available to the manager ready to spend when he has identified the players he wants to sign.

"It's crystal clear that Arsenal fans need to wait until January for Arsene Wenger to use the cheque book he has been given well."

Wenger's position has come under increasing scrutiny in light on recent results, but the Trust still has complete faith in the club's most successful ever manager.

"Lots of people have asked me whether Arsene Wenger should go," said Payton.

"He certainly needs to change and improve, spend the money he's got, strengthen the set-up around him and the results will be the judge."
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Post by Raptorgunner Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:41 pm

If we lose to Reading, do you that would be the end of Wenger?

I dont think I can handle another loss, the pain is just getting bigger.
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I've never believed that the day would come when I thought Wenger might walk away from the club but looking at his body language the other night I honestly think that could happen.

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Post by Jay29 Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:45 pm

It's very unlikely Wenger would be sacked, even after a poor December. Chances are, he'll be given the January window to try and improve the squad and then the rest of the season to see if he can get into the top four.

I'm not sure we could handle the massive disruption Wenger leaving would cause in the middle of a season.

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