Quran burning: Obama apologizes

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Post by zizzle Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:33 pm

free_cat wrote:
zizzle wrote:
che wrote:
The Verminator wrote:

about the apostasy thing (this is leaving the religion to clarify right?), it's not death penalty for apsotasy, as far as i understand, basically if you leave the religion, you are punished in the afterworld (obviously) and you are punished in this life too in some form. Not death...

so god will punish me for exercising the free will that he gave me?

he also gave you a mouth that can utter blasphemy, hands that can commit murder, and a mind that can be used for evil. God provides you with these benefits and it's up to you to use them as you might.

God didn't give me hands, mind or any of this.

If he exists, the only thing that he did was starting the universe or set up the physics laws that govern it.



why do you have the need to conradict yourself ? if you're complaining that god will punish you for the freewill he gave you (your words) then you're bound to believe that he gave you a mouth and a pair of hands. First pick a position and then defend it, but dont switch positions depending on your argument, that's childish.

ps: spare me the biology leasson, i probably know more about that than you do

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Post by RedOranje Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:38 pm

zizzle wrote:

why do you have the need to conradict yourself ? if you're complaining that god will punish you for the freewill he gave you (your words) then you're bound to believe that he gave you a mouth and a pair of hands. First pick a position and then defend it, but dont switch positions depending on your argument, that's childish.

ps: spare me the biology leasson, i probably know more about that than you do
Practice what you preach, mate. No need to be condescending or antagonistic.
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Post by free_cat Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:03 pm

zizzle wrote:
free_cat wrote:
zizzle wrote:
che wrote:
The Verminator wrote:

about the apostasy thing (this is leaving the religion to clarify right?), it's not death penalty for apsotasy, as far as i understand, basically if you leave the religion, you are punished in the afterworld (obviously) and you are punished in this life too in some form. Not death...

so god will punish me for exercising the free will that he gave me?

he also gave you a mouth that can utter blasphemy, hands that can commit murder, and a mind that can be used for evil. God provides you with these benefits and it's up to you to use them as you might.

God didn't give me hands, mind or any of this.

If he exists, the only thing that he did was starting the universe or set up the physics laws that govern it.



why do you have the need to conradict yourself ? if you're complaining that god will punish you for the freewill he gave you (your words) then you're bound to believe that he gave you a mouth and a pair of hands. First pick a position and then defend it, but dont switch positions depending on your argument, that's childish.

ps: spare me the biology leasson, i probably know more about that than you do

I didn't say anything about god punishing me for having free will, or a mouth, I think that was che or Señor Penguin.

I was just explaining that the hypothesis "god gave me hands and mouth" is clearly refuted.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:53 pm

che wrote:except leaving a religion doesn't harm anyone as opposed to murder, so why exactly should i be punished for it?

yeah, whatsup with that? why do muslims want to kill ex-muslims when they change faith? thats just horrible
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Post by RealGunner Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:44 pm

free_cat wrote:
zizzle wrote:
che wrote:
The Verminator wrote:

about the apostasy thing (this is leaving the religion to clarify right?), it's not death penalty for apsotasy, as far as i understand, basically if you leave the religion, you are punished in the afterworld (obviously) and you are punished in this life too in some form. Not death...

so god will punish me for exercising the free will that he gave me?

he also gave you a mouth that can utter blasphemy, hands that can commit murder, and a mind that can be used for evil. God provides you with these benefits and it's up to you to use them as you might.

God didn't give me hands, mind or any of this.

If he exists, the only thing that he did was starting the universe or set up the physics laws that govern it.

After that, the universe expanded, atoms of hydrogen and helium formed, these collapsed into gas clouds and then into galaxies. In these galaxies, stars fused all other known chemical elements and then exploded distributing them all around the universe. From these, many new stars and planets formed, and from this very same elements, life started and arouse. Then from a single mollecules that could replicate itself, through evolution and the law of natural selection, we evolved hands, eyes, mind, mouth etc.


yea exactly!!!

There was a huge blast in my garage and now stands a Ferrari Testarosa!!!
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Post by RealGunner Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:46 pm

Yuri Yukuv wrote:
che wrote:except leaving a religion doesn't harm anyone as opposed to murder, so why exactly should i be punished for it?

yeah, whatsup with that? why do muslims want to kill ex-muslims when they change faith? thats just horrible

Nothing to do with Religion, The one who kills will be worse off
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Post by StevieRayVaughan Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:47 pm

Yuri Yukuv wrote:
che wrote:except leaving a religion doesn't harm anyone as opposed to murder, so why exactly should i be punished for it?

yeah, whatsup with that? why do muslims want to kill ex-muslims when they change faith? thats just horrible

Its not that all Muslims want to kill ex-Muslims like that, but Islam (in its teachings) does claim that. Therefore, still countries like Iran practice such things like stoning people for adultery etc. I have posted the evidence in terms of Hadith which is a crucial part of Islam.

Why? Because it was a idea created in a society where most people were uneducated. It was easy to convince people then that such things were a message from God.

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Post by RedOranje Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:22 pm

RealGunner wrote:
yea exactly!!!

There was a huge blast in my garage and now stands a Ferrari Testarosa!!!
No, not exactly... not at all, actually.
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Post by The Verminator Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:46 am

One question to those who don't believe in a god if you guys don't mind. Know i know that this is probably gonna get countered with "Oh so how do you believe in a God that has never been seen before" and all that....but i gotta ask, don't you guys think that it can't be a coincidence that everything that was made, fell into place so perfectly? Like how many species of insects are dependent on this one species of insect, or how so many animals rely on other animals in a way? It's hard to explain coz i'm trying really hard to think of some examples but im drawing blanks. Was it really a coincidence that trees all of a sudden existed and they take in CO2 and release Oxygen for example? Where did gravity come from? How did these galaxies form from particles and then planets were made, and inside Earth, there are living breathing animals and plants? Hoenstly do you guys ever think about that and ask, "Surely it can't be a coincidence?" Just want your opinions fellas Wink
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Post by StevieRayVaughan Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:34 am

[quote="The Verminator"]One question to those who don't believe in a god if you guys don't mind. Know i know that this is probably gonna get countered with "Oh so how do you believe in a God that has never been seen before" and all that....but i gotta ask, don't you guys think that it can't be a coincidence that everything that was made, fell into place so perfectly? Like how many species of insects are dependent on this one species of insect, or how so many animals rely on other animals in a way? It's hard to explain coz i'm trying really hard to think of some examples but im drawing blanks. Was it really a coincidence that trees all of a sudden existed and they take in CO2 and release Oxygen for example? Where did gravity come from? How did these galaxies form from particles and then planets were made, and inside Earth, there are living breathing animals and plants? Hoenstly do you guys ever think about that and ask, "Surely it can't be a coincidence?" Just want your opinions fellas Wink[/quote]

No one clearly understands how the big bang started. Remember, science didnt know evolution existed 300 years ago. Science is constantly working towards answering the questions.

You said, [color=red]"Was it really a coincidence that trees all of a sudden existed and they take in CO2 and release Oxygen for example? "[/color]

Trees didn't just pop up one day, and started releasing oxygen. It is a long process and you need to properly understand evolution and how living things properly started. I can post some documentaries on these concepts if you are interested in learning. The impression I get from you is that you dont clearly understand that concept.

However you make a decent point in that is it cant all be a coincidence?It is like the watch-maker argument, which is it all looks too good to be true, therefore it must be designed. You need to understand the Darwinian Natural Selection to understand this concept. Here is the answer from the great Richard Dawkins.

Please watch this it is only 8 mins long:

Watch from 1:22 onwards.

Please watch till the end of the video. It will answer ur questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDdn0UPDjmk

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Post by StevieRayVaughan Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:47 am

I am stealing this from Richard Dawkins:

It is called the "Illogic of Default"

1. We have theory A and theory B

2. Theory A is supported by lots of empirical evidence.

3. Theory B is supported by no evidence.

4. I can't understand how theory A might explain X

5. Therefore theory B must be correct.

(Ignoring the question whether Theory B can explain X, and ignoring the fact that Theory B has no positive evidence in its favor anyway)

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Post by The Verminator Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:17 am

Right well look, you'd be right in saying i don't have much knowledge in regards to evolution ( i will watch that video when i get some more time). It's true i've never really paid too much attention into how evolution works. But like i said, to me it can't be a coincidence that everything around us, lives and works in perfect harmony, and serves a particular purpose to the food chain, etc. Ya know? But like i said, i'll watch that vid.



And this is on a slightly different topic. I was wondering something. I notice that Christians make a big fuss over Jesus. Fair enough, he was born from the Virgin Mary. But then i'm a bit confused as to why the same improtance is not placed on Adam, who was created from absolutely nothing?

If anyone doesn't really like me asking these questions just say so and i'll stop....
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Post by StevieRayVaughan Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:40 am

The Verminator wrote:Right well look, you'd be right in saying i don't have much knowledge in regards to evolution ( i will watch that video when i get some more time). It's true i've never really paid too much attention into how evolution works. But like i said, to me it can't be a coincidence that everything around us, lives and works in perfect harmony, and serves a particular purpose to the food chain, etc. Ya know? But like i said, i'll watch that vid.



And this is on a slightly different topic. I was wondering something. I notice that Christians make a big fuss over Jesus. Fair enough, he was born from the Virgin Mary. But then i'm a bit confused as to why the same improtance is not placed on Adam, who was created from absolutely nothing?

If anyone doesn't really like me asking these questions just say so and i'll stop....

Well the simple way to look at it is: Adam was the first man, but Jesus was the son of God. Adam was a sinner, Jesus was a redeemer of people's sin. That is if you believe in such bullshit.

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Post by The Verminator Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:57 am

Right thanks for clearing that up. Couldn't understand why he wasn't known as the son of God.
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Post by VivaStPauli Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:35 pm

The Verminator wrote:but i gotta ask, don't you guys think that it can't be a coincidence that everything that was made, fell into place so perfectly? Like how many species of insects are dependent on this one species of insect, or how so many animals rely on other animals in a way? It's hard to explain coz i'm trying really hard to think of some examples but im drawing blanks. Was it really a coincidence that trees all of a sudden existed and they take in CO2 and release Oxygen for example?

Evolution explains all that perfectly. Just the same as it does the whole concept of "the earth was made for man" - the world fits humans needs perfectly because we evolved here. Our hands have the right size to grip the things we need to interact with, our mouths are placed so we can see what we eat and we can reach them with our hands.

Stuff like that makes it easy to believe in a creator, but that's actually putting it all backwards. It's just like pondering the miracle of life: if there was no life, we couldn't think about it, so it's futile to argue how unlikely it is. If it hadn't happened, we couldn't stress how unlikely it was to have happened.

Technically trees didn't exist "all of a sudden", but I'm sure you know that. The point is that at a certain time, most of earths life forms breathed CO2, they consumed it and exhaled oxygen, and the earths life forms came close to extinction by oxygen poisoning - no wonder, then, that life forms that could consume oxygen experienced a boom phase. Now it hangs in a healthy(ish) balance - with animals consuming oxygen, and plants consuming CO2.

Again, it seems unlikely, but if it hadn't happened like that, none of us would be alive right now, so logically it really isn't relevant how likely it is.


Where did gravity come from? How did these galaxies form from particles and then planets were made, and inside Earth, there are living breathing animals and plants? Hoenstly do you guys ever think about that and ask, "Surely it can't be a coincidence?" Just want your opinions fellas Wink

"Coincidence" is maybe a bit harsh. It was, if you consider the laws of physics, inevetable that planets formed. And with an infinitude of planets, some of them are bound to have life on them.

I really get what you're saying, (and have no idea where gravity came from, other than to tell you "it's a primal force of the universe that came into being during the big bang"), but I just think that scientific theories are just as wondrous and offer more explanation than the belief of creation.
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Post by Jonathan28 Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:55 pm

Adam wasen't created from nothing he was made from the dust of the earth, there's a reason why we are buried when we die. Also, he wasen't the first man. This part isn't really as hard to figure out as some people will think it is but just read Genesis Chap 1, vs 26-28.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Adam and Eve were meant to be used as an example of the fall of men, they were not the only humans on the earth at the time. Where do you think Cain's wife(Adam and Eve's wife) suddenly appeared from in the Bible? Did she just materialise out of thin air? Nope, of course not. The only way that we could all remotely come from Adam and Eve is after the Flood, only Noah, his wife, his sons and their sons were left. If we look at it that way i guess we could say that, but it would be indirectly.

Also, Stevie, you seem to have an unhealthy obssession with calling anything religious garbage. Are you so insecure that you cannot just leave people to their beliefs and get on with your life? Because you desperately seem to want to discredit it in every single way, but you are not the only one.
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Post by Jonathan28 Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:59 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:"Coincidence" is maybe a bit harsh. It was, if you consider the laws of physics, inevetable that planets formed. And with an infinitude of planets, some of them are bound to have life on them.

I really get what you're saying, (and have no idea where gravity came from, other than to tell you "it's a primal force of the universe that came into being during the big bang"), but I just think that scientific theories are just as wondrous and offer more explanation than the belief of creation.

The offer more explanation to those who want to believe in them. You will never get a religious fundamentalist to believe in evolution, and vice versa you will never get someone like Richard Dawkins to believe in a creator. But saying that, there have been people from both sides who have changed thier views, many of them well known. Which ever way we look at it, nobody will be truely sure either way until the day we die.
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Post by VivaStPauli Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:34 pm

Jonathan28 wrote:The offer more explanation to those who want to believe in them. You will never get a religious fundamentalist to believe in evolution, and vice versa you will never get someone like Richard Dawkins to believe in a creator. But saying that, there have been people from both sides who have changed thier views, many of them well known. Which ever way we look at it, nobody will be truely sure either way until the day we die.

It is still painfully wrong to use that as a basis to make those two world views appear equal in terms of present evidence.

Yes, you will probably not convince a fundamentalist that his nutjobbery has no basis, but it's not like there's any evidence for the creation myth. It's a matter of faith. You either believe it or don't.

Evolution is an observable process that you can literally see happen in front of your eyes - if you own a microscope and some bacteria. It is based on observation, hasn't been disproven or seriously challenged since his inception and is universally accepted among scientists, AKA the people who gather knowledge for a living.

I refuse to pretend they're equally likely world views.
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Post by Jonathan28 Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:41 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
Jonathan28 wrote:The offer more explanation to those who want to believe in them. You will never get a religious fundamentalist to believe in evolution, and vice versa you will never get someone like Richard Dawkins to believe in a creator. But saying that, there have been people from both sides who have changed thier views, many of them well known. Which ever way we look at it, nobody will be truely sure either way until the day we die.

It is still painfully wrong to use that as a basis to make those two world views appear equal in terms of present evidence.

Yes, you will probably not convince a fundamentalist that his nutjobbery has no basis, but it's not like there's any evidence for the creation myth. It's a matter of faith. You either believe it or don't.

Evolution is an observable process that you can literally see happen in front of your eyes - if you own a microscope and some bacteria. It is based on observation, hasn't been disproven or seriously challenged since his inception and is universally accepted among scientists, AKA the people who gather knowledge for a living.

I refuse to pretend they're equally likely world views.

*sigh* This is why Science and Religion will never have peace. One side see's the other just myth the other see's the other side as a garbage theory.

Science and Religion can happliy co-exist, its the people involved in them who cannot.
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Post by VivaStPauli Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:47 pm

But the objective fact is that one world view is supported by evidence that holds up to scientific standards, iE it can be independendly reviewed, reproduced and verified, while the other, you just believe in.

Note that I never said they're not equally valid world views - I don't care a whole lot what other people believe. It just annoys me when people try to make a lopsided debate seem balanced by ignoring the fact that some arguments are stronger than others.

Evolution has the strong arguments. It explains pretty much everything we see. Creationism needs me to disbelief factual findings, or seriously doubt proven scientific methods like radio carbon dating.
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Post by free_cat Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:01 pm

Jonathan28 wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:
Jonathan28 wrote:The offer more explanation to those who want to believe in them. You will never get a religious fundamentalist to believe in evolution, and vice versa you will never get someone like Richard Dawkins to believe in a creator. But saying that, there have been people from both sides who have changed thier views, many of them well known. Which ever way we look at it, nobody will be truely sure either way until the day we die.

It is still painfully wrong to use that as a basis to make those two world views appear equal in terms of present evidence.

Yes, you will probably not convince a fundamentalist that his nutjobbery has no basis, but it's not like there's any evidence for the creation myth. It's a matter of faith. You either believe it or don't.

Evolution is an observable process that you can literally see happen in front of your eyes - if you own a microscope and some bacteria. It is based on observation, hasn't been disproven or seriously challenged since his inception and is universally accepted among scientists, AKA the people who gather knowledge for a living.

I refuse to pretend they're equally likely world views.

*sigh* This is why Science and Religion will never have peace. One side see's the other just myth the other see's the other side as a garbage theory.

Science and Religion can happliy co-exist, its the people involved in them who cannot.

No, Religion and Science can't co-exist when one denies with bronze age irractonal beliefs what the other is discovering and proving through hard-work, rationality, skepticism and a scrupulous method.

Evolution is not a theory, it's a fact. It's the humility of science, always open to a refutation, to new discoveries and improvements to current knoweledge, that makes it label it as a "theory".

There are many steps to explain when it comes to evolution, but the big picture, evolution and natural selection it's a fact. It's supported by an astonishing amount of evidence:

- Fossils. A large sample of fossils, all of them cronologically buried in the strata that corresponds its dating.
- Homology or heritage evidence: related organisms have similarities that come from their ancestors.
- Distribution in time and space of animals: One just example, if all organisms were created at the same time from God, how come we find different species in isolated places like Australia (Kangaroos, Koala, etc) or the Galapagos.

Even in the time of your life, tens of species have gone extinct.
On the contrary, in this same time, new species have appeared, like bacteria immune to peniciline.

The fact of evolution.
The lie of creationism.
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Post by zizzle Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:00 pm

RedOranje wrote:
RealGunner wrote:
yea exactly!!!

There was a huge blast in my garage and now stands a Ferrari Testarosa!!!
No, not exactly... not at all, actually.


i understand how the blast turned into a ferrari over millions and millions of years but that doesnt answer the question of how did this blast came to be in the first place ?

The fact that we understand how the universe was created does not answer this question, science might be able to explain the process but it tells us NOTHING about where this process came from
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Post by zizzle Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:18 pm

Person A: who created the universe

Person B: No one created the universe, there was a big ball of energy and it became exteremly hot and dense and started expanding rapidly. This expanding caused the energy to cool down and energy started forming subatomic particles and here forces like gravity came into play and these sub particles started forming into atoms and matter started forming.

Person A: wow that's amazing Person B, but where did that ball of energy come from ?

Person B: You ignorant fool, this is a long and comlicated process that we can only understand through science, what i just told you is cold facts how dare you question what we came to know through long reseach when we can support every claim with unrefutable evidence.

Person A: *poker face*


Last edited by zizzle on Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by che Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:22 pm

literally dozens of theories about where the initial energy came from... and this imaginary "person B" would most likely reply "we don't know, but we're trying to find out" to the question
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Post by zizzle Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:37 pm

i've been searching for pre time zero explainations but i found nothing so far, for some reason everyone whenever i ask this people end up saying the stuff we already know. Care to share some new information ?
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Quran burning: Obama apologizes - Page 9 Empty Re: Quran burning: Obama apologizes

Post by StevieRayVaughan Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:03 pm

zizzle wrote:Person A: who created the universe

Person B: No one created the universe, there was a big ball of energy and it became exteremly hot and dense and started expanding rapidly. This expanding caused the energy to cool down and energy started forming subatomic particles and here forces like gravity came into play and these sub particles started forming into atoms and matter started forming.

Person A: wow that's amazing Person B, but where did that ball of energy come from ?

Person B: You ignorant fool, this is a long and comlicated process that we can only understand through science, what i just told you is cold facts how dare you question what we came to know through long reseach when we can support every claim with unrefutable evidence.

Person A: *poker face*

First of all, you have provided absolutely no evidence for a creater. I can just make a hypothesis that Santa Claus exists and created the world. You wont be able to disprove it.

Secondly, Scientists dont say "you ignorant fool" regarding the topic that how the big bang started. We simply say "we dont know yet". However, the religious people are so sure that their bronze age beliefs are right, that they make a definitive claims.

In a nutshell,

Religion says God created us, we have no evidence, but just have faith in us.

Science says: God probably didnt create us, the ideas of natural selection/evolution disproves the teachings of most religions, we know for a fact that God didnt create us in 6 or 7 days. Therefore, we cannot claim that God created us because we have evidence otherwise.

StevieRayVaughan
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Quran burning: Obama apologizes - Page 9 Empty Re: Quran burning: Obama apologizes

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