Re: Liverpool??

by stevieg8 Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:24 pm

I don't disagree with the concept, but the OP calls out a bunch of players that really aren't to blame... The problem isn't those players (with the exception of Reina), the problem is no depth or options up front and failure to finish the chances we create. Hopefully in January we'll be able to pick up another striker, and as Assaidi blends into the squad hopefully he'll come good too, giving us viable options in the attack. We'll see how that works, but I don't think the issue is Kelly, Shelvey or Borini. Just a poor placement for that criticism.

by The Messiah Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:34 pm

Liverpool are seriously in serious trouble, no one can bring them out of that problem except themselves. In order word, they must look to their youth system to rescue them, it's a good team Raheem has been give playing time, now they must look forward to investing heavily in their youth set up, per adventure in 3-5years time they could reclaim back their days of glories.

by McAgger Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:58 pm

The Messiah wrote:Liverpool are seriously in serious trouble, no one can bring them out of that problem except themselves. In order word, they must look to their youth system to rescue them, it's a good team Raheem has been give playing time, now they must look forward to investing heavily in their youth set up, per adventure in 3-5years time they could reclaim back their days of glories.

Bugger off...we're in a better position then we were last season at the start of the season or the year before that with Woy. Kenny went and splashed a ton of money on overrated British players, and I won't even comment on Woy and his spending :facepalm:

Our squad is better now than it's been for the past 2 years. BR's system is foreign to our squad, since none of them have played that way before (except Allen). With time it'll definitely get better, but we're in a much better position than we were for the past three years. Don't let this year fool you, the team is young and learning, and there's no pressure to win (at least this year).

Tbh Milan and Inter(to lesser extent) are in much worst situation than us IMO :coffee:

by The Messiah Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:07 am

But this is the first time Liverpool has failed to win a match in their first 4 league matches in 100years, I am worried about the progress of this club.

by McAgger Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:14 am

The Messiah wrote:But this is the first time Liverpool has failed to win a match in their first 4 league matches in 100years, I am worried about the progress of this club.

Rome wasn't built in a day :coffee:

This was expected!! In fact, I would go as far as to say, the team is progressing really well. We have taken well to the system and we've dominated 3/4 games in PL (Only Arsenal outplayed us). With time everything will click better. The squad only needs 4/5 more changes, but I rather we wait and give our current guys a chance to prove themselves (i.e. Reina, Enrique, Downing, Hendo).

by Raptorgunner Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:52 am

Schweini wrote:Arsenal had 4 points from their first 5 games last season...

way too early to judge a season.

We played quite well today.....After getting that first win, we'll get more belief and push on

This is what I like about you guys never give up, if this was us again we would have gone crazy.

by Red Alert Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:46 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:Watch them beat United next week

This.

by Mr_Puyol Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:39 am

Kizu wrote:My favorites in England It's a shame that these teams like Shity, MSG or Anzhi spend billions on players, and great, legendary teams like Liverpool, Milan can't buy WC players, and sell their stars.

Liverpool has there own TV show on FOX,I don't see Manu,Barca,Madrid with a TVshow. Cool

by Zero Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:49 am

ynwa wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:Watch them beat United next week

This.

And lose the next 5 games. :coffee:

by The 14th Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:04 am

You have some healthy optimism aggerswagger but be a bit more respectful to differing opinions eh? Very Happy

Sahin could be known as a deal by some liverpool fans but bare in mind hes a 1 year loan you paid us 6 million for with nothing more than a year in contract, some madridistas could say that you paid us for a 1 year babysitting loan 6 mil, more than half of what we payed for him while you warm him up and he comes back.

Not being mean about it but thats a way to look at it. His progress and the space at madrid will decide how long he stays away from madrid or if he even comes back. Thats why sahin said you never know if he stays at pool, hes fighting not to stay at pool but to impress mourinho and bring himself back.

While being a proffesional no doubt about it (he earned english pretty quickly)

by alexjanosik Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:13 am

I dont claim fully to know what type of system BR is trying to implement.
But I assume its a possession based style of play.
Based on that assumption I dont agree with the sentiments expressed by the Liverpool fans that the team is adpating well to the system.
I see a few glaring problems.For example,I only saw the first half yesterday but at one point Sunderland had 54 % possession.Thats jsut not good enough for a home game.And its not like Sunderland were pressing like crazy.
I see a few problems.Firstly the pressing is just not good enough.Both the forward line and the midfield need to press better off the ball.Secondly if they plan to have 60% plus possession every game the defensive line needs to be a lot higher than it is now.Its too deep now.
The midfield is also a problem.Allen is just not good enough to be a DM/ hloding player.Positioning is not too great and gets bypassed too easily. Need a better DM/holding player.I assume that player is Lucas.Also Allen's passing stats dont impress me.For me he passes sometimes just for the sake of passing.No real purpose in his passing.
Another problem in midfield is Gerrard.he is just not suited for the possession game.tries too many Hollywood passes.Doesnt have the intelligence,awareness and patience to play a possession game.they just wont be able to play a possession game with Gerrard in midfield.
On the formation,its interesting that BR shifted to 4-2-3-1 with Shelvey as the AM.I assume that was to provide more of a goal threat.Shelvey has a good shot and can drive into the box.provides a goal threat.But he messed up for me with the formation and the personnel.Allen and Gerrard are just not a good or suitable pivot.For a successful good pivot,you need a DLP/holding midfielder and an energetic box to box runner.Allen and Gerrard dont provide those qualities.If BR wanted to play 4-2-3-1,then it should have been Sahin and Shelvey in the pivot and gerrad as the 10.If Sahin was unavailable then Allen and Shelvey as the pivot and Gerrard as the 10.
So overall I dont agree that the players are adjusting well to the system and that the system is successfully being embedded.i see a few glaring problems.

by The 14th Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:27 am

alexjanosik wrote:I dont claim fully to know what type of system BR is trying to implement.
But I assume its a possession based style of play.
Based on that assumption I dont agree with the sentiments expressed by the Liverpool fans that the team is adpating well to the system.
I see a few glaring problems.For example,I only saw the first half yesterday but at one point Sunderland had 54 % possession.Thats jsut not good enough for a home game.And its not like Sunderland were pressing like crazy.
I see a few problems.Firstly the pressing is just not good enough.Both the forward line and the midfield need to press better off the ball.Secondly if they plan to have 60% plus possession every game the defensive line needs to be a lot higher than it is now.Its too deep now.
The midfield is also a problem.Allen is just not good enough to be a DM/ hloding player.Positioning is not too great and gets bypassed too easily. Need a better DM/holding player.I assume that player is Lucas.Also Allen's passing stats dont impress me.For me he passes sometimes just for the sake of passing.No real purpose in his passing.
Another problem in midfield is Gerrard.he is just not suited for the possession game.tries too many Hollywood passes.Doesnt have the intelligence,awareness and patience to play a possession game.they just wont be able to play a possession game with Gerrard in midfield.
On the formation,its interesting that BR shifted to 4-2-3-1 with Shelvey as the AM.I assume that was to provide more of a goal threat.Shelvey has a good shot and can drive into the box.provides a goal threat.But he messed up for me with the formation and the personnel.Allen and Gerrard are just not a good or suitable pivot.For a successful good pivot,you need a DLP/holding midfielder and an energetic box to box runner.Allen and Gerrard dont provide those qualities.If BR wanted to play 4-2-3-1,then it should have been Sahin and Shelvey in the pivot and gerrad as the 10.If Sahin was unavailable then Allen and Shelvey as the pivot and Gerrard as the 10.
So overall I dont agree that the players are adjusting well to the system and that the system is successfully being embedded.i see a few glaring problems.

Ya i havent been keeping up weekly with liverpool but i had the idea that with some of the players they have, theyd have some difficulties on successfully executing a possesion style idea without having to go through various adjustments which is to be expected, time will tell how the players adapt where he plays them and who else he buys.

by BeautifulGame Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:36 am

alexjanosik wrote:I dont claim fully to know what type of system BR is trying to implement.
But I assume its a possession based style of play.
Based on that assumption I dont agree with the sentiments expressed by the Liverpool fans that the team is adpating well to the system.
I see a few glaring problems.For example,I only saw the first half yesterday but at one point Sunderland had 54 % possession.Thats jsut not good enough for a home game.And its not like Sunderland were pressing like crazy.
I see a few problems.Firstly the pressing is just not good enough.Both the forward line and the midfield need to press better off the ball.Secondly if they plan to have 60% plus possession every game the defensive line needs to be a lot higher than it is now.Its too deep now.
The midfield is also a problem.Allen is just not good enough to be a DM/ hloding player.Positioning is not too great and gets bypassed too easily. Need a better DM/holding player.I assume that player is Lucas.Also Allen's passing stats dont impress me.For me he passes sometimes just for the sake of passing.No real purpose in his passing.
Another problem in midfield is Gerrard.he is just not suited for the possession game.tries too many Hollywood passes.Doesnt have the intelligence,awareness and patience to play a possession game.they just wont be able to play a possession game with Gerrard in midfield.
On the formation,its interesting that BR shifted to 4-2-3-1 with Shelvey as the AM.I assume that was to provide more of a goal threat.Shelvey has a good shot and can drive into the box.provides a goal threat.But he messed up for me with the formation and the personnel.Allen and Gerrard are just not a good or suitable pivot.For a successful good pivot,you need a DLP/holding midfielder and an energetic box to box runner.Allen and Gerrard dont provide those qualities.If BR wanted to play 4-2-3-1,then it should have been Sahin and Shelvey in the pivot and gerrad as the 10.If Sahin was unavailable then Allen and Shelvey as the pivot and Gerrard as the 10.
So overall I dont agree that the players are adjusting well to the system and that the system is successfully being embedded.i see a few glaring problems.

I agree with some of the assessment but we weren't the home team. We played at Sunderland.

As for the Gerrard Quandrum we already tried Shelvy as a pivot with Gerrard as AM in pre season friendly and EL games but Shelvy struggled real bad in that position. That's why Gerrard is playing in CM which is his least suited position in a posession based system. Good thing is with Sahin return for next game and Lucas soon to return from injury I think we will see a midfield that is comfortable in possesion based football.

by BeautifulGame Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:41 am

The 14th wrote:You have some healthy optimism aggerswagger but be a bit more respectful to differing opinions eh?

Sahin could be known as a deal by some liverpool fans but bare in mind hes a 1 year loan you paid us 6 million for with nothing more than a year in contract, some madridistas could say that you paid us for a 1 year babysitting loan 6 mil, more than half of what we payed for him while you warm him up and he comes back.

Not being mean about it but thats a way to look at it. His progress and the space at madrid will decide how long he stays away from madrid or if he even comes back. Thats why sahin said you never know if he stays at pool, hes fighting not to stay at pool but to impress mourinho and bring himself back.

While being a proffesional no doubt about it (he earned english pretty quickly)

We didn't a penny single penny to Real for sahin deal. Only agreed to pay 70 % of wages which does roughly equate to 5-6 mil euros

by The 14th Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:48 am

BeautifulGame wrote:
The 14th wrote:You have some healthy optimism aggerswagger but be a bit more respectful to differing opinions eh?

Sahin could be known as a deal by some liverpool fans but bare in mind hes a 1 year loan you paid us 6 million for with nothing more than a year in contract, some madridistas could say that you paid us for a 1 year babysitting loan 6 mil, more than half of what we payed for him while you warm him up and he comes back.

Not being mean about it but thats a way to look at it. His progress and the space at madrid will decide how long he stays away from madrid or if he even comes back. Thats why sahin said you never know if he stays at pool, hes fighting not to stay at pool but to impress mourinho and bring himself back.

While being a proffesional no doubt about it (he earned english pretty quickly)

We didn't a penny single penny to Real for sahin deal. Only agreed to pay 70 % of wages which does roughly equate to 5-6 mil euros

Where did you get that info?

Both transfermarkt and metro state that liverppol payed 4.4 million pounds in transfer fees. Unless you have an official clear liverpool link to state i was misinformed i will stay with my version. Very Happy

Couldnt post the links because im a new member.

by BeautifulGame Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:52 am

The 14th wrote:
BeautifulGame wrote:
The 14th wrote:You have some healthy optimism aggerswagger but be a bit more respectful to differing opinions eh?

Sahin could be known as a deal by some liverpool fans but bare in mind hes a 1 year loan you paid us 6 million for with nothing more than a year in contract, some madridistas could say that you paid us for a 1 year babysitting loan 6 mil, more than half of what we payed for him while you warm him up and he comes back.

Not being mean about it but thats a way to look at it. His progress and the space at madrid will decide how long he stays away from madrid or if he even comes back. Thats why sahin said you never know if he stays at pool, hes fighting not to stay at pool but to impress mourinho and bring himself back.

While being a proffesional no doubt about it (he earned english pretty quickly)

We didn't a penny single penny to Real for sahin deal. Only agreed to pay 70 % of wages which does roughly equate to 5-6 mil euros
Where did you get that info?

Both transfermarkt and metro state that liverppol payed 4.4 million pounds.

Couldnt post the links because im a new member.

Liverpool echo , Barnett ( times) and actually most reliable newspapers in UK.

And u seriously believe Metro Laughing

by The 14th Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:03 am

BeautifulGame wrote:
The 14th wrote:
BeautifulGame wrote:
The 14th wrote:You have some healthy optimism aggerswagger but be a bit more respectful to differing opinions eh?

Sahin could be known as a deal by some liverpool fans but bare in mind hes a 1 year loan you paid us 6 million for with nothing more than a year in contract, some madridistas could say that you paid us for a 1 year babysitting loan 6 mil, more than half of what we payed for him while you warm him up and he comes back.

Not being mean about it but thats a way to look at it. His progress and the space at madrid will decide how long he stays away from madrid or if he even comes back. Thats why sahin said you never know if he stays at pool, hes fighting not to stay at pool but to impress mourinho and bring himself back.

While being a proffesional no doubt about it (he earned english pretty quickly)

We didn't a penny single penny to Real for sahin deal. Only agreed to pay 70 % of wages which does roughly equate to 5-6 mil euros
Where did you get that info?

Both transfermarkt and metro state that liverppol payed 4.4 million pounds.

Couldnt post the links because im a new member.

Liverpool echo , Barnett ( times) and actually most reliable newspapers in UK.

And u seriously believe Metro

Transfermarkt..anyways you havent provided links with clear description which would help educate me if i am truly misinformed in this subject..wont believe it till i see it.. Very Happy

wikipedia says it too and i checked various resources, many actually and the ones i did find with a number reiterate that we were payed 5 million or so, i searched what i could and youre not proving me wrong so..what was it? Very Happy

Hm kop source says 2.8 million pounds..either way 4-6 million euros seems to be the number.

by BeautifulGame Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:16 am

Doing a google search is not that hard tbh.

And I am on mobile atm so it's pretty hard to provide unfortunately

by The 14th Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:19 am

BeautifulGame wrote:Doing a google search is not that hard tbh.

And I am on mobile atm so it's pretty hard to provide unfortunately

Did it mate, and im actually proving my self right. Ive got 3 links that prove me right, 4 actually, bring me some definitive correction if any..this is not a "challenge" btw, i just wanna know.

Either way i wouldn't name it an "great" deal, for now it looks like a babysitting job, and he is coming from major non playing time so he is rusty and in need for improvement. A loaned player for 1 year in developing form is hardly a big deal, if not instead a big compromise for both parties, dont expect a full form left footed xabi alonso, he needs time, but i do hope he does well and liverpool as well in the process.

by McAgger Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:28 am

The 14th wrote:You have some healthy optimism aggerswagger but be a bit more respectful to differing opinions eh?

Sahin could be known as a deal by some liverpool fans but bare in mind hes a 1 year loan you paid us 6 million for with nothing more than a year in contract, some madridistas could say that you paid us for a 1 year babysitting loan 6 mil, more than half of what we payed for him while you warm him up and he comes back.

Not being mean about it but thats a way to look at it. His progress and the space at madrid will decide how long he stays away from madrid or if he even comes back. Thats why sahin said you never know if he stays at pool, hes fighting not to stay at pool but to impress mourinho and bring himself back.

While being a proffesional no doubt about it (he earned english pretty quickly)

you'll learn why I'm being slightly disrespectful toward The Messiah once you get some experience with his posts. You'll also find that I'm not the only one Very Happy

As for us paying anything for Sahin, it is how BeautifulGame is saying it. We only agreed to pay 70% of his wages with no loan fee to the best of my knowledge.

Also, I would like to point that you're overly confident that Sahin is, in fact, going to back to Madrid. I share a different perspective to that, I think if he does well with Liverpool his chances of returning to Madrid would be very slim because of the treatment he received under Mou.

by Lex Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:01 am

Mr_Puyol wrote:Liverpool has there own TV show on FOX,I don't see Manu,Barca,Madrid with a TVshow.

by RED Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:22 am

Donuts wrote:If they didn't buy stupidly they would be much higher to be honest if Barcelona secure the Agger deal in December hopefully Liverpool will use the money wisely
I root for them in EPL but sometimes they are frustrating.

I agree a bit. Kenny Dalglish wasted a tonne of money last summer on mediocre players, and you can see now that Brendan Rodgers is trying in a way to budge these players out. Carrol is gone on loan, Henderson has barely featured, Adams was sold and a 17 year old kid (albeit a much, much better player) is keeping Downing out the team. If they had the scouts, like say, that Newcastle has, they would be in the top 4.

FSG will want to see some significant imrpovements from Rodgers before giving him the type of money that was afforded to Dalglish. And thats just harsh on Rodgers since he is just trying to fix the mistakes Dalglish made in the squad.

by mr-r34 Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:28 am

why would we refuse to pay 2 mil extra for dempsey but lash out 5 mil for sahin for 1 season, its not how we conduct business.

by BeautifulGame Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:58 am

The 14th wrote:
BeautifulGame wrote:Doing a google search is not that hard tbh.

And I am on mobile atm so it's pretty hard to provide unfortunately
Did it mate, and im actually proving my self right. Ive got 3 links that prove me right, 4 actually, bring me some definitive correction if any..this is not a "challenge" btw, i just wanna know.

Either way i wouldn't name it an "great" deal, for now it looks like a babysitting job, and he is coming from major non playing time so he is rusty and in need for improvement. A loaned player for 1 year in developing form is hardly a big deal, if not instead a big compromise for both parties, dont expect a full form left footed xabi alonso, he needs time, but i do hope he does well and liverpool as well in the process.

We get Sahin for one year and sign Xabi for free next season :coffee:

by donttreadonred Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:56 pm

BeautifulGame wrote:
We get Sahin for one year and sign Xabi for free next season

What a sense of humor.

Regarding the Sahin fee:
- Liverpool Echo

As for the real topic of this thread, Liverpool's performances, I would agree that we have a long way to go until the squad completely settles into the new system.

BR's preferred style demands that his team allow the opponent to control the ball for as little time as possible throughout a match. This means that they do need to retain possession and win it back as soon as possible upon losing it. At times we've looked close to achieving these goals (Man City). At others, we've looked far from capable of performing adequately (Arsenal, West Brom, and maybe yesterday. I'm not sure. I was working and unable to watch the match live.) You're right in your observation that a lot of this frustration comes down to how the midfield performs.

Personally, I think BR wants to play a female triangle in midfield ( \/ ), as opposed to a male triangle ( /\ ). This would leave one defensive midfielder to cover the center-backs and recycle the ball. This leaves two more box-to-box CM positions (sometimes with one staying on the edge of the middle third with the other having more license to go forward). With that framework in mind let’s look at the players currently slotting in.

First of all, Allen certainly isn't our first choice "DM". Lucas is tailor-made for the holding role, but he’s been horribly unlucky with his recent injury so soon after his return from his previous one. In Lucas’s absence, Allen really is not capable of replacing him in all aspects. He's playing as a deep-lying, play-maker. It’s not that he’s inept at tackling, but he's simply too small to play effectively as a pure holding player. He's certainly capable of providing the stability and control in attack, but the defensive cover is definitely below the level Lucas could provide. Right now, we don't really have a viable DM.

Henderson has become something of a non-factor in recent matches. I think we will definitely see more of him over the next 2 weeks due to the frequency of matches. However, I honestly don’t know where he will feature. Daglish famously, and stubbornly, played him on the right last season. Barring a few run-outs at CM in preseason matches, BR has played him as one of the wide attackers (opposite of Pacheco or Downing against Hearts…?). Due to this lack of consistency of position and his flat lack of matches, it’s hard to see just how he will feature in Rodgers’s plans. Considering there were rumors of an attempted swap for Dempsey in the transfer window, it could be another case of a player that has approximately 3 ½ months to convince Rodgers of his ability to contribute to this team.

Shelvey looks like he could be a perfect successor for one of the more attacking roles in midfield. He’s shown a willingness and capability to press from midfield and get forward to support the attack. (Does anyone else remember his near winner against Man City?) Granted, he’s been short of the last 10% of quality needed to become a real threat in every match, but who hasn’t been lacking in this quality on the LFC squad? Not yet an everyday player, but definitely a good option to have in the matchday squad.

Sahin… As I said, I have yet to see yesterday’s match due to other commitments. So, my only frame of reference is a rather anonymous showing in a red shirt and what he’s done for Dortmund and Madrid. That said, he’s showed good positional discipline and willingness to close down against Arsenal, even if he was lacking a little bit of quality that comes with match fitness. He’s a far more physical presence than Allen in midfield, but is quite capable of being the calming and controlling presence in the center. Because of this, I have often wondered just how he, Allen, Lucas and Gerrard can be effectively used in the same midfield.

Gerrard is has actually become something of a headache in selection due to the qualities that previously cemented his place in the hearts of LFC supporters everywhere. His desire to be a dynamic influence in matches has lead to poor positional discipline and an eschewing of the central tenet of retaining possession. He has shown a worrying tendency to attempt to thread balls that are just a bit beyond his range/ability, thus giving away possession. It’s hard to tell right now if this is a sign of an accelerated decline due to age, fatigue from his playing time with England and in pre-season, or simply a poor run of form. In any case, it is a worry if he cannot find a bit more quality in his possession and link-up play with the forward line.

I know I have ignored the inability of the forward line to provide a real cutting edge, but a lot of that can be attributed to a midfield that has looked disheveled at times. If the midfield can perform its job of retaining possession and playing the attackers into advantageous positions, then the forwards will be free to play further up the pitch and make the most of their attacking talents.

So… No, I don’t think we’re quite executing the style that we have been aspiring to just yet. At this moment I’m not convinced either way if it is predominantly a symptom of selection/injuries, acclimating to the system, or simply poor form of key players. Likely it is a combination of all factors. However, as I have stressed so many times before, this was never going to be a quick fix, and the early season was never likely to garner good results given our schedule. Granted, we haven’t taken full points from the fixtures that were most realistic, but it’s not the end of the world. We’re still very much a work in progress and the most important thing for this squad right now is time. The unfortunate reality is that the club desperately needs a win to alleviate the pressure from the media and the anxiety of the supporters. Patience is not a virtue that is common amongst football fans, but it is precisely what we need right now.