Why are Madrid supposedly better than everyone besides Barca?

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Post by kiranr Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:04 am

Le Samourai wrote:

May the gossip of the 4 hour long Indian movie be with you.

Stereotype is strong in you, i see.

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Post by Le Samourai Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:19 am

kiranr wrote:
Le Samourai wrote:

May the gossip of the 4 hour long Indian movie be with you.

Stereotype is strong in you, i see.
My grandparents have forced me to watch these without subtitles as a child.

The whole thing just seems like a random series of dances and wanna be romeo and Juliet stuff.

Satayajit Ray turns in his grave.



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Post by Twoism Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:05 am

Le Samourai wrote:
kiranr wrote:
Le Samourai wrote:

May the gossip of the 4 hour long Indian movie be with you.

Stereotype is strong in you, i see.
My grandparents have forced me to watch these without subtitles as a child.

The whole thing just seems like a random series of dances and wanna be romeo and Juliet stuff.

Satayajit Ray turns in his grave.




:bow:
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Post by Jack Daniels Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:19 am

kiranr wrote:
What a make or break week for Madrid. If they get through Barcelona and Bayern, they are one of the best, maybe even the best. If not, then there will be comment like even Napoli are better. I dont want to be a Madrid fan right now.
If you only know how nervous I'am in this coming week. lol

I expect to forget something important to do this week just because of the matches coming up lol
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Post by Arquitecto Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:42 am

I like this thread. Mole brings up some great points and writes with fiery conviction. So you have my respect here.

Its a tricky situation though.

Lets take how people measure superiority over one club based on club ranking in the league and how they fare in europe. Its hard to quantify for the reasons following:

1. Bayern are 2nd to Dortmund who failed hard in Europe.
2. But Madrid are atop Barca in the league as the latter is the best team in the world
3. United and City are top of the EPL yet were beaten by Sporting and Bilbao respectively who aren't top in their league.

So lets take this logic out of the window completely. (This is not directed towards you obviously)




I base, my judgement on teams on a complete tactical, collective and systematic basis along with how they deal with certain situations and their respective capability.

In this respect, I rate Madrid considerably higher than Bayern, who have been inconsistent in some areas which pertains to their lack of tactical sense and variation, adaptability in situations, and simply the visual judgement of the team simply by watching them.

Comparing the two, I rate Madrid higher as probably higher than they should be, yet Bayern haven't impressed me as Madrid have this season.

Then again, there is the argument that Madrid only fare well against scrubs, but this isn't entirely true as judging by their demolition of the elite Liga clubs, bar Barca. This can also be counter-acted by the argument that teams simply seem to afraid to play them, and when they act on the slightest bit of pressure, Madrid falter. The latter I agree with.

But...the same can go for Bayern who do it in an inferior league with teams, admittedly not as good as Liga teams.

Just putting everything on the table here and not making any judgments.

I can go on about the flaws I noticed in Madrid along with how I underestimated Bayern in certain situations.

But I will only state that I rate Madrid higher than Bayern based on the traits above along with the fact that I would rather have my team face Bayern than Madrid simply out of fear in facing Madrid, regardless of a comparison of how my teams would exploit weaknesses and use its strengths.

But, the advantage must go to Madrid based on their league dominance along with it being better than the BL. Yet are they better by a large margin? Absolutely not.

In the end, many of these comparisons are not quantifiable in the sense to provide justification to some opinions.

Off the record and just for fun: My top teams

1. Barca
2. Madrid
3. Bayern
4.United
5.Milan




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Post by rwo power Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:09 am

I think the problem comes from the attempt to think in absolute values. The problem is - in football there are no absolute values, the better team in a match-up is only determined by the temporary form on the pitch in right that match. If it were differently, one would only have to copare squads and determine a league or cup winner by that.

The beauty in football is that there are always allegedly weaker teams punching about their weight and allegedly stronger teams bottling it. IMO the difference between BL and La Liga is that in the BL more teams punch over their weight when playing against bigger teams than it is the case in La Liga, as they always believe they can beat anyone. The problem of a team like Dortmund was that they didn't have that belief yet in the CL and so they were soundly defeated. Next CL run they will be better as they know they can beat heavy-weights like Bayern easily, so they don't need to fear other teams either. IMO it is mainly a mentality question, and the paper quality doesn't say anything. (IMO Leverkusen were soundly beaten by Barca because they didn't believe in a chance from the start, so they just rolled over without even attempting to fight back, while in the BL they defeated Bayern because they know everybody just can beat everybody there, regardless of league position).
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Post by BarcaLearning Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:18 pm

We are talking about them considered second best team during the past 2 or so years though right? B4 that, probably Man U were more widely considered. But Real have won the CL like 3 times in the late 90s early 2000s hence the reputation, and club history, star quality etc... so generally considered one of the top teams inEurope, but I think its really the last 1.5 years or so's display really deserves this second best label Twisted Evil
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:25 pm

BhritanniaBhlue wrote:Well they didn't lose to Basel (Man United)
They didn't choke in the group stages (City)
They're actually leading their league (Bayern/Chelsea/Milan)
They're stocked with talent

etc

mystery solved

1. the same Man Utd that got to 3 finals in previous 4 years? 1 shit year doesnt make you scrubs just like 1 semi final in going on a decade for Real doesnt make them goat.

2. City are not even in the discussion of the best so i dont know where your going with that.

3. Leading your league means nothing quite frankly if you cant beat any elite team in europe in the last decade and i dont if you noticed but it is possible Barca can overtake them

4. Talent means f*ck all, where was talent when City lost to Napoli, where was talent when Inter beat Barca, where was talent when Figo, Beckham, Zidane, Raul, Ronaldo etc etc failed to win the CL?

As for your post Arq, a quality response and one i will respond to in kind later today i am on my lunch break atm and dont really have the time currently to respond to a post with so many key points which need responses.

Key Point: I never said Madrid were below the likes of Bayern, Milan, Utd etc etc i questioned whether they are clearly above them like some of pointed out.

Also this is not a kneejerk, last nights result has nothing to do with it this is something i have felt for a very long time that how could a team be clearly above the chasing pack without proving it in Europe.....

Last nights result just further solidify's my point but this thread has nothing to do with last nights result.


Last edited by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by che Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:27 pm

i'm pretty confident madrid would lead literally any other league in the world, their forward quality is overwhelming for all the midtable-relegation teams, that's what gives you points

when it comes to meeting the big boys though... probably overconfidence from playing the dross in la liga week in week out
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Post by Brady2Moss Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:33 pm

Madrid are just flat track bullies, they are certainly not the 2nd best team in the world...when the going gets tough for Madrid, the handbags start coming out. Laughing

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Post by Swanhends Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:59 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:1. the same Man Utd that got to 3 finals in previous 4 years? 1 shit year doesnt make you scrubs just like 1 semi final in going on a decade for Real doesnt make them goat.

Who said anything about them being scrubs? I certainly didn't...You just can't be the 2nd best team in the world when you don't make it out of the CL groups and then you get really roughed up by a Europa League side in the round of 16...

mole wrote:2. City are not even in the discussion of the best so i dont know where your going with that.

So who the hell is in the discussion then? Man Utd, Milan, Bayern? You created a really angry-toned thread all because you think Madrid should be considered the 3rd or 4th best team in the world instead of the 2nd? So much for materiality

Mole wrote:3. Leading your league means nothing quite frankly if you cant beat any elite team in europe in the last decade and i dont if you noticed but it is possible Barca can overtake them

What the hell do Madrid's struggles in the CL in the last decade have to do with anything? Is this the same Madrid side that had all those problems? No? So then who the hell cares? What relevancy does that have?

Also even if Barca DID overtake them, clearly Barca is the consensus number one in the world, so that would not change my argument for them being number #2 at all...

mole wrote:Also this is not a kneejerk, last nights result has nothing to do with it this is something i have felt for a very long time that how could a team be clearly above the chasing pack without proving it in Europe.....

What exactly did Man United "prove" in Europe by failing to get out of a group with Basel, Benfica, and Otelulz Gulati, and then getting subsequently hammered by Bilbao?

With the amount of squad turnover year-in year-out with these teams it is totally meaningless to use past years european results as evidence to support a current subjective ranking...

As I said, Madrid are considered the best because they are stocked with talent, they are still alive in the CL, and they are topping their league (which includes the best team in the world)....How many other teams in the world can say that?

None? So then until one of those things changes, why should we consider any other team better? Because they lost to Lyon or Liverpool or other teams in the CL in past years?

Thats totally asinine...
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Post by Zealous Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:17 pm

Mole is a Barca fan when Madrid lose and a Newcastle fan when Madrid win. :coffee:

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Post by Pedram Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:29 pm

BhritanniaBhlue wrote:Well they didn't lose to Basel (Man United)
They didn't choke in the group stages (City)
They're actually leading their league (Bayern/Chelsea/Milan)
They're stocked with talent

etc

mystery solved

Shhh, logic has no place here.
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Post by billionmillion Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:35 pm

rwo power wrote:I think the problem comes from the attempt to think in absolute values. The problem is - in football there are no absolute values, the better team in a match-up is only determined by the temporary form on the pitch in right that match. If it were differently, one would only have to copare squads and determine a league or cup winner by that.

The beauty in football is that there are always allegedly weaker teams punching about their weight and allegedly stronger teams bottling it. IMO the difference between BL and La Liga is that in the BL more teams punch over their weight when playing against bigger teams than it is the case in La Liga, as they always believe they can beat anyone. The problem of a team like Dortmund was that they didn't have that belief yet in the CL and so they were soundly defeated. Next CL run they will be better as they know they can beat heavy-weights like Bayern easily, so they don't need to fear other teams either. IMO it is mainly a mentality question, and the paper quality doesn't say anything. (IMO Leverkusen were soundly beaten by Barca because they didn't believe in a chance from the start, so they just rolled over without even attempting to fight back, while in the BL they defeated Bayern because they know everybody just can beat everybody there, regardless of league position).
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Post by Brady2Moss Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:40 pm

Pedram wrote:
BhritanniaBhlue wrote:Well they didn't lose to Basel (Man United)
They didn't choke in the group stages (City)
They're actually leading their league (Bayern/Chelsea/Milan)
They're stocked with talent

etc

mystery solved

Shhh, logic has no place here.

lol what logic? This was Madrid's first BIG match in the CL, and unsurprisingly, they crumbled under pressure like a sack of potatoes. Nothing new there, Real Madrid is so overrated as their manager. Gone are the days of playing Lyon, Apoel etc, welcome to the big league! Very Happy

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Post by Zealous Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:44 pm

The tie isn't over genius.
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Post by Senor Penguin Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:51 pm

Zealous wrote:The tie isn't over genius.
Not to mention the circumstances. Barca are waiting.

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Post by Lord Hades Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:41 pm

i thought this phrase from goal.com serves the discussion best.. we will find out if mole's claim is vindicated or what majority of fans thing ( that we are right up there ) is true i guess..

The next two fixtures, then, could define the season for Madrid and if they are to aspire to the very biggest of prizes, the Merengues must prove their mettle against Europe's elite. At the moment, despite their fantastic form in 2011-12, when it comes to facing the top teams at least, the jury is still out on Mourinho's Madrid.


one more left :arrow:


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Post by Doc Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:58 pm

I wonder if anyone realises the "2nd best team in the world" is pretty much a subjective point of view. Also, this so called ranking, is it for this season or in general because if it is in general, then Inter should be considered as they won a UCL 2 years ago.

If it is this season then what Bhends wrote makes real sense as to why a lot of people consider Real Madrid 2nd best.
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Post by urbaNRoots Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:08 pm

If Real Madrid isn't the second best team than who is? :facepalm:

Only Barca is an option there.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:24 pm

BhritanniaBhlue wrote:

Who said anything about them being scrubs? I certainly didn't...You just can't be the 2nd best team in the world when you don't make it out of the CL groups and then you get really roughed up by a Europa League side in the round of 16...



So who the hell is in the discussion then? Man Utd, Milan, Bayern? You created a really angry-toned thread all because you think Madrid should be considered the 3rd or 4th best team in the world instead of the 2nd? So much for materiality

What the hell do Madrid's struggles in the CL in the last decade have to do with anything? Is this the same Madrid side that had all those problems? No? So then who the hell cares? What relevancy does that have?

Also even if Barca DID overtake them, clearly Barca is the consensus number one in the world, so that would not change my argument for them being number #2 at all...

What exactly did Man United "prove" in Europe by failing to get out of a group with Basel, Benfica, and Otelulz Gulati, and then getting subsequently hammered by Bilbao?

With the amount of squad turnover year-in year-out with these teams it is totally meaningless to use past years european results as evidence to support a current subjective ranking...

As I said, Madrid are considered the best because they are stocked with talent, they are still alive in the CL, and they are topping their league (which includes the best team in the world)....How many other teams in the world can say that?

None? So then until one of those things changes, why should we consider any other team better? Because they lost to Lyon or Liverpool or other teams in the CL in past years?

Thats totally asinine...

Firstly i said what makes Madrid much better than everyone else, i never said they were worse than the likes of Bayern, Chelsea, United, Milan etc etc......

The point behind the thread was why did everyone think Bayern would be a walk over for them and used thier record in europe as a point to argue,even since Mourinho joined who have they beaten in the KO stages of Europe?

Spurs?

As i already pointed out talent means very little, if talent is what matters why did Porto and Liverpool win the CL, why did Madrid's galatico's not win it?( I mean Zidane, Ronaldo,Raul,Figo,Beckham, Carlos) why did Inter beat Barca? etc etc...

My point was why are Madrid so much better than the teams below Barca, when it could be argued that those teams in question even since Mourinho took over have proven more in Europe or just as much.

Of course if they win La Liga and CL or even just beat Bayern and lose the final and La Liga to Barca this argument is thrown out of the window but as it stands Madrid while full of ability are an unproven quantity.

Which is what my point is, to me to be 1st or 2nd etc etc you have to prove it in Europe's top competition and not just have lots of ability and feast on teams below CL level.
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Post by izzy Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:39 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Firstly i said what makes Madrid much better than everyone else, i never said they were worse than the likes of Bayern, Chelsea, United, Milan etc etc......

The point behind the thread was why did everyone think Bayern would be a walk over for them and used thier record in europe as a point to argue,even since Mourinho joined who have they beaten in the KO stages of Europe?

Spurs?

As i already pointed out talent means very little, if talent is what matters why did Porto and Liverpool win the CL, why did Madrid's galatico's not win it?( I mean Zidane, Ronaldo,Raul,Figo,Beckham, Carlos) why did Inter beat Barca? etc etc...

My point was why are Madrid so much better than the teams below Barca, when it could be argued that those teams in question even since Mourinho took over have proven more in Europe or just as much.

Of course if they win La Liga and CL or even just beat Bayern and lose the final and La Liga to Barca this argument is thrown out of the window but as it stands Madrid while full of ability are an unproven quantity.

Which is what my point is, to me to be 1st or 2nd etc etc you have to prove it in Europe's top competition and not just have lots of ability and feast on teams below CL level.

Utter crap.
So let me get this straight? We should fix the draw and face the best teams in Europe year in year out in the last 16? What year basis are you even judging this on? You go on about other teams proven more but not even given a specific time frame just throwing out teams and random years, what the hell it that?

Say what you want but at the end the day, since Mou has arrived we have been to two CL semi's in two years. FACT. You can only beat whos in front of you. Is it our fault that certain teams in Europe aren't performing as they should be? Is it our fault that the draw is RANDOM?

Pure dross is what this is. It's a random draw FFS. Unless you have some mystical powers that will make sure we draw the toughest groups, and toughest teams in the KO rounds, your arguement holds no weight.
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Post by Doc Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:46 pm

Still wanna know who is this "everyone" who thought Bayern would be a walk over for Real Madrid. Just saying...

And once again, what Bhends wrote answered your question as to why people would consider Real Madrid better than everyone else except Barcelona. It is really not that hard to understand...
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Post by EarlyPrototype Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:48 pm

Doc wrote:Still wanna know who is this "everyone" who thought Bayern would be a walk over for Real Madrid. Just saying...


I think Arq was the only one who was certain Madrid would beat Bayern lol.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:48 pm

izzy wrote:
Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Firstly i said what makes Madrid much better than everyone else, i never said they were worse than the likes of Bayern, Chelsea, United, Milan etc etc......

The point behind the thread was why did everyone think Bayern would be a walk over for them and used thier record in europe as a point to argue,even since Mourinho joined who have they beaten in the KO stages of Europe?

Spurs?

As i already pointed out talent means very little, if talent is what matters why did Porto and Liverpool win the CL, why did Madrid's galatico's not win it?( I mean Zidane, Ronaldo,Raul,Figo,Beckham, Carlos) why did Inter beat Barca? etc etc...

My point was why are Madrid so much better than the teams below Barca, when it could be argued that those teams in question even since Mourinho took over have proven more in Europe or just as much.

Of course if they win La Liga and CL or even just beat Bayern and lose the final and La Liga to Barca this argument is thrown out of the window but as it stands Madrid while full of ability are an unproven quantity.

Which is what my point is, to me to be 1st or 2nd etc etc you have to prove it in Europe's top competition and not just have lots of ability and feast on teams below CL level.

Utter crap.
So let me get this straight? We should fix the draw and face the best teams in Europe year in year out in the last 16? What year basis are you even judging this on? You go on about other teams proven more but not even given a specific time frame just throwing out teams and random years, what the hell it that?

Say what you want but at the end the day, since Mou has arrived we have been to two CL semi's in two years. FACT. You can only beat whos in front of you. Is it our fault that certain teams in Europe aren't performing as they should be? Is it our fault that the draw is RANDOM?

Pure dross is what this is. It's a random draw FFS. Unless you have some mystical powers that will make sure we draw the toughest groups, and toughest teams in the KO rounds, your arguement holds no weight.

Did i say that? no i didnt i said you have not faced and beaten elite teams, not your own fault obviously the teams that you are supposedly above have beaten beaten elite teams in the same time span.....

My opinion is that you cant be considered above those teams in question until 1. You beat one of these teams in question ( how would you know you are better without proving it? ) 2. or win the Competition or reach the final.

Then my argument goes down the drain, but as it stands atm you have not beaten an elite team so how can you consider yourselfs above them when you have not beaten an elite team?

Talent alone and beating teams in your own league with releative ease doesnt prove it imo.

Also Doc, go through the Bayern v Madrid thread and you we will see what i mean, practically everyone apart from a handful of peopl in that thread thought Madrid would win comfortably.
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Post by Doc Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:54 pm

By that, there shouldn't be a 2nd best team period. And yes, I read the entire thread from the start Mole, you are over-exaggerating as per usual...
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