Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Divine Intervention wrote:He didn't invent anything new. Teams have been pressing like that for years. Ajax under Michels, the Dutch under MIchels, Barcelona youth teams have been pressing like that for years, but IU suppose Pep made them up. The short passing has been used by plent teams, such as Ukraine and Dinamo Kiev. The name Tiki taka was actually first used on the spanish NT in the euro 2008 tournament.

Pep Innovated nothing. The false striker was most notably used by Serie A legend Totti under Spaletti. It was also used by Ferguson in United's 08 team as well. But anything Barcelona do is innovation. They invented short passing after all. Before Pep teams you to bypass the whole pitch and just play GK to GK balls.

Divine Intervention wrote:He didn't invent anything new. Teams have been pressing like that for years. Ajax under Michels, the Dutch under MIchels, Barcelona youth teams have been pressing like that for years, but IU suppose Pep made them up. The short passing has been used by plent teams, such as Ukraine and Dinamo Kiev. The name Tiki taka was actually first used on the spanish NT in the euro 2008 tournament.

Pep Innovated nothing. The false striker was most notably used by Serie A legend Totti under Spaletti. It was also used by Ferguson in United's 08 team as well. But anything Barcelona do is innovation. They invented short passing after all. Before Pep teams you to bypass the whole pitch and just play GK to GK balls.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't think that innovating and inventing are mutually exclusive. Inventing is hard, the sport is over 100 years old, and for any "new" invention there's a precedent. This doesn't apply to only to football but to most things in life, from arts to sciences. One can innovate without inventing new concepts though, by making sure the end result created has personality and, through a particular combination of concepts, new style. Like I previously mentioned, the individual pieces may not be his but the sum of the total most definitely is.




I would put more effort into this post, since the subject interests me, but it's clear that this is a troll thread and no one but Barca fans are interested in having a legit conversation

jibers wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't think that innovating and inventing are mutually exclusive. Inventing is hard, the sport is over 100 years old, and for any "new" invention there's a precedent. This doesn't apply to only to football but to most things in life, from arts to sciences. One can innovate without inventing new concepts though, by making sure the end result created has personality and, through a particular combination of concepts, new style. Like I previously mentioned, the individual pieces may not be his but the sum of the total most definitely is.




I would put more effort into this post, since the subject interests me, but it's clear that this is a troll thread and no one but Barca fans are interested in having a legit conversation

lol, tbf I kinda agree with Divine, I don't think Pep really innovated anything per se, maybe as a whole as someone said, his taking of Michels and Cruyff's philosophy to the exttreme could count, but most of what Barcelona did, they had done before and were doing it at youth level. Is extreme the same thing as innovation. too hard to tell tbh.

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't think that innovating and inventing are mutually exclusive. Inventing is hard, the sport is over 100 years old, and for any "new" invention there's a precedent. This doesn't apply to only to football but to most things in life, from arts to sciences. One can innovate without inventing new concepts though, by making sure the end result created has personality and, through a particular combination of concepts, new style. Like I previously mentioned, the individual pieces may not be his but the sum of the total most definitely is.




I would put more effort into this post, since the subject interests me, but it's clear that this is a troll thread and no one but Barca fans are interested in having a legit conversation

lol, tbf I kinda agree with Divine, I don't think Pep really innovated anything per se, maybe as a whole as someone said, his taking of Michels and Cruyff's philosophy to the exttreme could count, but most of what Barcelona did, they had done before and were doing it at youth level. Is extreme the same thing as innovation. too hard to tell tbh.

On the false nine thing and pressing I agree.But what about the specific points I raised.
Has any other team played with so many midfielders as Barca did last season.Surely thats an innovation.
Guardiola's use of Busquets to switch seamlessly between formations during matches.I havent seen that either.

jibers wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't think that innovating and inventing are mutually exclusive. Inventing is hard, the sport is over 100 years old, and for any "new" invention there's a precedent. This doesn't apply to only to football but to most things in life, from arts to sciences. One can innovate without inventing new concepts though, by making sure the end result created has personality and, through a particular combination of concepts, new style. Like I previously mentioned, the individual pieces may not be his but the sum of the total most definitely is.




I would put more effort into this post, since the subject interests me, but it's clear that this is a troll thread and no one but Barca fans are interested in having a legit conversation

lol, tbf I kinda agree with Divine, I don't think Pep really innovated anything per se, maybe as a whole as someone said, his taking of Michels and Cruyff's philosophy to the exttreme could count, but most of what Barcelona did, they had done before and were doing it at youth level. Is extreme the same thing as innovation. too hard to tell tbh.

On the false nine thing and pressing I agree.But what about the specific points I raised.
Has any other team played with so many midfielders as Barca did last season.Surely thats an innovation.
Guardiola's use of Busquets to switch seamlessly between formations during matches.I havent seen that either.

hmmm. The midfilders point is a good one. But why is that an Innovation though. I think playing those MF is part of the reason Barcelona did not fare as well. I guess you could call it an innovation. Spain are doing a similar thing as well. With the busquets thing, Guardiola somtimes dropped very deep in Cruyff's formation, but nowhere to that ectent I suppose so that could count. Then again could you say that Fergie innovate the role Ronaldo is playing, the stinger (striker/winger), where a winger scores stupid amount of golas while not being the main focal point. It's similar to both th false 9 used by Spaletti and Pep, but different as Ronaldo came in from the wings. It's a tough question t answer tbh.

PS check your inbox

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't think that innovating and inventing are mutually exclusive. Inventing is hard, the sport is over 100 years old, and for any "new" invention there's a precedent. This doesn't apply to only to football but to most things in life, from arts to sciences. One can innovate without inventing new concepts though, by making sure the end result created has personality and, through a particular combination of concepts, new style. Like I previously mentioned, the individual pieces may not be his but the sum of the total most definitely is.




I would put more effort into this post, since the subject interests me, but it's clear that this is a troll thread and no one but Barca fans are interested in having a legit conversation

lol, tbf I kinda agree with Divine, I don't think Pep really innovated anything per se, maybe as a whole as someone said, his taking of Michels and Cruyff's philosophy to the exttreme could count, but most of what Barcelona did, they had done before and were doing it at youth level. Is extreme the same thing as innovation. too hard to tell tbh.

On the false nine thing and pressing I agree.But what about the specific points I raised.
Has any other team played with so many midfielders as Barca did last season.Surely thats an innovation.
Guardiola's use of Busquets to switch seamlessly between formations during matches.I havent seen that either.

hmmm. The midfilders point is a good one. But why is that an Innovation though. I think playing those MF is part of the reason Barcelona did not fare as well. I guess you could call it an innovation. Spain are doing a similar thing as well. With the busquets thing, Guardiola somtimes dropped very deep in Cruyff's formation, but nowhere to that ectent I suppose so that could count. Then again could you say that Fergie innovate the role Ronaldo is playing, the stinger (striker/winger), where a winger scores stupid amount of golas while not being the main focal point. It's similar to both th false 9 used by Spaletti and Pep, but different as Ronaldo came in from the wings. It's a tough question t answer tbh.

PS check your inbox

I did say that the tactic of playing with 7,8 midfielders was not particularly successful in winning trophies but does a new tactic necessarily have to result in trophies to call it an innovation.
I think it was a brave innovation overloading the defense and forward line with midfielders.It was revolutionary and something which ha never been tried before.
Pep playing in Cruyff's Barca.I have not seen millions of matches but of the many games I did see,dont think Pep played such a versatile and dynamic role.The formation was more or less fixed as 3-4-3.
On the Ferguson thing,by my understanding in CR's last season thr,United played a 4-6-0.Also I have never really thought of CR as a winger atleast not since his earliest days.He has always struck me as a goal scoring inside forward albeit taking goal scoring to a supreme extreme.

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't think that innovating and inventing are mutually exclusive. Inventing is hard, the sport is over 100 years old, and for any "new" invention there's a precedent. This doesn't apply to only to football but to most things in life, from arts to sciences. One can innovate without inventing new concepts though, by making sure the end result created has personality and, through a particular combination of concepts, new style. Like I previously mentioned, the individual pieces may not be his but the sum of the total most definitely is.




I would put more effort into this post, since the subject interests me, but it's clear that this is a troll thread and no one but Barca fans are interested in having a legit conversation

lol, tbf I kinda agree with Divine, I don't think Pep really innovated anything per se, maybe as a whole as someone said, his taking of Michels and Cruyff's philosophy to the exttreme could count, but most of what Barcelona did, they had done before and were doing it at youth level. Is extreme the same thing as innovation. too hard to tell tbh.

On the false nine thing and pressing I agree.But what about the specific points I raised.
Has any other team played with so many midfielders as Barca did last season.Surely thats an innovation.
Guardiola's use of Busquets to switch seamlessly between formations during matches.I havent seen that either.

hmmm. The midfilders point is a good one. But why is that an Innovation though. I think playing those MF is part of the reason Barcelona did not fare as well. I guess you could call it an innovation. Spain are doing a similar thing as well. With the busquets thing, Guardiola somtimes dropped very deep in Cruyff's formation, but nowhere to that ectent I suppose so that could count. Then again could you say that Fergie innovate the role Ronaldo is playing, the stinger (striker/winger), where a winger scores stupid amount of golas while not being the main focal point. It's similar to both th false 9 used by Spaletti and Pep, but different as Ronaldo came in from the wings. It's a tough question t answer tbh.

PS check your inbox

I did say that the tactic of playing with 7,8 midfielders was not particularly successful in winning trophies but does a new tactic necessarily have to result in trophies to call it an innovation.
I think it was a brave innovation overloading the defense and forward line with midfielders.It was revolutionary and something which ha never been tried before.
Pep playing in Cruyff's Barca.I have not seen millions of matches but of the many games I did see,dont think Pep played such a versatile and dynamic role.The formation was more or less fixed as 3-4-3.
On the Ferguson thing,by my understanding in CR's last season thr,United played a 4-6-0.Also I have never really thought of CR as a winger atleast not since his earliest days.He has always struck me as a goal scoring inside forward albeit taking goal scoring to a supreme extreme.

jibers wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't think that innovating and inventing are mutually exclusive. Inventing is hard, the sport is over 100 years old, and for any "new" invention there's a precedent. This doesn't apply to only to football but to most things in life, from arts to sciences. One can innovate without inventing new concepts though, by making sure the end result created has personality and, through a particular combination of concepts, new style. Like I previously mentioned, the individual pieces may not be his but the sum of the total most definitely is.




I would put more effort into this post, since the subject interests me, but it's clear that this is a troll thread and no one but Barca fans are interested in having a legit conversation

lol, tbf I kinda agree with Divine, I don't think Pep really innovated anything per se, maybe as a whole as someone said, his taking of Michels and Cruyff's philosophy to the exttreme could count, but most of what Barcelona did, they had done before and were doing it at youth level. Is extreme the same thing as innovation. too hard to tell tbh.

On the false nine thing and pressing I agree.But what about the specific points I raised.
Has any other team played with so many midfielders as Barca did last season.Surely thats an innovation.
Guardiola's use of Busquets to switch seamlessly between formations during matches.I havent seen that either.

hmmm. The midfilders point is a good one. But why is that an Innovation though. I think playing those MF is part of the reason Barcelona did not fare as well. I guess you could call it an innovation. Spain are doing a similar thing as well. With the busquets thing, Guardiola somtimes dropped very deep in Cruyff's formation, but nowhere to that ectent I suppose so that could count. Then again could you say that Fergie innovate the role Ronaldo is playing, the stinger (striker/winger), where a winger scores stupid amount of golas while not being the main focal point. It's similar to both th false 9 used by Spaletti and Pep, but different as Ronaldo came in from the wings. It's a tough question t answer tbh.

PS check your inbox

I did say that the tactic of playing with 7,8 midfielders was not particularly successful in winning trophies but does a new tactic necessarily have to result in trophies to call it an innovation.
I think it was a brave innovation overloading the defense and forward line with midfielders.It was revolutionary and something which ha never been tried before.
Pep playing in Cruyff's Barca.I have not seen millions of matches but of the many games I did see,dont think Pep played such a versatile and dynamic role.The formation was more or less fixed as 3-4-3.
On the Ferguson thing,by my understanding in CR's last season thr,United played a 4-6-0.Also I have never really thought of CR as a winger atleast not since his earliest days.He has always struck me as a goal scoring inside forward albeit taking goal scoring to a supreme extreme.

I

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't think that innovating and inventing are mutually exclusive. Inventing is hard, the sport is over 100 years old, and for any "new" invention there's a precedent. This doesn't apply to only to football but to most things in life, from arts to sciences. One can innovate without inventing new concepts though, by making sure the end result created has personality and, through a particular combination of concepts, new style. Like I previously mentioned, the individual pieces may not be his but the sum of the total most definitely is.




I would put more effort into this post, since the subject interests me, but it's clear that this is a troll thread and no one but Barca fans are interested in having a legit conversation

lol, tbf I kinda agree with Divine, I don't think Pep really innovated anything per se, maybe as a whole as someone said, his taking of Michels and Cruyff's philosophy to the exttreme could count, but most of what Barcelona did, they had done before and were doing it at youth level. Is extreme the same thing as innovation. too hard to tell tbh.

On the false nine thing and pressing I agree.But what about the specific points I raised.
Has any other team played with so many midfielders as Barca did last season.Surely thats an innovation.
Guardiola's use of Busquets to switch seamlessly between formations during matches.I havent seen that either.

hmmm. The midfilders point is a good one. But why is that an Innovation though. I think playing those MF is part of the reason Barcelona did not fare as well. I guess you could call it an innovation. Spain are doing a similar thing as well. With the busquets thing, Guardiola somtimes dropped very deep in Cruyff's formation, but nowhere to that ectent I suppose so that could count. Then again could you say that Fergie innovate the role Ronaldo is playing, the stinger (striker/winger), where a winger scores stupid amount of golas while not being the main focal point. It's similar to both th false 9 used by Spaletti and Pep, but different as Ronaldo came in from the wings. It's a tough question t answer tbh.

PS check your inbox

I did say that the tactic of playing with 7,8 midfielders was not particularly successful in winning trophies but does a new tactic necessarily have to result in trophies to call it an innovation.
I think it was a brave innovation overloading the defense and forward line with midfielders.It was revolutionary and something which ha never been tried before.
Pep playing in Cruyff's Barca.I have not seen millions of matches but of the many games I did see,dont think Pep played such a versatile and dynamic role.The formation was more or less fixed as 3-4-3.
On the Ferguson thing,by my understanding in CR's last season thr,United played a 4-6-0.Also I have never really thought of CR as a winger atleast not since his earliest days.He has always struck me as a goal scoring inside forward albeit taking goal scoring to a supreme extreme.

Hmm good points. Well woud you say it was a tactical innovation? I mean Del Bosque ias actually playing with no forwards whereas Barca played with Messi. I'm not trying to nit pick but you see what I mean? Yea I think we can class that as soime form of innovation. What would you call what VDB did yesterday then?

yea pep was nowhere near as dynamic and his role was more similar to Pirlos for Milanand Juve tbh. He played a lot of deep balls in front of the striker.

In 08 both Rooney and tevez creted space similar to the way that Villa and Pedro created space fro Messi in 09, just that he was usually on the right and started from much deeper postions. In 09 he was used as a CF in quite a few games (mostly in the CL)

Adit wrote:@ Alex Janosik

Yes ,Busquets droping back and forth and forming different numbers at midfield and Defense has been used before.

Brazil 2002 world cup winning team, Edmilson dropped back and forth to form a 5 at back while defending and as a Anchor man while Attacking.

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't think that innovating and inventing are mutually exclusive. Inventing is hard, the sport is over 100 years old, and for any "new" invention there's a precedent. This doesn't apply to only to football but to most things in life, from arts to sciences. One can innovate without inventing new concepts though, by making sure the end result created has personality and, through a particular combination of concepts, new style. Like I previously mentioned, the individual pieces may not be his but the sum of the total most definitely is.




I would put more effort into this post, since the subject interests me, but it's clear that this is a troll thread and no one but Barca fans are interested in having a legit conversation

lol, tbf I kinda agree with Divine, I don't think Pep really innovated anything per se, maybe as a whole as someone said, his taking of Michels and Cruyff's philosophy to the exttreme could count, but most of what Barcelona did, they had done before and were doing it at youth level. Is extreme the same thing as innovation. too hard to tell tbh.

On the false nine thing and pressing I agree.But what about the specific points I raised.
Has any other team played with so many midfielders as Barca did last season.Surely thats an innovation.
Guardiola's use of Busquets to switch seamlessly between formations during matches.I havent seen that either.

hmmm. The midfilders point is a good one. But why is that an Innovation though. I think playing those MF is part of the reason Barcelona did not fare as well. I guess you could call it an innovation. Spain are doing a similar thing as well. With the busquets thing, Guardiola somtimes dropped very deep in Cruyff's formation, but nowhere to that ectent I suppose so that could count. Then again could you say that Fergie innovate the role Ronaldo is playing, the stinger (striker/winger), where a winger scores stupid amount of golas while not being the main focal point. It's similar to both th false 9 used by Spaletti and Pep, but different as Ronaldo came in from the wings. It's a tough question t answer tbh.

PS check your inbox

I did say that the tactic of playing with 7,8 midfielders was not particularly successful in winning trophies but does a new tactic necessarily have to result in trophies to call it an innovation.
I think it was a brave innovation overloading the defense and forward line with midfielders.It was revolutionary and something which ha never been tried before.
Pep playing in Cruyff's Barca.I have not seen millions of matches but of the many games I did see,dont think Pep played such a versatile and dynamic role.The formation was more or less fixed as 3-4-3.
On the Ferguson thing,by my understanding in CR's last season thr,United played a 4-6-0.Also I have never really thought of CR as a winger atleast not since his earliest days.He has always struck me as a goal scoring inside forward albeit taking goal scoring to a supreme extreme.

Tifoso Romanista wrote:"Guys like [Fabio] Capello and [Jose] Mourinho are hailed as geniuses because they win. Well, they win because they have the best players, not because of what they do. I could put my dead grandfather in charge of their teams and they would still win."

free_cat wrote:He obviously did.

For instances, many teams in the past have started building from the back, but none have been as fundamentalist as Pep's Barça.

An example of this, was the 2009 Cup final, were Barça passed from the Back with Athletic pressin on our area, passing the ball to the CB who were almost on the byline outside the box. I'm sure this was done for the first time by Pep's Barça.

IMO, Pepe generally invented when it comes to tactics for the build up. I don't think any other team has played with 2 open CB, 2 FB wide and pushing up when building from the back before Pep. Also, the DM coming deeper and then forming a 3 man backline for the build up I think it's Pep's invention.

It is also possible, that Pep invented the movement of our wing forwards, who move from wide to center, drop deep, wide again, cut in a diagonal... depending on the stage of play, but in this case I'm not sure and it well may have been done before.

Obviously, posession, pressing , fake 9, attacking football... all this has been done before, but Pep took it into another level.

SuperMAG wrote:I think this is their perminant tactic transformation to the New and improved "Barca Transformer Tactic".

Defending will be done as a 4-3-3 with the look of 4-6-0.
Attacking will be done as 3-4-3.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Fabio Capello: "In spite of starting young Guardiola did something unique: he invented. In football that's very hard. The ability to recover the ball in the high zone with the pressure of his attacking players didn't exist before, or at least not on such a perfect way."