Nuri Sahin - Borussia Dortmund #18

Why bring up the Allen deal? The price paid was 15m because that was his buy-out clause and the club couldn't have approached him otherwise. It's a completely isolated and unrelated case to other transfers. And for every £18m Downing there's a £6m Coates. People love to play up the couple of big-money deals but at the same time ignore the actual atmosphere surrounding them. Fact is, paying £20m for an English winger who was his club's player of the season and supposedly in his prime is much closer to current market value than most would be willing to admit. Liverpool's deals certainly weren't good (especially in hindsight, which everyone uses while ignoring what was said at the time) but they were and are fairly accurate representations of how ridiculous the current market is. Newcastle's deal are more then exception than the rule.

Well with oil money jacking up the market, it's almost impossible to get the players you want unless you overpay.

Take Newcastle for example. They love buying bargains. Ashley was so cheap he didn't want to pay an extra million or two to get De Jong, and he ended up at BMG (the team that was willing to go an extra inch). Same story is happening with Debuchy and Douglas.

In this market teams just have to pay over the odds to get their players. I'm just glad it's not another brave British player we're paying this money on, but a proven WC potential type talent.

srigooner wrote:

BeautifulGame wrote:Are there are genuinely deluded people who believe we will pay 5 mil loan fee

Seriously the amount of people believe in these attention seeking ITK's

Generally, people would not have believed this to be true. But this is Liverpool we are talking about. Do you really want me to pull up all those numbers you guys have paid again in the last two years again? And don't tell me things have changed with Comoli sacking. You bought Allen for 15 million this summer - although that is still a LOT more digestable than the businesses from the earlier times. You don't need people to be deluded, you need your club to stop throwing money around. The market inflation due to oil money is bad enough.

I am sorry I have to pull this comment up, but I thought this topic of Liverpool's finances was discussed and closed earlier in the thread. Calling names doesn't help after that.

That isn't really name calling. It's a bit aggressive but not really out of line.

windkick wrote:Would suck if he goes to that rats nest that is Liverpool.

Hope he ends up at Arsenal

On the other hand, that is.

RedOranje wrote:Why bring up the Allen deal? The price paid was 15m because that was his buy-out clause and the club couldn't have approached him otherwise. It's a completely isolated and unrelated case to other transfers. And for every £18m Downing there's a £6m Coates. People love to play up the couple of big-money deals but at the same time ignore the actual atmosphere surrounding them. Fact is, paying £20m for an English winger who was his club's player of the season and supposedly in his prime is much closer to current market value than most would be willing to admit. Liverpool's deals certainly weren't good (especially in hindsight, which everyone uses while ignoring what was said at the time) but they were and are fairly accurate representations of how ridiculous the current market is. Newcastle's deal are more then exception than the rule.

RedOranje wrote:

srigooner wrote:

BeautifulGame wrote:Are there are genuinely deluded people who believe we will pay 5 mil loan fee

Seriously the amount of people believe in these attention seeking ITK's

Generally, people would not have believed this to be true. But this is Liverpool we are talking about. Do you really want me to pull up all those numbers you guys have paid again in the last two years again? And don't tell me things have changed with Comoli sacking. You bought Allen for 15 million this summer - although that is still a LOT more digestable than the businesses from the earlier times. You don't need people to be deluded, you need your club to stop throwing money around. The market inflation due to oil money is bad enough.

I am sorry I have to pull this comment up, but I thought this topic of Liverpool's finances was discussed and closed earlier in the thread. Calling names doesn't help after that.

That isn't really name calling. It's a bit aggressive but not really out of line.

Well as I have maintained, there is no point pulling up old debates and old numbers. I understand why you paid what you did. Whether it was justified, is another matter entirely. But if an 'aggressive' comment is made, it merits an aggressive reply too. Its obviously a lot easier when people have a more reasonable discussion.

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:what is ITK??? I really don't know

in the know

@ Sri: Compare BG's comment to windkick's. Rather, you really oughtn't have edited it out of my quote, as the comparison was the real purpose there. Bit naughty to paint a picture like that with twisted portrayals of the posts made.

I don't get how come paying 13M for AOC or 12M for Walcott (5 yrs ago) is completely justified by Arsenal fans, yet 15M for the closest young player to Wilshere falls into "Expensive British thing".

If Wilshere was fit and on the market, he'd be worth 30M max.

Allen is at least half as good, so his price is totally justified.

Allen dominated City's and Arsenal's midfield last season.....He is absolutely brilliant.

First name on the team sheet with Lucas for me.

Can't wait to see him and Lucas against Yaya on sunday. It'll be brilliant.

I was just being cheeky

I like both clubs. Just find Liverpool's recent transfers over the past few years funny

Schweini wrote:I don't get how come paying 13M for AOC or 12M for Walcott (5 yrs ago) is completely justified by Arsenal fans, yet 15M for the closest young player to Wilshere falls into "Expensive British thing".

If Wilshere was fit and on the market, he'd be worth 30M max.

Allen is at least half as good, so his price is totally justified.

Allen dominated City's and Arsenal's midfield last season.....He is absolutely brilliant.

First name on the team sheet with Lucas for me.

Can't wait to see him and Lucas against Yaya on sunday. It'll be brilliant.

I mean has Wilshire played enough to cement that he is a top world class player? Or is he the ultimate knee jerk? I can understand that for some odd reason English players go for retard amounts of cash, even though in the NT they have proven to not be all the hype and cash they go for. But has Wilshire himself, with all the potential....is he ever going to reach it? Seemed to be doing really good and has now been out forever. Yet people hold him on some pedestal like he is going to come back on some Iniesta type level

windkick wrote:I was just being cheeky

I like both clubs. Just find Liverpool's recent transfers over the past few years funny

I totally understand.

We've been a club with no stability for 2 years now. Change of managers >> Different methods >> different players.

But I think Rodgers is here to stay, and hence this will change. I have liked our transfers this year so far.

Borini's movement is absolutely excellent, and his finishing will improve with time..and Allen just plays like a Barcelona academy player. Sahin on loan is also very good considering we finished 8th last season.

We don't know anything about Oussama though


but I wish the money last season, was available now...we could have built a world class squad....ugh, what a missed opportunity

For sure! Good luck to you guys this year, miss you guys in the Champions

windkick wrote:
I mean has Wilshire played enough to cement that he is a top world class player? Or is he the ultimate knee jerk? I can understand that for some odd reason English players go for retard amounts of cash, even though in the NT they have proven to not be all the hype and cash they go for. But has Wilshire himself, with all the potential....is he ever going to reach it? Seemed to be doing really good and has now been out forever. Yet people hold him on some pedestal like he is going to come back on some Iniesta type level

The hype surrounding Wilshere is the fact he is an English player who is gifted technically and offers a level of creativity that is so rarely seen in English players. Before his injury he was in excellent form and in my opinion (honestly trying to look at it from an impartial perspective) was was of the top performing midfielders in the premier league. He still has some way to go and needs to prove he can maintain consistency and needs to develop certain aspects of his game. I think a lot of Egnland fans and especially Arsenal fans hope he recover's to the player he was ASAP so he can continue that rapid development.

I dont know if he be valued at 30mil, but a lot closer to 30 than 15.

Inflation of value on British players is well known and understood, I dont know why it is even being discussed. I would argue in the case of Liverpool, they might buy British too often? At time's I feel they need to significantly strengthen their squad and can get a lot more bang for their buck, thats all.

Do not take that as me thinking Allen was a bad signing, I think hes a decent player and we will see how he goes. He's even on my subs bench for my fantasy football team

RedOranje wrote:@ Sri: Compare BG's comment to windkick's. Rather, you really oughtn't have edited it out of my quote, as the comparison was the real purpose there. Bit naughty to paint a picture like that with twisted portrayals of the posts made.

Lol.. That comment was so full of troll that I didn't even want to quote it there! But point taken.. I am, however, glad that windkick has since clarified his posts In my defense, that 'deluded' thing was a bit low and I replied a wee bit impulsively..

Anyway - I have high hopes for Allen and it would have been good if all the money spent by Dalglish had reaped some benefits.. Would have made this summer easier..

Btw, don't even try to put a value on Jack. He is invaluable - rated higher than 100 million pounds

No seriously, rewind and watch him against the mighty Barca midfield in the 2-1 win at Emirates in CL 2010. He was 18 then. You will know why we rate him so highly and why he could have been so much more important now if he hadn't been out injured so long. Heck, we wouldn't have finished 19 points off the league leaders and trophyless if we had him fit last season! And we wouldn't be close to interested in Sahin either.

Schweini wrote:ps. I am still 100% sure we'll sign Dempsey. And another striker if Carroll is sold to Newcastle last minute.

I am very confident in Rodgers with transfers, he's been very shrewd so far.

Dempsey is not that good. I'm really hoping he stays at Fulham.

And there is no way we'll sell Carroll back to Newcastle unless an offer of over 20m comes in for him - and they won't pay that.

srigooner wrote:You bought Allen for 15 million this summer - although that is still a LOT more digestable than the businesses from the earlier times.

The 'Ox' cost just as much as Allen?

ynwa wrote:

srigooner wrote:You bought Allen for 15 million this summer - although that is still a LOT more digestable than the businesses from the earlier times.

The 'Ox' cost just as much as Allen?

Yeah and was younger and less proven than Allen when we bought him.. The difference is, Ox is one player. While Allen, Downing, Caroll,... See, I don't wanna go there. (also, now I feel bad for comparing Allen with those two relative flops I want Allen to be successful!)

I already told you, it was an impulsive 'aggressive' reply to a 'aggressive' comment! Geez, I have to explain this to every Liverpool fan reading this thread now!

Lol.. Its funny how a simple question (asking why you lot are intent on spending reportedly 20 mil quid on Sahin when there are well publicized lack of forward options), has lead into a massive discussion on Liverpool's finances and comparisons with Arsenal and Newcastle.. How does what Arsenal or Newcastle do make any difference! Its Liverpool which was the topic of discussion in the first place! Showing Arsenal has spent on one youngster, or showing Newcastle is stingy, is barely making a point. Come on fellas - play fair here!

srigooner wrote:
Yeah and was younger and less proven than Allen when we bought him.. The difference is, Ox is one player. While Allen, Downing, Caroll,... See, I don't wanna go there. (also, now I feel bad for comparing Allen with those two relative flops I want Allen to be successful!)

I already told you, it was an impulsive 'aggressive' reply to a 'aggressive' comment! Geez, I have to explain this to every Liverpool fan reading this thread now!

I'm strictly talking about Rodgers transfers (as you were); why bring Carroll and Downing into it...?

srigooner wrote:The difference is, Ox is one player. While Allen, Downing, Caroll,... See, I don't wanna go there. (also, now I feel bad for comparing Allen with those two relative flops

Allen is good man.As big as a talent as Ox is.Its a fair enough price considering Ox went for just as much.

ynwa wrote:

srigooner wrote:You bought Allen for 15 million this summer - although that is still a LOT more digestable than the businesses from the earlier times.

The 'Ox' cost just as much as Allen?

12mil to 15 with add-ons.. and we signed him as a 17 year old.. Allen is 22.

I believe srigooner specified it is a relatively 'digestable' deal and was more pointing to the fact this is an example of a larger picture whereby Liverpool pay absurd amounts for mediocre players (be aware I use the term 'mediocre' relative to the clubs stature). This one (hopefully for liverpool fans) will be one that actually see's a good return for the fee.

srigooner wrote:Lol.. Its funny how a simple question (asking why you lot are intent on spending reportedly 20 mil quid on Sahin when there are well publicized lack of forward options), has lead into a massive discussion on Liverpool's finances and comparisons with Arsenal and Newcastle.. How does what Arsenal or Newcastle do make any difference! Its Liverpool which was the topic of discussion in the first place! Showing Arsenal has spent on one youngster, or showing Newcastle is stingy, is barely making a point. Come on fellas - play fair here!

You're basing rumours as facts.

It's rumoured we're going to spend 20m on Sahin. That doesn't mean we are. For all we know, we're just loaning him on a one year deal with no buy-out clause of the end of it. (As there's another rumour going around that this why the Arsenal talks broke down.)

Before I made the comparison between Allen/Ox nothing about Arsenal and Newcastle was mentioned in terms of transfers...

It's quite clear that we need to improve and recruit players for the final third; but Reds comment is spot on. Sahin will definitely help us in the midfield. Lucas and Gerrard are still coming back from long-term injuries, they could quite easily (knock on wood they don't) re-injure themselves so it's important to have depth as the likes of Shelvey, Henderson and to an extent Suso are all young. Adam and Spearing have no future at the club.

Peccadillo wrote:

ynwa wrote:

srigooner wrote:You bought Allen for 15 million this summer - although that is still a LOT more digestable than the businesses from the earlier times.

The 'Ox' cost just as much as Allen?

12mil to 15 with add-ons.. and we signed him as a 17 year old.. Allen is 22.

I believe srigooner specified it is a relatively 'digestable' deal and was more pointing to the fact this is an example of a larger picture whereby Liverpool pay absurd amounts for mediocre players (be aware I use the term 'mediocre' relative to the clubs stature). This one (hopefully for liverpool fans) will be one that actually see's a good return for the fee.

Finally!

Is my English really that bad, or am I just not making my point clear enough?

I haven't said even once that Allen was a bad deal. The fee paid for the talent that is Allen is not bad, considering market inflation. Matt Jarvis - 12.5 million, what more can I say?! Remove the market inflation and Allen, at his age and experience, would be 10-12million (this is my personal guess).

The point of bringing him up was to show that inflated market fees have not deterred Liverpool from spending their money. You lot agree that the market is inflated when it comes to British players. Yet you have spent cash on them, while the same cash could have brought much better quality if you had looked at alternatives in markets offering better value for that money. Borini and Coates are good examples in your own case.

And this has nothing to do with Arsenal's transfers or Arsenal's spending. Or Newcastle for that matter.

Peccadillo wrote:12mil to 15 with add-ons.. and we signed him as a 17 year old.. Allen is 22.

I believe srigooner specified it is a relatively 'digestable' deal and was more pointing to the fact this is an example of a larger picture whereby Liverpool pay absurd amounts for mediocre players (be aware I use the term 'mediocre' relative to the clubs stature). This one (hopefully for liverpool fans) will be one that actually see's a good return for the fee.

Not sure your first point is really a debate in your favour. The Ox definitely has potential but so does Allen. And they're two different players to even compare. The prices on them were quite fair though (in terms of British fees go), yes?

No one is defending Commolli's transfers, but it's annoying as f*ck when every transfer target for us is dubbed "overpriced" because Commolli (who was sacked) screwed up two windows on average players. He's not here anymore.

srigooner wrote:
The point of bringing him up was to show that inflated market fees have not deterred Liverpool from spending their money. You lot agree that the market is inflated when it comes to British players. Yet you have spent cash on them, while the same cash could have brought much better quality if you had looked at alternatives in markets offering better value for that money. Borini and Coates are good examples in your own case.

And this has nothing to do with Arsenal's transfers or Arsenal's spending. Or Newcastle for that matter.

We've only signed one "British" player under Rodgers though. No one is defending Commolli's signings.

And no, it doesn't.

ynwa wrote:You're basing rumours as facts.

It's rumoured we're going to spend 20m on Sahin. That doesn't mean we are. For all we know, we're just loaning him on a one year deal with no buy-out clause of the end of it. (As there's another rumour going around that this why the Arsenal talks broke down.)

Before I made the comparison between Allen/Ox nothing about Arsenal and Newcastle was mentioned in terms of transfers...

It's quite clear that we need to improve and recruit players for the final third; but Reds comment is spot on. Sahin will definitely help us in the midfield. Lucas and Gerrard are still coming back from long-term injuries, they could quite easily (knock on wood they don't) re-injure themselves so it's important to have depth as the likes of Shelvey, Henderson and to an extent Suso are all young. Adam and Spearing have no future at the club.

GRRR.. READ!! I said 'reportedly 20 million quid'! Ofcourse, we can discuss this in detail once the transfer is done. I don't see a point in saying the same things over and over.

And scroll back and read earlier comments in the thread. Newcastle and Arsenal comparisons were already made - just that I didn't reply to them earlier.. In case you think I am saying that to you - no, I am saying that to every guy reading this thread and bringing it up again.. You are not the first.. As I said, read earlier comments..

And for the last time, I DID NOT SAY SAHIN WAS A BAD SIGNING.. I merely asked who else are you looking at to tie up in the final week.. I got the answer as Dempsey and another striker.. Nobody had anything on who that striker could be.. So I said moving Andy would be a bad idea for forward numbers without proper players coming in.. I have AGREED and THANKED Red for his comments ffs!

And please - if you don't see a future for Adam and Spearing at the club, I hope you are trying to move on your 'deadwood'.. We are trying to do the same with ours.. And having a frustrating time with it.. (This is not a dig at your club, so don't piss me off by pulling this comment up for sake of argument.)

ynwa wrote:No one is defending Commolli's transfers, but it's annoying as f*ck when every transfer target for us is dubbed "overpriced" because Commolli (who was sacked) screwed up two windows on average players. He's not here anymore.

We've only signed one "British" player under Rodgers though. No one is defending Commolli's signings.

If things had been kept in the spirit of discussion, the signings would never have been brought up, Commolli or otherwise.

If somebody calls my opinion 'deluded', I have a right to defend it. Simple as that.

Lets rewind to where this started.

I ask for an explanation of 'reported 5 million plus 14 million' for a midfielder while you have many, while there is no news on other areas like forwards.
I am called 'deluded'.
I say watch what you type, because Liverpool have been known to have a transfer market profligacy.
Red explains the midfielder situation. BG (or someone) explains the reduction in wages by 300k p/w and Dempsey/another striker.

All other arguments, including the pulling up of transfer fees and signings of other clubs, are irrelevant to this thread and my original question - and show an overwhelming sense of defensiveness from Liverpool fans. I can understand that I pissed you guys off at some point and you wanted to jump in defense of your club, and I would do the same if it was Arsenal. But is my comments are 'deluded' then why the *bleep* do you care anyway.

Anyway. I hope this concludes this topic. I wait eagerly to hear further on Sahin now.