Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

+21
Tifoso Romanista
Adit
Flick
Ganso
Divine Intervention
BarcaLearning
Onyx
alexjanosik
danyjr
free_cat
Zealous
billionmillion
billy_gr
Potential
nasir6371
Dnmac4
BarrileteCosmico
paperbackwriter
guest7
Dante
jibers
25 posters

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by jibers Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:47 pm

Was reading that locked thread of Xavi commenting Mourinho wont be remembered as a innovative manager etc., was wondering, do u all agree? That Mourinho is just good at man management and current tactics abe to combine everything into a winning formula and team, and not able to invent or bring some new ideas?

Did Pep Guardiola do something at that level?
jibers
jibers
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Manchester United
Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-06-06

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by Dante Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:51 pm

made me laugh , thank you .
Dante
Dante
Fan Favorite
Fan Favorite

Club Supported : AC Milan
Posts : 5460
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by guest7 Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:51 pm

He introduced Ovrebo if that's what you're looking for..
guest7
guest7
Fan Favorite
Fan Favorite

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 8275
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by Dante Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:53 pm

Pep Time .
Dante
Dante
Fan Favorite
Fan Favorite

Club Supported : AC Milan
Posts : 5460
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by paperbackwriter Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:54 pm

He simply combined Rijkards Barcelona tactics with Aragones Spain tactics...
paperbackwriter
paperbackwriter
Starlet
Starlet

Posts : 559
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 36

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:11 pm

Well first off let's say that there is no "inventing" in football, only recycling and improving. On one hand you can argue that Pep only applied Cruyff's concepts to the modern game, who he himself only applied Rinus Michael's concepts, who he applied Jack Reynold's concepts, who he applied concepts he saw from the Hungary and River Plate teams of the 1950s, and so on. So some people might try to discredit Guardiola saying he didn't come up with these concepts himself, therefore not "revolutionizing" the sport or bringing new ideas.

I disagree, Guardiola's style was quite counter-cultural at the time he started managing. He instituted a system that depended on possession, dynamic players, high pressing, "half-touch" passing, and a lot of patience. The components of this system may not be Guardiola's invention, but the combined result most definitely is and it will go down in football history as a remarkable team. As a result, he has been able to bring back technical midfielders back to the forefront to the public eye, turn a second best player in the world into the first GOAT of the new century, and his team is a constant reminder that athleticism and strength are only second to skill and technique in football, as it should be. Perhaps most importantly of all though: he won 6/6 titles in his first year, becoming the first club to ever do so, and 14/19 he competed for. On that winning strike alone, he'll go down in history.

Adding on to that Guardiola has always been game for trying new tactical approaches, such as converting Sergio Busquets into a sweeper for some games. This role has now been copied by Bilbao, who have used Iturraspe there and Luis Enrique, who has used DDR there.


Last edited by BarrileteCosmico on Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
BarrileteCosmico
BarrileteCosmico
Admin
Admin

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 28143
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by jibers Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:12 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Well first off let's say that there is no "inventing" in football, only recycling and improving. On one hand you can argue that Pep only applied Cruyff's concepts to the modern game, who he himself only applied Rinus Michael's concepts, who he applied Jack Reynold's concepts, who he applied concepts he saw from the Hungary and River Plate teams of the 1950s, and so on. So some people might try to discredit Guardiola saying he didn't come up with these concepts himself, therefore not "revolutionizing" the sport or bringing new ideas.

I disagree, Guardiola's style was quite counter-cultural at the time he started managing. He instituted a system that depended on possession, dynamic players, high pressing, "half-touch" passing, and a lot of patience. The components of this system may not be Guardiola's invention, but the combined result most definitely is and it will go down in football history as a remarkable team. As a result, he has been able to bring back technical midfielders back to the forefront to the public eye, turn a second best player in the world into the first GOAT of the new century, and his team is a constant reminder that athleticism and strength are only second to skill and technique in football, as it should be. Perhaps most importantly of all though: he won 6/6 titles in his first year, becoming the first club to ever do so, and 14/19 he competed for. On that winning strike alone, he'll go down in history.

Adding on to that Guardiola has always been game for trying new tactical approaches, such as converting Sergio Busquets into a libero for some games. This role has now been copied by Bilbao, who have used Iturraspe there and Luis Enrique, who has used DDR there.

long story short...no...
jibers
jibers
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Manchester United
Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-06-06

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:15 pm

You seem to have missed my main point: "The components of this system may not be Guardiola's invention, but the combined result most definitely is."
BarrileteCosmico
BarrileteCosmico
Admin
Admin

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 28143
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by jibers Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:19 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:You seem to have missed my main point: "The components of this system may not be Guardiola's invention, but the combined result most definitely is."

again....no...
jibers
jibers
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Manchester United
Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-06-06

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:25 pm

Mind actually replying with more than a one word answer?
BarrileteCosmico
BarrileteCosmico
Admin
Admin

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 28143
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by jibers Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:30 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Mind actually replying with more than a one word answer?

those were two :coffee:
jibers
jibers
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Manchester United
Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-06-06

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by Dnmac4 Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:48 pm

It's a hard question to answer as football has been played for such a long time by so many different teams, countries and cultures that one could argue anything you say Pep invented has been done before.

For people saying he just took Rijkaard system and VDB and put them together is just a lazy and uninformed answer.

I for one have never seen anyone play such a dangerously high line and open style of football and concede very few goals. I wont dig for the stats but I believe in La Liga almost every year he was there they let up the least amount of goals.

And that is with a very average keeper IMO.

In fact it wasn't until Pep got to Barca that Spain started dominating like they have been so I would say it's the opposite as VDB used Pep's players and system to break through and start winning and becoming the one of the best national teams in history just like Barca being one of the best club teams in history during Pep's reign.

I mean look at today's game vs Italy and that's all the proof you need. 6 midfielders no strikers, a high line and overlapping full backs.

I will say this I have never seen any coach or team value keeping the ball like Pep and Barca and I don't think some of there Posession numbers will be challenged again.

The striker less formation has been done before but not to the success as he did it. While combining that with basically playing midfielders a CB's as well and trying to just put midfielders all over the pitch was something that was very different.

So IMO yes he is an inventive manager. HE perfected other tactics and combined some to make the way Barca plays very unique and effective. He also started the trend of playing a team full of midgets and valuing skill over speed and strength which was not common anywhere before. And again playing with such physically limited players and letting up very little goals is something I have never seen, the theory always was you need strength and height somewhere on the field and he proved there's other ways to skin a cat.

I also have never seen teams react to the way they played like teams did with this Barca team. Teams made up of millions of dollars and superstars parking the bus to IMO un heard of levels. IT was very rare to see teams outside of Spain in the CL go head to head with them or at least try and play some sort of an open game, I know this has been done to teams in the past but not to the level teams made up of such good players did it to Barca.
Dnmac4
Dnmac4
First Team
First Team

Posts : 2911
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by nasir6371 Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:55 pm

Reverse Christmas Tree formation

/thread
nasir6371
nasir6371
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Manchester City
Posts : 2167
Join date : 2012-04-11

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by Potential Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:55 pm

nasir6371 wrote:Reverse Christmas Tree formation

/thread

:facepalm: It was a 3-3-4!
Potential
Potential
Banned (Permanent)

Club Supported : Inter Milan
Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-06-09

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by billy_gr Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:44 am

re-introduced Spaleti's tactics in Roma.
billy_gr
billy_gr
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 3453
Join date : 2011-06-29
Age : 38

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by billionmillion Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:40 am

invented most successful false 9
billionmillion
billionmillion
Banned (Permanent)

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 2440
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 38

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by Zealous Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:10 am

I thought it was well documented that he used Bielsa's ideas and built on that.
Zealous
Zealous
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Sao Paulo
Posts : 16098
Join date : 2011-08-01

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by free_cat Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:36 am

He obviously did.

For instances, many teams in the past have started building from the back, but none have been as fundamentalist as Pep's Barça.

An example of this, was the 2009 Cup final, were Barça passed from the Back with Athletic pressin on our area, passing the ball to the CB who were almost on the byline outside the box. I'm sure this was done for the first time by Pep's Barça.

IMO, Pepe generally invented when it comes to tactics for the build up. I don't think any other team has played with 2 open CB, 2 FB wide and pushing up when building from the back before Pep. Also, the DM coming deeper and then forming a 3 man backline for the build up I think it's Pep's invention.

It is also possible, that Pep invented the movement of our wing forwards, who move from wide to center, drop deep, wide again, cut in a diagonal... depending on the stage of play, but in this case I'm not sure and it well may have been done before.

Obviously, posession, pressing , fake 9, attacking football... all this has been done before, but Pep took it into another level.
free_cat
free_cat
Fan Favorite
Fan Favorite

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 8546
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by Dante Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:43 am

My best guess is the high pressing . There was pressing and even some high pressing before Guardiola , but not this kind . They seem like their mother's life depends on if they regain the ball in the next minute , it's shocking how much and effectively they have been pressing these years.

It's the best tactical , cohesive and collective high pressing the game has ever seen , and the most outrageous fact is that players like Xavi , Iniesta , Messi , basicaly any technical player at Barcelona excelled at it ,

unless you know , Ibrahimovic , doesn't know what pressing means .

I've not quite seen anything like it before ,not in quality nor in quantity , and especialy that high and stretched. Noone has ever been even close .
Dante
Dante
Fan Favorite
Fan Favorite

Club Supported : AC Milan
Posts : 5460
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by danyjr Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:16 pm

jibers wrote:long story short...no...
So you ask a question from a member who frankly gave you a very comprehensive answer only to give a cheap reply? Believe me, it is extremely difficult to win the 'Most Retarded Comment on Goal Legacy' but you sir deserve it this time.

On topic: No, Guardiola didn't invent anything. Of course, his effect on the Barcelona team, the trophies they won and the way they played was significant however:

1- These methods are combination and modernisation of previous methods such as Total Football, influenced on the Catalan club by the likes of Cruyff, Raxach et al. The trophies that Guardiola won are not only due to his philosophies and efforts, but for those which Barcelona, as a football club have been planning and nurturing for decades.

2- To play a certain type of football, you need certain players at your disposal. Do you think Guardiola would have succeeded with the same methods if he was managing Stoke City?

Also I don't buy the 'Barcelona's way is the correct way to play football'. There is no correct way to play football. Did anyone miss watching Chelsea of 2012 and Inter of 2010 winning against this very team using completely different styles and tactics? For me the closest thing to being correct is to play is to play to your players' strengths.
danyjr
danyjr
Fan Favorite
Fan Favorite

Club Supported : Boca Juniors
Posts : 8400
Join date : 2012-02-24

http://www.tikitakatoom.ml

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by alexjanosik Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:43 pm

To answer the question,2 things come to mind which he tried to implement this season,although with limited success.Actually make that 3.
First is the playing with 7,8 midfielders in the same side.I cant think of another side in the history of the game that played with so many midfielders at one time.He basically overloaded the defense and forward line with midfielders.
Second innovation I can think of is his interpretation of 3 at the back.
I might be wrong on this but I cant think of any other side playing a back 3 composed of not even a single regular CB.At times this season we played a converted CM as the sweeper and fullbacks as the other 2 in a back 3.I havent seen such a bold variation before.I might be wrong though.
The third innovation is his use of Busquets to seamlessly and quickly switch between formations during matches.The classic example is the 3-1 Bernabeau Clasico,where Busquets played a hybrid CB,sweeper,CM,DM role and the team alternated between 3-4-3,4-3-3,4-4-2 throughout the match.
Though I have the confess that this was made possible entirely due to the genius and awareness of Busquets.Pep couldnt have done it with any other player.Just like Michels needed the genius of Cruyff to implement Total Football.
So thats 3 innovations that I can think of although the second one might have been done before.

This without even mentioning Pep implementing his interpretation of the Cruyff brand of football,implementing pressing at a never before seen level, making the false nine famous again by playing Messi there and taking possession based attacking football to its glorious extreme.

alexjanosik
First Team
First Team

Posts : 3236
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by Onyx Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:10 pm

He introduced a few and combined/improved upon other ideas, therefore he did.

Onyx
Forum Legend
Forum Legend

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 40110
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by BarcaLearning Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:44 pm

Loool not sure to take this thread seriously or not....meh Laughing

Although good responses above.... I think he did, or at the very least, he took football to an even higher level. The pressing in much he really perfected, how many of the top teams today u see do it? MAny teams have been influenced by Barca and try to play some of their style now, or learn some aspects. I think a few years back b4 Pep, we didnt have so many teams pressing so high so hard so collectively thats for sure.

It will be interesting to see how Pep progresses in the future, in his future career, if he sticks to his style or will he evolve and adapt and play other styles or variations if he manages another club or something....
BarcaLearning
BarcaLearning
Fan Favorite
Fan Favorite

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 8080
Join date : 2011-12-08

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by Divine Intervention Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:39 pm

He didn't invent anything new. Teams have been pressing like that for years. Ajax under Michels, the Dutch under MIchels, Barcelona youth teams have been pressing like that for years, but IU suppose Pep made them up. The short passing has been used by plent teams, such as Ukraine and Dinamo Kiev. The name Tiki taka was actually first used on the spanish NT in the euro 2008 tournament.

Pep Innovated nothing. The false striker was most notably used by Serie A legend Totti under Spaletti. It was also used by Ferguson in United's 08 team as well. But anything Barcelona do is innovation. They invented short passing after all. Before Pep teams you to bypass the whole pitch and just play GK to GK balls. :facepalm:
Divine Intervention
Divine Intervention
Hot Prospect
Hot Prospect

Club Supported : Boca Juniors
Posts : 287
Join date : 2011-10-10

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by jibers Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:01 pm

Divine Intervention wrote:He didn't invent anything new. Teams have been pressing like that for years. Ajax under Michels, the Dutch under MIchels, Barcelona youth teams have been pressing like that for years, but IU suppose Pep made them up. The short passing has been used by plent teams, such as Ukraine and Dinamo Kiev. The name Tiki taka was actually first used on the spanish NT in the euro 2008 tournament.

Pep Innovated nothing. The false striker was most notably used by Serie A legend Totti under Spaletti. It was also used by Ferguson in United's 08 team as well. But anything Barcelona do is innovation. They invented short passing after all. Before Pep teams you to bypass the whole pitch and just play GK to GK balls. :facepalm:

LMFAOOOOOOOO

:bow:
jibers
jibers
World Class Contributor
World Class Contributor

Club Supported : Manchester United
Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-06-06

Back to top Go down

Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics? Empty Re: Did Pep Guardiola introduce new football concepts/tactics?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum