Cesc isn't happy

Clockwork Orange wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

Clockwork Orange wrote:Is it really that hard to comprehend? I just do not think your youth system is as amazing as people make it out to be. Is tha wrong? As I said I agree fully with the conclusions drawn by a presdient from the Brazilian team ( I can't remember his name, apologies). As I said I agree with billy_gr statement.

I just thought that your reasoning of why it was nothing special was... well... weird. Even Cruyff have said that a youth system is their to produced great players and not win trophies.

And I think that it was Mario Gobbi. But I dont think that his situation would fit your arguement that Barca does not have a special academy while maintaining that Ajax has one. IIRC he said something like this, he said that brazilian shouldnt try to copy barca because his team, Corinthians, defeated Barca in the U17 CWC final.

If you use his situation, then I should be able to say that Ajax now has a youth system that is nothing special simply because Inter defeated your team in the final of the nextgen, no?

That would be fair enough, because we don't. Over the last decade we concentrated more on buying players and our debt rose. Only since Frank de Boer has taken over have we returned to the old ways of developing from the inside.

OK, so with you saying this then Barcelona has the best youth system over the last decade and right now, correct?

IF you want to say there overrated compared to Ajax which is I'm sure the argument you were trying to get into then fine that's an argument to have but to say there overrated, compared to what?

Who's is better currently or over the last decade?

And LOL at you keep saying you rely on Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta. Have you seen our record in games Puyol plays in and when he doesn't and the streak of unbeaten games we had when he started?

And then you act like if a player isn't world class they just don't count and bring up Tello and Cuenca.

I'm pretty sure Pep Guardiola was pretty good, no? Do you think Arsenal was and is happy with Fabregas and Arteta? How about Liverpool with Reina, do you think there happy with him?

Do you think we would have won trophies without Pedro, Pique and Busquets who some will say is world class although I don't agree.

How about Thiago, do know how many big offers we have turned down for him especially after the silverware he won for Spain's underage teams.

I mean I'm leaving a million really good players out. You act if there not world class then who cares. well guess what no team plays with all World Class players and no academy produces all World class players.

Do you know of another team that currently could field two midfields of that came from there youth systems and I'm still leaving out a lot of good players.

1) Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets
2) Fabregas, Arteta, Thiago

So if were the number 1 youth system currently and have been for the last 10 years plus we won a CL title with 8 of our youth team players in the starting 11 how are we overrated.

If were not the #1 youth academy, please tell us who is.

IS that in a more polite manner, do you feel less threatened at your computer half way around the world.

I like how you put Arteta in there when I guarantee you if he was still at Everton you wouldn't.

Clockwork Orange wrote:

CBarca wrote:I don't even need to have a long post to say that saying La Masia isn't anything special is ridiculous.

Saying La Masia isn't much better than the rest (implied by 'nothing special') is just ridiculous

This is Barcelona teams is among the best in history, and this Spanish team is among the best in history (if not the best!), all comprised with a backbone of La Masia youth products. That's special.

I feel like your that special kind of troll that puts good effort into his posts

Again I ask, bar Xavi, Iniesta and Messi how many of these guys are elite level players? I really don't get it. As I've said before, I have seen your current youth team and quite frankly noone thre impressed me. Call it trolling, call it whatever you want. It seems like in this forum whenever there is an opposite opinion then it is considered trolling. I wondered why people here rarely post seriously. Now I am starting to understand why. I post my opinion, give you my reasons and you say I am a troll. I never said La masia was average, I just do not think it is anything out of the ordinary. Even with all these 'special' players, your team has too rely solely on one player. And denying that Barcelona doesn't depend on Messi is just silly. Where Messi to get injured, Barcelona would suffer a similar fate that they did in 2008. Cesc not adapting to the system is a smokescreen. The players he has to try and 'bench' are freaks. If the sytem is Xavi, Iniesta and Messi, then yes, Cesc has failed to adapt. Admitting that the sytem isn't those 3/2 opens a whole different debate.

Lol I never said you're a troll, I said I feel like you are a troll. I'm convinced your not, but that you just have outrageous opinions, which is OK. It gets some originality in here I guess.

I don't get it though. For some reason you think that because not every player in Barca is an elite level player, that our youth system is not good? Newsflash- no youth system in the world is consistently churning out elite level players, not even the Ajax system, that's ridiculous and we all know that, if they were, the team would have a monopoly due to the money saved and the quality of their team. You cannot have elite players in every position, that's unrealistic. Whatever 'elite players' means anyway, world class? Top 5? You never specified, but you did put it up on this unreachable pedestal (for most players) that Messi, Xavi and Iniesta are on, which- by the way, is hilarious.

But then, how many youth systems keep churning out as many brilliant players as Barca? If you want to use your ridiculous terminology, no I guess not many others are elite, but hell, not many players reach the heights of Messixaviesta so that's kind of a bad scale on it's own yes?

Can you name another youth system recently that has put out such players as Busquets (IMO elite player), Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Pique, Puyol, Pedro, Cesc, Valdes and hopefully Thiago? Most of these players would start in the best clubs in the world, and most of these are among the best in their position. Even if you discard Messixaviesta, it's still amazing no?

And you say relying on Messi like it's a bad thing. I guess it does sound like a bad thing to 'rely' on Messi (and saying Barcelona really rely on him is...weird, they would do very well without him, that extra umph may not be there though), anyway, Barcelona rely no more on Messi than any other team in the world would- he's just that damn good. Let's give Ajax Messi and see who they rely on, ffs. Same thing with your whole system thing, it's not bad to have the 'system' work on account of those three players, they're that good what are you going to do, not build a system around them? No that's stupid. Does that make any other Barca players any less good? No they're fantastic lol, and it's ridiculous for you to say otherwise.

Once again let me emphasize this point because it is an important point. Results speak louder than words. Barcelona have been the best team in the last 4 years full stop, the amount of titles won, it's fact. It's one of the best teams in history, in many people's opinions, and it probably is. Then there is a NT (with no Messi mind you) that has won 2 euros and a World Cup in succession. All comprised mostly of La Masia youth. These are the results.

Why are people saying " oohhh a clockwork orange so good". WTF? I respect your opinion but I mean, saying La Masia isn't anything out of the ordinary is just...dude, seriously? Are you going to argue about results? They don't go your way bud.

Oh yeah, if La Masia isn't anything special, what is? I want to hear this, it will give me good entertainment.

I like how you put Arteta in there when I guarantee you if he was still at Everton you wouldn't.

On what basis is this? Is Everton a small team? Was Arteta an unknown player there, or bad? No of course he knew him as many Barca fans did. Arteta was well known lol, and we all knew his quality.

Fair point. Messi would probably "carry" any team he plays in. When you have someone that good it makes sense to centre the team around him. Does this discredit the other members of the team? Not at all. Does it mean when that player is not there the team is not the same and is likely to have an immediate negative impact? Of course it does.

COrange - You do need to get off the whole La Masia + one man team argument. You present your case logically however as I've stated your side-points are really making your entire argument appear subjective through the comparison with Ajax.

Further to that - the way you refer to the trio you mention as "freaks" it is almost like you imply La Masia didn't aid their development at all, that they would have turned out the same players under the supervision of any youth program, this is evident as you refer to it as "nothing out of the ordinary"... Which I think is unfair and incorrect given it is still an exceptional facility. I think you are entitled to your opinion that it gets over-hyped and I agree with you. With the hype that surrounds Barcelona do you really find it surprising though?

did I read that there is a squad of Madrid cantera players ready to be starters???
I'm willing to bet half a year's wages that not even two will make it.
anyway getafe can always be happy for young madridistas

billy_gr wrote:did I read that there is a squad of Madrid cantera players ready to be starters???
I'm willing to bet half a year's wages that not even two will make it.
anyway getafe can always be happy for young madridistas

As a starter or as a squad player? Because Because quite a few already made the jump... and once you're on the squad you always have a shot at being a starter.

Anyway Castilla beat La Masia already. We have nothing to prove

Zealous wrote:

billy_gr wrote:did I read that there is a squad of Madrid cantera players ready to be starters???
I'm willing to bet half a year's wages that not even two will make it.
anyway getafe can always be happy for young madridistas

As a starter or as a squad player?

who knows? we won't see any of them :p
anyway. there is nothing to debate here. even if you have talented players who would potentially turn to first 11 ones, it's not like you'll give them a chance.

You don't know that for sure. Besides we've made an effort into making sure we can buy our players back when they are ready.

Jose is a fan of Arbeloa, Callejon, Morata and Nacho. That's four straight off the bat. Also the ones waiting in the wings are Alex (CM), J. Rod (CM), Carvajal (RB) Jese (LW/RW), Denis (SS/LW). These are some talented youngsters, I'm sure some of them will make the jump.

i know... i'm not a wizzard to predict the future but i don't remamber Madrid using any players from the cantera in the recent years. let's see if mou proves me wrong (although i don't think he will). from the names you mentioned though, only arbeloa and calejon receive considerable game time. and i must admit my ignorance, i didn't know arbeloa was a madrid youth. did liverpool signed him from u?

Marcelo and Higuain were signed when they were 18 as well. Not cantera persay... but they count as "homegrown" since they spent 3 years at Real Madrid before turning 22.

We give kids a chance. But you need to be talented and really mentally tough. The pressure and expectations are immediate and enormous.

Barca is going to feel that same pressure from fans and sponsors for the first time now. There is no opportunity to allow kids to to grow into the club. If they're up, they need to be up to level. If performance dips, you'll need to sacrifice them unfortunately.

billy_gr wrote:i know... i'm not a wizzard to predict the future but i don't remamber Madrid using any players from the cantera in the recent years. let's see if mou proves me wrong (although i don't think he will). from the names you mentioned though, only arbeloa and calejon receive considerable game time. and i must admit my ignorance, i didn't know arbeloa was a madrid youth. did liverpool signed him from u?

Arbeloa went to Deportivo, then to Liverpool and then returned to Real Madrid.

Best midfielder in EPL

Misleading stat. Cesc has played the 5th most minutes out of any team player after Messi, Valdes, Masche and Busi I believe during the last season.

Latest rumors have it Milan want him on loan

----Boateng---Montolivo
----------Fabregas

Emaharg wrote:I like how you put Arteta in there when I guarantee you if he was still at Everton you wouldn't.

Why, he was still quality at Everton. Is there some reason why I shouldn't put him in there?

His profile has increased immensely since he moved to Arsenal since he made a move to a better team and over the time he's been at Arsenal he's proved he belongs in a big team and Arsenal fans love him, just ask them and he won them over with his play.

Everton fans loved him too. I don't really understand what you're trying to imply with this comment?

Are you trying to imply people didn't think highly of him at Everton? Because as I remember there was a big push in England while he was at Everton to make him a citizen and put him on England's National Team.

Maybe you didn't know who he was and how good he was but I still did.

But we have class midfielders coming out of our ears so if you don't like the Arteta choice for what ever reason that no one seems to be able to figure out throw in Thiago Motta. He currently plays for PSG and Inter before then winning over 11 trophies and played in the Euro cup final for Italy recently.

Does that make you happy, are those teams big enough?

I havent seen much of Arteta at Arsenal but he was as good for us as he is now if not better.

Yohan Modric wrote:----Boateng---Montolivo
----------Fabregas

And who would defend?

The Franchise wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:----Boateng---Montolivo
----------Fabregas

And who would defend?

Think of Fifa Dani, Fifa !

The Franchise wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:----Boateng---Montolivo
----------Fabregas

And who would defend?

The DM behind and Boateng can play B2B.

Nameless wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:----Boateng---Montolivo
----------Fabregas

that setup would definitely own.

Not enough DM's

Boateng ostracized.

Welcome to Miloan

Xavi has been strangely quiet during the struggles of Cex

Fair weather friend

Why Cex....why did you have to do it