Arsenal: How to move forward?

Mudcat.. Excellent discussion and posts.. I really like your posts.. You really speak like a pro.. Keep posting...

@Anjl

Enough of this media 'LETS SPEND MONEY AS IF IT RAINS' bull.
JUST because everyone else spends crap loads we have to stoop down to their levels?
JUST because players have no loyalty for the shirt they wear and whore themselves out to thehighest bidder (the whole crux of being a whore), means we have to bend backwards to accommodate their idiocy?
Great, let go of your freaking morals and dignity go out the window.
Im proud of what Arsenal is doing and what they have accomplished with the budget they are on and I wouldnt want itany other way.
I want our youth players to comeup, I want us to be able to root for a club that is debt free and have done things on their own terms and not taking loans like there is no tomorrow or dropping their dress for a billionaire who will use us as a toy.
You dont like it? Go join Spuds orCity

same stance for me too.. I too dont want Kroenke or Usmanov to pump in money from outside.. I am sure we too can 'buy' trophies if we spent as the media says.. But then whats the difference between us and City..?
But these days the loyalty of players is a concern.. And the excuse 'Ambition' makes me sick.. I dont want us to make megatransfers but we need to keep our everimproving young players so that the club benefits from its youth/selfsustaining policy..
And my understanding from whatever little i have read so far..
i think the board is at fault here.. May be they are not 'ambitious' enough.. RVP, who have no right to complain, in desperation came up with some nonsense of which some part may be true.. R&W taking an oppertunity to hit against Kroenke and to win some support..
and poor Wenger is restricted by the board and is being let down by his players.. but he is too loyal to make a public statement...

Wilson37 wrote:Mudcat.. Excellent discussion and posts.. I really like your posts.. You really speak like a pro.. Keep posting...

Thanks Wilson! I'll be around, at least from time to time.

I suppose this fits here as well as anywhere else. A humorous column that takes a look at Arsenal's ownership situation, past and present, as well as The Guardian's anti-Arsenal bias.



http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/22783?

I know most of you are against usmanov and dont want us to turn in to City, and I dont want us to turn in to City also, we all know we dont have to spend like City to attract players all we have to do is hold on to our main players..

All I want is that for us to be able to supply Wenger with the money he needs to buy the players he wants that can win us championships. RVP should have never made the statement he did but I think he is tired of all the lies and empty promises. I know even Wenger is unhappy, always looking at cheaper alternative to the player he really wants.

The chances of us finding another coach close to what Wenger is capable of doing is very slim, just think of what Wenger could done in the world of football with full potential. We could have been a dynasty as good as Barcelona, but we will never know.

Raptorgunner wrote:I know most of you are against usmanov and dont want us to turn in to City, and I dont want us to turn in to City also, we all know we dont have to spend like City to attract players all we have to do is hold on to our main players..

All I want is that for us to be able to supply Wenger with the money he needs to buy the players he wants that can win us championships. RVP should have never made the statement he did but I think he is tired of all the lies and empty promises. I know even Wenger is unhappy, always looking at cheaper alternative to the player he really wants.

The chances of us finding another coach close to what Wenger is capable of doing is very slim, just think of what Wenger could done in the world of football with full potential. We could have been a dynasty as good as Barcelona, but we will never know.

This is exactly my point. No one wants Arsenal to turn into a City. Arsenal does not need to be like City to achieve success with Wenger at the helm.

However a little bit of funds, to sign the players required will go a long way. And the board does not seem willing to do even that.

Raptorgunner wrote:I know most of you are against usmanov and dont want us to turn in to City, and I dont want us to turn in to City also, we all know we dont have to spend like City to attract players all we have to do is hold on to our main players..

All I want is that for us to be able to supply Wenger with the money he needs to buy the players he wants that can win us championships. RVP should have never made the statement he did but I think he is tired of all the lies and empty promises. I know even Wenger is unhappy, always looking at cheaper alternative to the player he really wants.

The chances of us finding another coach close to what Wenger is capable of doing is very slim, just think of what Wenger could done in the world of football with full potential. We could have been a dynasty as good as Barcelona, but we will never know.

A few questions:

Do you really want money from a gangster to fund Arsenal?

What lies and empty promises have been made to Robin Van Persie?

When has Arsene Wenger ever spent a lot of money? He bought Thierry Henry for about 40 percent of what he got for Anelka that same summer (his profit off Anelka was £22.5 million). In fact, he also brought in Sylvinho and Lauren that summer and still had £6 million left over. The following year the sale of Overmar and Petit funded the purchase of Pires, Wiltord, Edu and Jeffers. After those two years of selling and buying, Arsenal won the league. Fabregas didn't cost him anything. Neither did Sol Campbell. He paid £150,000 for Kolo Toure. These are the moves that led to The Invincibles. It's not about being rich. It's about being smart.

kiranr wrote:

However a little bit of funds, to sign the players required will go a long way. And the board does not seem willing to do even that.

They spent £25 million on Podolski and Giroud before the transfer window was even open.

Mudcat wrote:

kiranr wrote:

However a little bit of funds, to sign the players required will go a long way. And the board does not seem willing to do even that.

They spent £25 million on Podolski and Giroud before the transfer window was even open.

Yeah, this season they are doing something. But, the seasons before this, they did not do as much as was required.

Wenger does not need to spend like City to assemble a title winning team. If they had made transfers like this over the past 4-5 seasons, this team would have been immense by now. I just feel the board missed a trick here. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but it was not like fans were not calling on the board to spend a little.

This is my only criticism of an otherwise fantastically run football club.

Thank you for the replies guys. Some great comments.

Let me just say that when you write things you often look back and think of ways you could alter your opinion slightly and alter your words. I believe I was overly harsh on a few points. I don't think Arsenal have been horrible in the past seven years. I also rate Mikel Arteta very highly, he's one player I've always enjoyed watching in the EPL. You've misread this if you think I was belittling him, and now I regret using him as an example. I should have used Chamakh or something. I stand by what I said though, he won't carry them to a title. He was their best signing, which is why I spoke of him.

I'm also not suggesting you spend money like Manchester City. What I believe is Arsenal need to identify their problem areas and fix them. Actions have not been proactive... for me this club has been allowed to drift for far too long... 'wait for next season'... just not a good attitude.

You guys watch Arsenal far more than me, so I take every word as yours to heart. However, despite your criticism I won't change my view on Arsenal... its disappointment I feel when I look at the club, because I think and know they can do better.

And Mudcat... Thank you for your words of advice and support. However, I certainly haven't been swayed by the media or fans in forming this opinion. I rarely come to this forum and I really have no idea what the fans think of this. In fact, if anything I thought most fans were still in support of the club and defend whats going on (when I think they should be pushing for change). I see what you mean, but no, I definitely was not swayed by the media or popular opinion. This is something thats been forming in my head for a long time.

Just for the record... I think Arsenal have made a few positive steps... like I outlined, but like I said... this RVP move is symbolic for me.

Do you really want money from a gangster to fund Arsenal?

To answer your question yes I would take his money if that means we will keep our stars and pay them the money they deserve. Whats worse taking money from a guy who has 18b or rebuilding every year and being a feeding club? I dont know about you guys but its sickens me knowing every year we could lose our main players to other teams.

Most billionaire businessmen make their fortune in unethical criminal ways. That list includes also bankers and politicians. Why is it all of a sudden pick on Usmanov only? and how did Kroenke make his money? for me Uxmanov is more like a fan than a owner.

kiranr wrote:

AnJl wrote:Enough of this media 'LETS SPEND MONEY AS IF IT RAINS' bull.

JUST because everyone else spends crap loads we have to stoop down to their levels?

JUST because players have no loyalty for the shirt they wear and whore themselves out to the highest bidder (the whole crux of being a whore), means we have to bend backwards to accommodate their idiocy?

Great, let go of your freaking morals and dignity go out the window.

Im proud of what Arsenal is doing and what they have accomplished with the budget they are on and I wouldnt want it any other way.

I want our youth players to come up, I want us to be able to root for a club that is debt free and have done things on their own terms and not taking loans like there is no tomorrow or dropping their dress for a billionaire who will use us as a toy.

You dont like it? Go join Spuds or City

Increasing your budget slightly to get one or two world class talent is not going to put you into debt.

Plus, if the debt is serviceable through Arsenal's own earnings, it is not a bad thing like you are portraying it right now.

Oh, dont get me wrong, I am not saying DONT EVA EVA spend, but spend it wisely and within the your moral and monetary bounds without disrupting your clubs future prospects.

This isnt trolling nor am I trying to start anything here, but remember the Ibra transfer, didnt you even flinch a bit when you saw the massive sum (adding Eto's move to Inter in monetary terms), it is sums like these that people expect us to pay and is unfortunately required to get top talent.

But tell me why should we do it when we have someone who has a brilliant scouting team and an uncanny knack for capturing talent on cheap?

Sagna came for little money, Flamini came on for free, Clichy barely anything, Fabregas near nothing, Vieira close to nothing, Van Persie himself, close to nothing.

All good to top talent, which combined together will not even come close to the average transfer of Chelsea, Man City, Real or Man United

But tell me why should we do it when we have someone who has a brilliant scouting team and an uncanny knack for capturing talent on cheap?

Last time I check we paid 15m for Oxlade,12m for Walcott, Nasri 12m and about to pay 6m for a uknown french kid. I would love to get players for cheap but the oil money changed everything.

Those days are gone, we will never be that lucky again, if we want any good young talent we have to pay out of our ass for them.
The board and Wenger were lucky we had so many young stars that were brought in and help us for past 7 years.

kiranr wrote:

Mudcat wrote:

kiranr wrote:

However a little bit of funds, to sign the players required will go a long way. And the board does not seem willing to do even that.

They spent £25 million on Podolski and Giroud before the transfer window was even open.

Yeah, this season they are doing something. But, the seasons before this, they did not do as much as was required.

Wenger does not need to spend like City to assemble a title winning team. If they had made transfers like this over the past 4-5 seasons, this team would have been immense by now. I just feel the board missed a trick here. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but it was not like fans were not calling on the board to spend a little.

This is my only criticism of an otherwise fantastically run football club.

I would just say, as a reminder, that Kroenke has only been the primary owner for one year. This summer, they've spent more than Manchester United and Manchester City combined at this point. So it's really far too early to complain about the current ownership not making money available.

Raptorgunner wrote:

Do you really want money from a gangster to fund Arsenal?

To answer your question yes I would take his money if that means we will keep our stars and pay them the money they deserve. Whats worse taking money from a guy who has 18b or rebuilding every year and being a feeding club? I dont know about you guys but its sickens me knowing every year we could lose our main players to other teams.

Most billionaire businessmen make their fortune in unethical criminal ways. That list includes also bankers and politicians. Why is it all of a sudden pick on Usmanov only? and how did Kroenke make his money? for me Uxmanov is more like a fan than a owner.

Wow. Just wow. Okay, just a few points:

Arsenal has always sold top players. I just listed many big names sold by Wenger, who then went on the buy other players who became keys to Arsenal's success.

And all this stuff about being a "selling club' is just nonsense. All clubs are selling clubs. Just the other day I listed a whole bunch of top players, from Beckham to Cristiano Ronaldo, who were sold by Manchester United between 2004 and 2009. AC Milan sold Kaka and built a club that won the Scudetto (which they had never won when Kaka was there). Juventus sold Zidane and over the following five season won four Scudettos and lost to Milan in a Champions League final. Barcelona sold Michael Laudrup to Real Madrid!

Just because a player thinks he's worth and deserves a certain amount doesn't mean he is. It would be foolish to just throw money at a player who has had only one great injury-free season after seven years of trying -- mostly unsuccessfully -- to stay healthy. If Robin Van Persie is worth as much as he (and apparently you) think he is, then Arsenal will be well-compensated. Personally, I think it's likely they'll get more than he's worth considering his age and injury history. If that's the case, Arsenal would be stupid to tie themselves to paying him Manchester City wages (and, just for the record, Manchester City is stupid to pay such wages too).

I agree that most billionaires have probably engaged in some shady business practices somewhere along the way, but that's not the same as being a convicted gangster and racketeer. When we're talking about being involved with the Russian Mafia, we're talking about blood money. I care too much for Arsenal FC to see it sell its soul.

This is a good, if not a bit biased, article on Usmanov and why he shouldn't have anything to do with the club:

http://www.thebeautifulgroan.com/2012/07/05/usmanovs-attempts-to-polarise-outdo-van-persie-for-transparency/

A key point it raises:

It is also easy for him to criticise the board, just like it is easy for any politician in opposition to criticise – they don’t have to come up with a concrete and viable plan of their own, just verbally dissect the one in action. And a politician is exactly what Usmanov is – not a kindly old charitable gentlemen, but a PR-driven brutal politicking businessman. If he were a fan, as he claims to be, we would see him in more positive times. Where was we when we were winning games, signing players and getting over the finish line to claim third (whatever you think of that ‘aim’, it was the target of the day)? We only see him when the chips are down, when players want to leave, when targets aren’t being hit. Whenever Arsenal is in the news for the wrong reasons, up pops his head with another bit of PR spin.

Usmanov is, first and foremost, a businessman. He's not going to come in, throw millions at everything so we can buy players and sit back thinking "job well done". He wants a return on his investment. He wants the club to pay dividends to its shareholders.

For all the accusations that the current board are money-hoarding and holding back funds from Wenger, the club doesn't pay dividends. It hasn't done so for a very long time.

And for all the talk that the old board didn't care about the club, they obviously cared enough to devote countless hours and a hell of a lot of money to simultaneously get Arsenal to the next level and ensure its long term future. That's pretty caring.

Another key point it raises, and I think this is especially poignant at this time, is the following:

Usmanov is attempting to polarise the fanbase by making us believe that if we are anti-Kroenke, we are pro-Usmanov. This is categorically NOT the case.

It is possible to dislike both parties. It does not have to be one or the other. I'm very much in the same boat as the blogger here: I do not want Usmanov involved, but that doesn't mean I'm fully behind Kroenke. At the moment, I think he's the lesser of two evils, in a sense. He's not changed anything for better or for worse at this point, but I would like to know what his vision for the club is, beyond keeping the self-financing model (which, incidentally, I am 100% supportive of).

At this moment in time, we are by no means in a bad position. We have a great stadium, a huge fanbase and a squad delivering good football and European football season after season. And it's gotten to this point by spending wisely, selling for high prices and developing young talents. We do need a kick to get up to the next level, but as I've said before, we don't need to drastically change what we're doing now.

Look at this way: Arsenal's problem is that it can't pay players the wages of other big clubs. Not because they don't have enough money, but because they're inefficiently spending their money on wages for players who don't deserve them (i.e. £52k for Bendtner, £50k for Almunia, etc.). If it sorts that problem out, the club can use the money on wages for better players. The club is currently trying to do this. Granted, it's mostly been unsuccessful, but Almunia has been released and Denilson has been sent on loan with Sao Paulo paying 100% of his wages. They're actively trying to get rid of Squillaci, Arshavin, Bendtner and Chamakh.

So let's not sit here and think we're in a crisis, or thing are currently not going well. They are. Slowly, yes, and the van Persie fiasco doesn't help, but I see more things to be positive about than negative. Certainly, I don't see a change in ownership to be the one, infallible solution to our problems.

Anyone who thinks Arsenal should be taking money from Alisher Usmanov or allowing him to have any say in the club really, really needs to read this:

The facts about Alisher Usmanov may make you change your mind…..

And this from Craig Murray, the U.K.'s former ambassador to Uzbekistan:

Alisher Usmanov is a Vicious Thug, Criminal, Racketeer, Heroin Trafficker