Arsenal: How to move forward?

by BarcaKizz Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:21 am

Hey guys, I don't post here much but I've always had an interest in Arsenal. The RVP issue has been huge. I wrote an article on it at GoldenFoot where I write.

Give it a read: http://goldenfoot.com/van-persie-packing-his-bags-the-last-straw-for-wenger/

Let me know what you think... I'd love to know your opinions on the core issue I discussed. How should Arsenal move forwards? Is Kroenke the problem or Wenger?

by Sri Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:28 am

For example, by no means is Mikel Arteta a bad player, but he is a 30 year-old who had spent the bulk of his career slaving away for a mid-table team, failing to earn a single cap for his country—hardly a player who is likely to carry Arsenal to its elusive fourteenth Premier League. Is Wenger’s time up?

How much of him have you seen in the last few years, and specifically, in his last season at Arsenal? Surely you have seen his contribution, atleast as statistics, before you wrote that?

And Arteta get a cap in the same generation of Xavi and Iniesta?

It must be noted there is no way of knowing what is really happening behind the scenes at the club. Is main-shareholder Stan Kroenke making adequate funds available to Wenger? He should be. After all, despite their abysmal record in recent years, Forbes ranks Arsenal as the fourth richest club in the world. Kroenke is swimming in money himself.

We have been following a self-sustaining model. We have two multi-gazillionaire owners but we don't want to pump in their money into building the team. We may be rich, but numbers are funny. We also have a new stadium which came at no small cost. We can't pump in money to repay that debt as a one off payment either. Upfront payments for that stadium got us tied down in pathetic long term commercial deals for kit and stadium naming, which we are looking to rectify in the coming years. Read Swiss Ramble for detailed analysis on our revenues, expenses and why being 'fourth richest' is a skewed view.

What Arsenal need is simple: available money to purchase the sort of players they have failed to buy for almost a decade. If Arsenal are to ‘move forward’, Kroenke must pump more money into the squad. Regardless, another season of failure could indeed signal the end of Wenger’s tenure at Arsenal FC.

Wrong. Recent survey, published a week back, showed a majority of supporters are behind AW. (Arsenal Supporters' Trust, AST, published this). We will not 'pump in' money and fall to the levels of oil clubs. We have a model which we believe in. What we need, is patience for the commercial side to stabilize, before we can generate our revenues to move forward. And that is the real problem, not AW or Kroenke or Gazidis or Usmanov.

Good attempt, but I feel your view is largely influenced by what has been presented to you in the media and newspapers. Unfortunately, its far from the truth of the situation. I have followed this club closely for close to ten years now, and this is my opinion. Maybe some others here would disagree.
:coffee:

by Woolwich Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:00 pm

Nice try but you need to look at Arsenal in different perspectives.

After a few months of lurking, decided to throw my view on this issue (RVP) and probably go back to lurking again.

The biggest pain is when Arsenal fans try the best to support the club (even with highest paid tickets), try to understand the situation at the club and none from the Arsenal board comes and tell us What is the 'real' vision for the Arsenal FC in NUMBERS?? Not just repeated bullshit from Mr.Gazidis.

I think, Arsenal fans have only one problem with Wenger and thats his loyalty to the board. He has done the impossible to reach the top four and go to a few major semis or finals, all that thanks to his extraordinary managerial skills, dealing with shortage on players and lack of funds. Being forced to sell for more and buy for less.

To summarize, Arsenal fans' voice is going to deaf ears.

I have read the letter from R&W carefully and as desperate as they are for whatever reasons to join the board, I think it would be good for the club if they finally put their noses there.

We need someone who can speak openly because we are tired of 'silence'.

I knew from the last season that RVP will leave if things dont change and I know Walcott will leave and Song will leave as well.

There is a plan to get rid of senior members of the squad. I dont know whats behind this plan.

But, sooner or later, all this frustration will be paid off, simply because Arsenal FC have the most loyal supporters in football.

If the current board have bad intentions (making profit for themselves), they will be exposed one day but Wenger should come out and tell us something because Wenger's legacy is bigger than anyone else in this club.

I understand RVP where hes coming from but he made a terrible mistake making that statement. You cannot tell the Arsenal FC in what direction they should go because you owe them your career.

I know he wants to win trophies but thats just an excuse of footballers today. Money comes first, trophies second, loyalty to clubs third or last.

The Arsenal FC can continue without RVP but supporters are more concerned if this trend continues in the future when the likes of Alex Song (an unknown player becoming a star in a few years) comes out and says to our Manager and the board YOU SHOULD DO THIS AND THAT.

I think, we are still in the right direction thanks to Arsene Wenger. Any other manager would quit this job (ala Benitez).

We need a change from above first.

1. Let Usmanov join the board.
2. Increase the wage bill to important players by getting rid of dead wood.
3. Fire Gazidis.
4. Invite supporters to have a seat in the board room.

All this should happen before 2014.

Adios.

by Sri Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:32 pm

You should stick around actually. Quite a few who share your views here. I personally feel its a little extreme though. :coffee:

by Raptorgunner Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:13 pm

Weather we like it or not the world of football is changing and for us to keep our main players is to pay them well. There is no loyalty in football and every year we have to rebuild because other teams know they can take any of our players with money.

I am sick of rebuilding and selling our players because other teams offer them better future, I am one of those who wants Usmanov on the board so we have at least a owner who is a fan of the team and has money coming out of his ass.

We dont have to go and spend 100m a year like other teams do all we have to do is hold on to our players.

Just think of how good our team would have been if we kept all our players?

Welcome Woolwich.

by Raptorgunner Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:46 pm

BarcaKizz wrote:Hey guys, I don't post here much but I've always had an interest in Arsenal. The RVP issue has been huge. I wrote an article on it at GoldenFoot where I write.

Give it a read: http://goldenfoot.com/van-persie-packing-his-bags-the-last-straw-for-wenger/

Let me know what you think... I'd love to know your opinions on the core issue I discussed. How should Arsenal move forwards? Is Kroenke the problem or Wenger?

Kroenke and Wenger are the problem, for them not getting relegated and selling captain after captain for huge profits is like a trophy. I love what wengfer has done for us but at times I think he is too loyal to the board and the players. Wenger tries to make everyone happy, this has to stop, no more fatherly love and he has to put his foot down and be the boss.

But I have to give the board some credit this time around, they were really prepared well for RVP leaving.

If RVP goes to city thats around 100m City have paid for our players and we still cant afford to spend over 20m for a top player. We could have had Mata but his price tag gave some board members heart attack. We sold Nasri for 25m but we cant spend 25m on Mata and the worst part is Mata is on 60k a week thats half of what we offer Nasri. rofl

I am over RVP, during his time at Arsenal he did not win us anything, we have lost some of the greatest players in history and we still have done well with out them.

by AnJl Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:05 pm

Enough of this media 'LETS SPEND MONEY AS IF IT RAINS' bull.

JUST because everyone else spends crap loads we have to stoop down to their levels?

JUST because players have no loyalty for the shirt they wear and whore themselves out to the highest bidder (the whole crux of being a whore), means we have to bend backwards to accommodate their idiocy?

Great, let go of your freaking morals and dignity go out the window.

Im proud of what Arsenal is doing and what they have accomplished with the budget they are on and I wouldnt want it any other way.

I want our youth players to come up, I want us to be able to root for a club that is debt free and have done things on their own terms and not taking loans like there is no tomorrow or dropping their dress for a billionaire who will use us as a toy.

You dont like it? Go join Spuds or City

by lenear1030 Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:05 pm

Woolwich wrote:Nice try but you need to look at Arsenal in different perspectives.

After a few months of lurking, decided to throw my view on this issue (RVP) and probably go back to lurking again.

The biggest pain is when Arsenal fans try the best to support the club (even with highest paid tickets), try to understand the situation at the club and none from the Arsenal board comes and tell us What is the 'real' vision for the Arsenal FC in NUMBERS?? Not just repeated bullshit from Mr.Gazidis.

I think, Arsenal fans have only one problem with Wenger and thats his loyalty to the board. He has done the impossible to reach the top four and go to a few major semis or finals, all that thanks to his extraordinary managerial skills, dealing with shortage on players and lack of funds. Being forced to sell for more and buy for less.

To summarize, Arsenal fans' voice is going to deaf ears.

I have read the letter from R&W carefully and as desperate as they are for whatever reasons to join the board, I think it would be good for the club if they finally put their noses there.

We need someone who can speak openly because we are tired of 'silence'.

I knew from the last season that RVP will leave if things dont change and I know Walcott will leave and Song will leave as well.

There is a plan to get rid of senior members of the squad. I dont know whats behind this plan.

But, sooner or later, all this frustration will be paid off, simply because Arsenal FC have the most loyal supporters in football.

If the current board have bad intentions (making profit for themselves), they will be exposed one day but Wenger should come out and tell us something because Wenger's legacy is bigger than anyone else in this club.

I understand RVP where hes coming from but he made a terrible mistake making that statement. You cannot tell the Arsenal FC in what direction they should go because you owe them your career.

I know he wants to win trophies but thats just an excuse of footballers today. Money comes first, trophies second, loyalty to clubs third or last.

The Arsenal FC can continue without RVP but supporters are more concerned if this trend continues in the future when the likes of Alex Song (an unknown player becoming a star in a few years) comes out and says to our Manager and the board YOU SHOULD DO THIS AND THAT.

I think, we are still in the right direction thanks to Arsene Wenger. Any other manager would quit this job (ala Benitez).

We need a change from above first.

1. Let Usmanov join the board.
2. Increase the wage bill to important players by getting rid of dead wood.
3. Fire Gazidis.
4. Invite supporters to have a seat in the board room.

All this should happen before 2014.

Adios.

by Raptorgunner Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:23 pm

When ever I hear about Arsenal debt it reminds of the documentaries about human trafficking, and when the pimp tells the girl it cost him 10k to bring the her over and when she makes the 10k he will let her go. We all know they never make that 10k to pay the pimps back. eco smile

by kiranr Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:13 pm

AnJl wrote:Enough of this media 'LETS SPEND MONEY AS IF IT RAINS' bull.

JUST because everyone else spends crap loads we have to stoop down to their levels?

JUST because players have no loyalty for the shirt they wear and whore themselves out to the highest bidder (the whole crux of being a whore), means we have to bend backwards to accommodate their idiocy?

Great, let go of your freaking morals and dignity go out the window.

Im proud of what Arsenal is doing and what they have accomplished with the budget they are on and I wouldnt want it any other way.

I want our youth players to come up, I want us to be able to root for a club that is debt free and have done things on their own terms and not taking loans like there is no tomorrow or dropping their dress for a billionaire who will use us as a toy.

You dont like it? Go join Spuds or City

Increasing your budget slightly to get one or two world class talent is not going to put you into debt.

Plus, if the debt is serviceable through Arsenal's own earnings, it is not a bad thing like you are portraying it right now.

by Mudcat Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:41 pm

I suppose my perspective is a bit different from some of you because I'm older and have seen all this before at one place or another. Allow me to address a few points in the article:

Simply put, at 28 Van Persie wants to win trophies, just like Fabregas and Nasri before him. What should worry Arsenal fans, however, is his statement that in meetings with the board it became “clear to me that we in many aspects disagree on the way Arsenal FC should move forward.”

What should worry Arsenal fans is the idea of a player being arrogant enough to think he should have any say about how a club is run. This is not Robin Van Persie's job. If he wants to leave, fine. Don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out, Mr. Van Persie. Players come and go. Clubs move on. It's not the end of the world. I always chuckle when fans react with panic every time a top players leaves their club. Pay no mind to the Dutch striker behind the curtain. He just wants to feed his ego with the biggest contract possible. Arsenal should not allow themselves to be blackmailed by Robin Van Persie or anyone else.

For a club of such prestige their performances and their ambition in recent years have been simply unacceptable.

Unacceptable would be dropping to mid-table or sinking toward the relegation zone. Finishing in a top four automatic Champions League qualifying spot every year is not unacceptable. The only other English club that has done that every season during the period in question is Manchester United. Every other club has finished outside the top four over the past seven years. Arsene Wenger has placed more value on staying in the top four over this time than winning the FA Cup or League Cup trophies. So do I.

Also, I think most modern fans misunderstand "ambition." What is ambitious about throwing money around? Manchester City was nothing until they were bought by a rich oil sheikh with more money than God who started throwing it around to satisfy his ego. That's not ambition. If you want an example of ambition, look at Swansea City. They were in League Two in 2005, but they built something and finished 11th in the Premier League just seven years later. That's ambition.

Van Persie’s decision comes at a critical point in time where it appeared the Gunners were beginning to indeed proactively ‘move forward’. Having finalised deals for Podolski and Olivier Giroud, while tailing French midfielder Yann M’Vila, it appeared Wenger could finally have the sort of squad capable of matching the likes of wealthy Manchester City. However, a Van Persie exit would send Arsenal back to the drawing board. Not only is he their captain and talisman, but the sort of world-class talent Arsenal lack.

Van Persie leaving changes nothing, really. It does not send Arsenal "back to the drawing board." He's one player. He can be replaced. Given his injury history, Arsenal would be rolling the dice depending too much on him this year anyway. It might actually be a perfect time for Arsenal to sell him while his value is high and use the money to bring in new players. Look, Arsenal fans were ready to jump off a bridge when the Gunners sold Overmars and Petit to Barcelona 12 years ago too. But things turned out pretty well.

Despite failure after failure, Wenger has failed to make any real investments in top-shelf players. Instead he has kept faith with youth and signed a smattering of ‘bargain talents’. For example, by no means is Mikel Arteta a bad player, but he is a 30 year-old who had spent the bulk of his career slaving away for a mid-table team, failing to earn a single cap for his country—hardly a player who is likely to carry Arsenal to its elusive fourteenth Premier League.

In one paragraph you've complained about buying so many young players and about buying an experienced player. Arteta was the same age at the start of last season as Van Persie will be at the start of this season. At £10 million (still a considerable sum, even in today's crazy market), Arteta would not be considered a "bargain talent" if he weren't such a damn good player. Besides, price is no guarantee. Just ask Liverpool about Andy Carroll or Chelsea about Fernando Torres. How have those big money deals worked out so far? By contrast, Newcastle paid £8 million for Pappis Cisse in January. From the time he first suited up for Newcastle, he was better than Van Persie, outscoring RVP 14-9. So I don't get too worked up over transfer fees. It's not the best way to judge talent.

Is Wenger’s time up?

You'd better hope it's not.

It must be noted there is no way of knowing what is really happening behind the scenes at the club. Is main-shareholder Stan Kroenke making adequate funds available to Wenger? He should be. After all, despite their abysmal record in recent years, Forbes ranks Arsenal as the fourth richest club in the world. Kroenke is swimming in money himself.

What Arsenal need is simple: available money to purchase the sort of players they have failed to buy for almost a decade. If Arsenal are to ‘move forward’, Kroenke must pump more money into the squad. Regardless, another season of failure could indeed signal the end of Wenger’s tenure at Arsenal FC.

Kroenke has only been the primary owner for one year. If the problems you perceive go back seven years, it can hardly be his fault. Why not actually wait and see what he does?

Arsenal seems to have a good business plan which fits in the FIFA's financial fair play rules. The club has been hindered a bit in recent years by stadium financing debt, but they've managed to remain a Champions League club even in the face of what could have been a lost season considering the injury crisis that struck nearly every significant player on the squad for some period of time. Van Persie deserves a lot of credit for carrying the team for much of the season, but he is not Superman. In fact, he slacked off late in the season and Arsenal struggled because they had become too dependent on him for goals. That's why it was nice to see Arsenal move so quickly for Podolski and Giroud this summer. Even if he changes his mind and signs a a new deal, Arsenal should not be relying on Van Persie so much this year. He still might be an injury waiting to happen and might only play 15 games for all we know. If he goes, Arsenal will probably get more than he's really worth in return, considering his injury history and the fact he will be 29 to start the season. That money can be used, at least in part, to bring in another, younger striker, and maybe to help fill other needs as well.

One thing I do hope is that Usmanov never gets his grubby hands on the club, or given a seat on the board or is allowed to invest beyond his stock shares. He spent six years in prison after being convicted of being a gangster and racketeer and he is alleged to have been involved in some very dirty business in the years since his release. I know a lot of fans look at Manchester City and Chelsea and are envious of their rich owners who treat the club like their personal plaything, but to me this is not something an Arsenal fan should want for this club. Arsenal stands for something more.

by Jay29 Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:32 pm

This seems like a typical "Arsenal are in crisis, so they must spend, spend, spend" article. There were plenty of these last season with Cesc and Nasri both leaving, and now that van Persie will probably leave they're coming out again.

The fact of the matter is, Arsenal made van Persie into one of the best strikers in the world. They provided him with the conditions to thrive by building the team around him. He was the main man. That resulted in one outstanding season, but in the long term that's detrimental to the team, because the more you depend on one player, the more you're going to suffer when that player doesn't play well.

This was proven at the tail end of last season. Van Persie stopped scoring, Arsenal started to struggle. The midfield was set-up in such a way to provide van Persie with goals, but not to score goals themselves, and our form suffered.

Arsenal don't need to spend big on a replacement, because that just continues the issue of relying on one player to score all the goals. What Arsenal needs to do, and what they will do, is compensate for the one player with two or three, and change the system slightly so that the wingers and midfielders can get into more goalscoring positions.

The signings of Podolski and Giroud show that we're going in this direction. Podolski will almost certainly play on the left wing, and he is unlike other players we've played there in recent years - Rosicky, Nasri and Arshavin. We tried to get a goalscorer on that side with Gervinho, but now we're trying Podolski; a player who is capable of scoring goals from the flank. We will have Giroud, too, who's link-up play is excellent and will be a big presence in the box. On paper, at least, there are goals in this team without van Persie.

That's how Arsenal will move forward. Not by throwing money around everywhere, but by signing the right players, and using those players in the right way to compensate for a loss. And there is no manager I would trust more to do this than Arsene Wenger.

It's interesting that you point out Arteta as an example of a "bargain talent not good enough to carry Arsenal forward", because many would say that he was one of the best midfielders in the league and Arsenal's record without him last season was abysmal. I fail to see how this signing could be used as an example of Arsenal's transfer policy being bad, because you would be hard pressed to find a better central midfielder in the Premier League.

With or without the money of a billionaire, Arsenal have the resources to secure the right players to strengthen the squad.

by RealGunner Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:52 pm

Mudcat

you sir, are brilliant.

Completely agree with you and jay

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:53 pm

Cisse is better than RVP though :coffee:

by Raptorgunner Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:58 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Cisse is better than RVP though

Only currnet Arsenal players are better than former Arsenal players.

Any Arsenal player>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Former Arsenal players> Cisse. Chaka

by Mudcat Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:54 pm

RealGunner wrote:Mudcat

you sir, are brilliant.

Completely agree with you and jay

Thank you sir. Much appreciated. Very Happy

And that was a terrific post by Jay. Thumbs up

by MJ Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:57 pm

No offense to you BarcaKizz but I stopped reading after you belittled Arteta which admittedly was 2/3rds into the article.

Mudcat and Jay hit the nail on the head. Thumbs up

by Sina Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:09 pm

+1 Mudcat&Jay

by Mudcat Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:56 pm

I just want to add some words of encouragement for BarcaKizz. I don't want you to think that I don't appreciate your efforts just because I disagreed with much of what you had to say. It was well-written and I want to encourage you to keep at it and write as much as you can. I, myself, was a professional sports writer for three American newspapers for more than 20 years, so I always enjoy reading opinion columns. But while I obviously don't know your process in writing this, I suspect you may have allowed yourself to be influenced a bit too much by the opinions of people on message boards such as these or on fan blogs. At least you seem to have reached the same conclusions as fans who panic a bit too easily when things don't go as they'd hoped. My advice would be to try to distance yourself from the fan mentality. Try to think everything through in as unbiased and logical a manner as possible before you begin to write your column. But never be afraid to be fearless and opinionated. You won't please everybody. You'll always be subject to criticism. But don't let that bother you or sway you. Just be yourself and always keep plugging along. Good luck!

by Sri Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:11 pm

@Mudcat:

No wonder I love the Arsenal section of GL, with the caliber of the fans here!

by Mudcat Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:02 am

srigooner wrote:@Mudcat: No wonder I love the Arsenal section of GL, with the caliber of the fans here!

In my short time here I'm finding that there are some terrific Arsenal fans who post here and are capable of engaging in an intelligent discussion. That's just what I was looking for when I signed up since I'm not exactly surrounded by people who share my love for the game or for Arsenal. It's really good to interact with all of you. Thumbs up

by RealGunner Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:04 am

Feeling is mutual Very Happy

btw how did u find this forum

by Mudcat Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:29 am

RealGunner wrote:Feeling is mutual

btw how did u find this forum

I actually did a google search for "best football forum" or "best soccer forum" or something like that. I think it was a question that had been asked in the Yahoo questions and maybe somewhere else. But somebody here had been proactive by offering a link to this site. I saw it in two or three different places, actually. I'm glad I checked it out and decided to sign up!

by Eman Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:55 am

One thing I find myself rarely doing in the off-season is commenting in this section, basically to avoid the doom and gloom that comes along with it. I do not want RvP to leave because he has been my favourite player here for years before he was our main man, but he's being a cock right now, and without him it's not like we don't have talent, so it could be worse. Will we be as strong if he leaves? Probably not, but he might stay, and tbh I felt before all this contract bullshit that we were one midfield signing away from being as good as any team in the league, so take away one man in one of our most strengthened position this summer and we'll still be pretty damned close.

I am also very happy with the way Wenger has conducted his business from the second we lost Cesc and Nasri up until now and how he dealt with a shitty situation. I trust in Wenger and our philosophy, and am confident that next year will be a good one, no matter what happens. In the past few years, whenever we've had a bad one we've followed it up with a better one. 2006-2007 wasn't great, but 2007-2008 was so close to being special. 2008-2009 was meh, but 2009-2010 could have been amazing if not for a poor ending. 2010-2011 had an awful start which doomed it, but 2011-2012 has the pattern on its side Wink

Now, outside of official transfers and preseason games, you will find me in the off-topic section until further notice :coffee:

by Wilson37 Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:45 am

Mudcat.. Excellent discussion and posts.. I really like your posts.. You really speak like a pro.. Keep posting...
Thumbs up

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