Quran burning: Obama apologizes

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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:20 am

Because asexual reproduction doesn't allow for the re-arrangement of attributes within just one generation - sexual reproduction does. It's an evolutionary advantage, especially for organisms that live longer, like multi-celled organisms.

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Post by Senor Penguin Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:07 am

zizzle wrote:If we're gonna accept that reproduction was a function of the first living cell then why did living creators give up the much simpler and more efficient identical and asexual reproduction ? Obviously at the moment evolution does not have the answer of everything though that is not saying that it wont in the future. However as it stands both believers and atheists rely on faith for the answers of these questions. You believe that science will eventually have all the answers (though there is always the possibility that it wont) and we put our faith in god. See, we're not different after all, but our belief should not stop us from learning more because if religion is truly the word of god then science should not pose a threat to our faith
I think the difference lies in dogma. Religious faith almost always operates within dogma and needs to be contorted if it wants to be reconciled with evidence that contradicts it. This is a very difficult process some places where faith is practiced. In some cases impossible. Science and scientists simply do not have this problem. They may believe in some hypotheses that are logically sound but they do not hold onto these any longer when evidence contradicts them. More importantly, they do not commit fratricide if they disagree amongst each other and most certainly do not hold anything "holy" or "blasphemous" whatsoever. It is evidence and reason before anything else.

I'm afraid that I can only leave room for faith in a scientific context if it is of deistic nature, because it is based on observation of the realm that we exist in and doesn't profess all sorts of bizarre ideas of prophets and miracles and divine intervention etc. It is simply the best of metaphorical interpretations that exist out there because it does not slow down the process of scientific inquiry in any way whatsoever.

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Post by free_cat Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:53 pm

So, still no link to a translated to Quran so we can check if it's so infallible and prophetical?
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Post by The Verminator Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:20 am

What you got against Islam?
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Post by StevieRayVaughan Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:50 am

[quote="The Verminator"]What you got against Islam?[/quote]



I know this question wasnt directed towards me, but here are some of the problems I have against Islam ( if you are interested).

[b]Suppression of women:[/b]

Here are the verses from Quran on women that proves my point:

1) Muslim men may marry up to four women, but no such provision is made for Muslim women.

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice," (4:3).

2)A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half," (4:11).

3) Men have more rights regarding divorce than do women
Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise," (2:228)

[b] Stoning people for committing adultury[/b]

The Noble Qur'an An-Nur 24:2-9

"The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law)"


[b]Death penalty for apostasy[/b]

The Quran says:

9:73-74 O Prophet, strive [j-h-d] hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant and stern with them . . . they did utter the words of unbelief. Thus, they were guilty of unbelief after they professed Islam . . . If even now they repent of their misbehavior, it will be good for their own selves, but if they do not repent, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the Hereafter . . . . (Maududi, vol. 2, p. 213)

This is what Hadith says:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas [like-for-like punishment] for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." (Bukari)
[b]

Acceptability of killing infidels:[/b]

"fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them?" (9:5).


I dont actually have problems with Muslims at all because most of them are peace loving people just like me. However, their is many things in Islam that I dont like just like in Christianity, Hinduism etc. I dont like to just bash on Islam by itself because I personally dont like any religions.

Note: The last point on the infidels depends somewhat on your interpretation.

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Post by free_cat Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:05 am

The Verminator wrote:What you got against Islam?

Nothing in particular, the same I've got against any other major religion:

a) It's a fairy tale and an irrational believe.
b) It promotes intolerance to other people who doesn't believe in that specific religion.
c) It is a source of fundamentalism.
d) It promotes dubious ethics.
e) Many of its beliefs are false and contrary to how the real world is.

So, no link to a Quran in english?


Last edited by free_cat on Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Soul Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:23 am

@StevieRayVaughan

I thought those points were well responded to by zizzle in the other thread.

I recommend you reading the following link:

http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/misconceptions/index.htm

or just visit the main website http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/

It answers a lot of misconceptions. His tone is arrogant and I've heard he isn't exactly a person with a very pleasant personality but keep that aside and read what he has to say.
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Post by la bestia negra Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:37 am

StevieRayVaughan wrote:

Stoning people for committing adultury

The Noble Qur'an An-Nur 24:2-9

"The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law)"


you need 4 witnesses for that and
and if you do the "ohh i saw them go in the house together" dosent work

basically if you commit adultery you your partner and the man up there will know

2)A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half," (4:11).
back then this was considered heaven for women
women out islam had slim to no rights back then



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Post by Mamad Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:13 am

Man in Islam Must go to work and pay money to Women but Women can sit and eat :coffee: .
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Post by Senor Penguin Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:39 pm

Soul wrote:@StevieRayVaughan

I thought those points were well responded to by zizzle in the other thread.

I recommend you reading the following link:

http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/misconceptions/index.htm

or just visit the main website http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/

It answers a lot of misconceptions. His tone is arrogant and I've heard he isn't exactly a person with a very pleasant personality but keep that aside and read what he has to say.
That site makes just as many misconceptions about Islam. Just looking at the front page there's a lot of boring apologetics.

Supposedly Islam means "peace" even though most people agree that it means "Submission to God". There's a really funny part about the Hijab which says: "Even today, West is degrading women to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketers, hidden behind the colorful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’."

And isn't that the same guy who spoke some nonsense about evolution? Anyway, my head aches from so much nonsense.

supra969 wrote:
StevieRayVaughan wrote:

Stoning people for committing adultury

The Noble Qur'an An-Nur 24:2-9

"The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law)"

you need 4 witnesses for that and
Is that supposed to make it less abhorring?

If the Quran is truly the word of God then I'll gladly tell him that he's an asshole once we meet on judgment day. Actually ... Scrap that. If he's omnipotent then he can surely read my mind, so chances are that he already knows (assuming that he exists, that is).

Mamad wrote:Man in Islam Must go to work and pay money to Women but Women can sit and eat :coffee: .
So Islam encourages women to be slobs?

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Post by Jonathan28 Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:17 pm

My reaction everytime I visit this thread:

Quran burning: Obama apologizes - Page 8 Abe
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Post by Mamad Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:49 pm

So Islam encourages women to be slobs?

Nope. But in Islam there is a ton of things you can say that are in favour of Women. so Women in Islam are this and that isn't true.
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Post by che Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:56 pm

of course women can sit at home and eat, because they're not considered equal to men and hence can't perform the same jobs Laughing

hard to blame a 7th century book for that though, it was pretty much the living standard in middle ages...
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Post by Mamad Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:50 pm

Well there is a different point of view.
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Post by StevieRayVaughan Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:39 pm

Soul wrote:@StevieRayVaughan

I thought those points were well responded to by zizzle in the other thread.

I recommend you reading the following link:

http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/misconceptions/index.htm

or just visit the main website http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/

It answers a lot of misconceptions. His tone is arrogant and I've heard he isn't exactly a person with a very pleasant personality but keep that aside and read what he has to say.


I did read Zizzle 's arguments which I think were complete bull, thats why I wanted you to think about it yourself. I want you to respond to this or atleast think about it. All I really want is you to open your mind about things like these.

The famous Dr.Naik you wanted me to listen to famously proclaimed Osama Bil Laden as "soldier of Islam". He doesnt say Osama is soldier of Islam in this youtube, but another scholor Khaled Ahmed said he did.

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnwHN_ebzsw


I cant believe that he is defending Osama. He tries to take this perspective, " I am not saying saying he is good or bad". How can you not consider him bad? He thinks Bin Laden didnt do 9/11. Then he says " I am not saying this or that, but just giving information". He tries to take this innocent perspective, but he should realize that his voice gets heard by millions of people. As Rick Santorum once said, " what a snob". He does have a decent argument on why America shouldn't have gone against Afganishtan, but he subtly defends Osama every time he gets.

Your famous Dr.Naik also claims that 9/11 was a inside job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In9ILWvP-6g

I am referring for your sake people like Richard Dawkins, and you tell me to listen to televangelists like Dr. Naik. However, I shouldn't just judge him based on these two point Shocked




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Post by zizzle Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:50 pm

still bad mouthing me it appears. oh well

"Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou canst not find a road.” (Qur’an 4:88)"


obviously i cant help you
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Post by zizzle Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:58 pm

Senor Penguin wrote:
zizzle wrote:If we're gonna accept that reproduction was a function of the first living cell then why did living creators give up the much simpler and more efficient identical and asexual reproduction ? Obviously at the moment evolution does not have the answer of everything though that is not saying that it wont in the future. However as it stands both believers and atheists rely on faith for the answers of these questions. You believe that science will eventually have all the answers (though there is always the possibility that it wont) and we put our faith in god. See, we're not different after all, but our belief should not stop us from learning more because if religion is truly the word of god then science should not pose a threat to our faith
I think the difference lies in dogma. Religious faith almost always operates within dogma and needs to be contorted if it wants to be reconciled with evidence that contradicts it. This is a very difficult process some places where faith is practiced. In some cases impossible. Science and scientists simply do not have this problem. They may believe in some hypotheses that are logically sound but they do not hold onto these any longer when evidence contradicts them. More importantly, they do not commit fratricide if they disagree amongst each other and most certainly do not hold anything "holy" or "blasphemous" whatsoever. It is evidence and reason before anything else.

I'm afraid that I can only leave room for faith in a scientific context if it is of deistic nature, because it is based on observation of the realm that we exist in and doesn't profess all sorts of bizarre ideas of prophets and miracles and divine intervention etc. It is simply the best of metaphorical interpretations that exist out there because it does not slow down the process of scientific inquiry in any way whatsoever.


i cant argue with common sense. well said. However one can avoid this to a certain extent if one opens his mind and is willing to reshape his understanding of faith and god when evidence presents itself. Yet i understand that this trait isnt very common and this is a problem with humans in general though it tends to be visible in religios people
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Post by zizzle Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:16 pm

free_cat wrote:
The Verminator wrote:What you got against Islam?

Nothing in particular, the same I've got against any other major religion:

a) It's a fairy tale and an irrational believe.
b) It promotes intolerance to other people who doesn't believe in that specific religion.
c) It is a source of fundamentalism.
d) It promotes dubious ethics.
e) Many of its beliefs are false and contrary to how the real world is.

So, no link to a Quran in english?

http://www.searchtruth.com/tafsir/tafsir.php


This site has the Quran and the interpretation of the verses, while mentioning the background of each chapter and the time of it's revelation so you would make sense of the context
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Post by Adit Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:30 pm

How is stoning people justifiable in any context ? :facepalm:

Cant expect much from a middle age book lol
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Post by The Verminator Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:43 pm

free_cat wrote:
The Verminator wrote:What you got against Islam?

Nothing in particular, the same I've got against any other major religion:

a) It's a fairy tale and an irrational believe.
That is your opinion. But i understand that's what you got against religion
b) It promotes intolerance to other people who doesn't believe in that specific religion.
It is said somewhere (Quran or hadith i forget) Muslims must respect other beliefs.
c) It is a source of fundamentalism.
Right okay.
d) It promotes dubious ethics.
Care to elaborate?
e) Many of its beliefs are false and contrary to how the real world is.
Can't we say then that modern day society is contrary to the Muslim beliefs? Who says that the society today is how it should be? This is how i think of it as a Muslim obviously, but as an atheist (i'm just guessing), you would understandably want things to stay as they are...
So, no link to a Quran in english?
I think zizzle just provided one...
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Post by The Verminator Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:00 pm

StevieRayVaughan wrote:
The Verminator wrote:What you got against Islam?



I know this question wasnt directed towards me, but here are some of the problems I have against Islam ( if you are interested).

Suppression of women:

Here are the verses from Quran on women that proves my point:

1) Muslim men may marry up to four women, but no such provision is made for Muslim women.

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice," (4:3).

2)A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half," (4:11).

3) Men have more rights regarding divorce than do women
Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise," (2:228)

Stoning people for committing adultury

The Noble Qur'an An-Nur 24:2-9

"The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law)"


Death penalty for apostasy

The Quran says:

9:73-74 O Prophet, strive [j-h-d] hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant and stern with them . . . they did utter the words of unbelief. Thus, they were guilty of unbelief after they professed Islam . . . If even now they repent of their misbehavior, it will be good for their own selves, but if they do not repent, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the Hereafter . . . . (Maududi, vol. 2, p. 213)

This is what Hadith says:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas [like-for-like punishment] for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." (Bukari)


Acceptability of killing infidels:


"fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them?" (9:5).


I dont actually have problems with Muslims at all because most of them are peace loving people just like me. However, their is many things in Islam that I dont like just like in Christianity, Hinduism etc. I dont like to just bash on Islam by itself because I personally dont like any religions.

Note: The last point on the infidels depends somewhat on your interpretation.
That's cool man.

Now i would love to answer all statements but i gotta say, i understand mainly the basics of my religion. I give charity, i don't eaat pork, don't drink beer, and i pray five times a day. But i gotta admit i don't read much of the Quran so i don't wanna say something and pass it off as a fact because that's what some people do, and it's one of the reasons that the religion is misunderstood as it is today.

but i will answer whatever i feel i can...

about the apostasy thing (this is leaving the religion to clarify right?), it's not death penalty for apsotasy, as far as i understand, basically if you leave the religion, you are punished in the afterworld (obviously) and you are punished in this life too in some form. Not death....

And the whole infidel thing i can understand. The Quran was not revealed all at once. There were Surahs revealed according to what was happening at the time. That verse was perhaps revealed at the time of a war most likely. So He doesn't mean you should kill everyone that doesn't believe in Islam, just the people that were in the war.

And i understand why so many people get sooo confused reading the Quran. Because at times it relates to certain events going on at the time. My friend wanted to read the Quran but stopped reading after the first Surah. Why? Because he read something along the lines of this: "....and those who earned your anger (Jews)". Now this is what i have been told by a Sheikh, the jews at the time, knew that Muhammed was the last prophet of God. But they chose not to believe it. And of course this angered the Muslims. And this is what that verse was referring to.

So yea i can''t remember what point i was trying to make but yea there you go Laughing
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Post by che Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:32 pm

The Verminator wrote:

about the apostasy thing (this is leaving the religion to clarify right?), it's not death penalty for apsotasy, as far as i understand, basically if you leave the religion, you are punished in the afterworld (obviously) and you are punished in this life too in some form. Not death...

so god will punish me for exercising the free will that he gave me?
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Post by zizzle Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:49 pm

che wrote:
The Verminator wrote:

about the apostasy thing (this is leaving the religion to clarify right?), it's not death penalty for apsotasy, as far as i understand, basically if you leave the religion, you are punished in the afterworld (obviously) and you are punished in this life too in some form. Not death...

so god will punish me for exercising the free will that he gave me?

he also gave you a mouth that can utter blasphemy, hands that can commit murder, and a mind that can be used for evil. God provides you with these benefits and it's up to you to use them as you might.
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Post by che Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:55 am

except leaving a religion doesn't harm anyone as opposed to murder, so why exactly should i be punished for it?
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Post by free_cat Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:14 am

zizzle wrote:
che wrote:
The Verminator wrote:

about the apostasy thing (this is leaving the religion to clarify right?), it's not death penalty for apsotasy, as far as i understand, basically if you leave the religion, you are punished in the afterworld (obviously) and you are punished in this life too in some form. Not death...

so god will punish me for exercising the free will that he gave me?

he also gave you a mouth that can utter blasphemy, hands that can commit murder, and a mind that can be used for evil. God provides you with these benefits and it's up to you to use them as you might.

God didn't give me hands, mind or any of this.

If he exists, the only thing that he did was starting the universe or set up the physics laws that govern it.

After that, the universe expanded, atoms of hydrogen and helium formed, these collapsed into gas clouds and then into galaxies. In these galaxies, stars fused all other known chemical elements and then exploded distributing them all around the universe. From these, many new stars and planets formed, and from this very same elements, life started and arouse. Then from a single mollecules that could replicate itself, through evolution and the law of natural selection, we evolved hands, eyes, mind, mouth etc.

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Post by zizzle Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:33 pm

free_cat wrote:
zizzle wrote:
che wrote:
The Verminator wrote:

about the apostasy thing (this is leaving the religion to clarify right?), it's not death penalty for apsotasy, as far as i understand, basically if you leave the religion, you are punished in the afterworld (obviously) and you are punished in this life too in some form. Not death...

so god will punish me for exercising the free will that he gave me?

he also gave you a mouth that can utter blasphemy, hands that can commit murder, and a mind that can be used for evil. God provides you with these benefits and it's up to you to use them as you might.

God didn't give me hands, mind or any of this.

If he exists, the only thing that he did was starting the universe or set up the physics laws that govern it.



why do you have the need to conradict yourself ? if you're complaining that god will punish you for the freewill he gave you (your words) then you're bound to believe that he gave you a mouth and a pair of hands. First pick a position and then defend it, but dont switch positions depending on your argument, that's childish.

ps: spare me the biology leasson, i probably know more about that than you do
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