Nuri Sahin - Borussia Dortmund #18

I have never understood why football fans (of any/all clubs) will criticise their current players to justify a potential signing. It's baffling, honestly.



The reality of the matter is that we have a very young midfield, really, and despite the supposed depth, one lacking in serious quality throughout. The starting three (Lucas, Allen, Gerrard) are all very good and probably CL quality, but beyond that it's a different story. Henderson has the potential and is currently a solid option but his confidence is still rather lacking and he needs time to grow into the club (still), Adam just doesn't particularly fit the system regardless of whether he's of the quality needed for this level, Spearing is a decent back-up option but as we saw last season not good enough to start regularly, and Shelvey is still very very young and raw. Gerrard, given his age and previous two seasons, cannot realistically be considered a reliable starter for 60 plus matches while Lucas is also just returning from a massive injury. Having another midfielder who can rotate or start as needed without there being a drop in quality is a no-brainer in this situation. If Gerrard is injured again Sahin can come in directly for him and if Lucas is injured or needs to be protected Sahin can sit beside Allen sharing the extra defensive workload. Beyond that, with the EL, two cups, and League there will be plenty of games for Sahin to rotate with the three starters and Henderson.

The use of wages as an argument for outlay also seems a bit odd to me. yes, we've moved to drastically cut wages this summer and last, but that was wages spent on aging or poor players (Maxi, Kuyt, Bellamy in the former category; Jova and others in the latter). Sahin is neither of those. Beyond that, we are still looking for another forward/wide player to sign, so the funds are still available. The chase for such a player has been on-going since well before the Sahin saga started. The funds for said player have, by nearly all accounts, always been there as we chased Dempsey/Sturridge/everyotherattackerinthemarket so I don't understand why people suddenly think that a loan deal would stop this.

So much of these arguments are based on nothing but speculation and faulty/made up information from reports or other posters. It's both baffling and frustrating to see generally good posters get sucked into the same old pitfalls in logic and reasoning, while others intentionally spin and troll when they know it's against forum rules.

Peccadillo wrote:

srigooner wrote:So you guys are telling me that paying 5million on loan, 14 million for permanent deal and 100k p/w on Sahin is a good move by Liverpool, considering that you have more need for a forward?

I think they key here is "for Liverpool".. When you consider that they paid 15mil for Allen amongst another long list of over-priced british flops, its a great deal for them

Seriously though I think Allen coule become a decent B2B player.. I think there are options there for Rodgers, Sahin wouldn't be surplus to requirements given the gap between starting midefielders and Adam and Spearing.. Also Sahin can be deployed in a full-back position if needed. Versatility never hurts.

Well their transfer fee profligacy is discussed to much already and I don't want to go into that. If they learnt from their mistakes, instead of defending every transfer fee they shell out, then its good for them. If they feel rich as cashico clubs, then thats up to them too. It would be a shame to see Liverpool bankrupt or something, and I hope it never comes to that. 5million for a loan fee is something only Liverpool can do I guess - and its sad if this is aligned with their idea of curbing their losses and expenses. [My turn -> ]

Ofcourse, Sahin is a valuable addition to any team. But I am only asking if it is justified to splurge on him in a summer when they have been trying to cut their spend, while other areas are equally, if not more, pressing.

srigooner wrote:

Peccadillo wrote:

srigooner wrote:So you guys are telling me that paying 5million on loan, 14 million for permanent deal and 100k p/w on Sahin is a good move by Liverpool, considering that you have more need for a forward?

I think they key here is "for Liverpool".. When you consider that they paid 15mil for Allen amongst another long list of over-priced british flops, its a great deal for them

Seriously though I think Allen coule become a decent B2B player.. I think there are options there for Rodgers, Sahin wouldn't be surplus to requirements given the gap between starting midefielders and Adam and Spearing.. Also Sahin can be deployed in a full-back position if needed. Versatility never hurts.

Well their transfer fee profligacy is discussed to much already and I don't want to go into that. If they learnt from their mistakes, instead of defending every transfer fee they shell out, then its good for them. If they feel rich as cashico clubs, then thats up to them too. It would be a shame to see Liverpool bankrupt or something, and I hope it never comes to that. 5million for a loan fee is something only Liverpool can do I guess - and its sad if this is aligned with their idea of curbing their losses and expenses. [My turn -> ]

Ofcourse, Sahin is a valuable addition to any team. But I am only asking if it is justified to splurge on him in a summer when they have been trying to cut their spend, while other areas are equally, if not more, pressing.

Mate....

you do know we have removed 300K a week from wages this summer, and have signed record sponsorship deals with the Kit company, and brands and other partners...eh

The only part of revenue that Arsenal make more money than Liverpool is match-day revenue....in terms of merchandise and marketing, we make hell a lot more money than you guys.

Schweini wrote:ps. I am still 100% sure we'll sign Dempsey. And another striker if Carroll is sold to Newcastle last minute.

I am very confident in Rodgers with transfers, he's been very shrewd so far.

Two things:

* I hope, for your sake, that you do make those signings - but there is less time left than you think. Our last minute shopping experience last summer wasn't sooo awesome.

* I hope you don't pay 30 odd million quid for each of those signings.

srigooner wrote:

Schweini wrote:ps. I am still 100% sure we'll sign Dempsey. And another striker if Carroll is sold to Newcastle last minute.

I am very confident in Rodgers with transfers, he's been very shrewd so far.

Two things:

* I hope, for your sake, that you do make those signings - but there is less time left than you think. Our last minute shopping experience last summer wasn't sooo awesome.

* I hope you don't pay 30 odd million quid for each of those signings.

That idiot Comolli has been sacked....so our negotiation skills are better now :I'munoriginal:

We've tapped Dempsey up, and will probably sign him for 4M in the end. In fact, Dempsey would have been signed by now if Adam would move to London, but his wife is reluctant to move

Carroll, it depends. I still think he will go.

I am very very happy with this summer's business.....Allen and Borini both are on 40k/week, just hope we can move on Adam and Spearing, (and even Downing please).

PS. We have signed Oussama, which will terrorize the fullbacks in BPL, starting on sunday

Schweini wrote:Mate....

you do know we have removed 300K a week from wages this summer, and have signed record sponsorship deals with the Kit company, and brands and other partners...eh

The only part of revenue that Arsenal make more money than Liverpool is match-day revenue....in terms of merchandise and marketing, we make hell a lot more money than you guys.

How does this have anything to do with Arsenal and our finances? You want to throw our poor commercial deals, signed for frontloading the finances for our stadium, on my face to prove that you have money for transfer market profligacy?

I never complained about your commercial deals, I envy the kind of deals you and ManYoo and Bayern have and hope we can get a piece of the pie when our deals come up for renewal - but that is HIGHLY irrelevant for this discussion!

Again, what is the difference between you and Citeh, if you are going to make transfers with absolutely ridiculous fees, and hide behind an alibi of having good enough revenues?

I must reiterate my point again - I am not questioning your finances, I am questioning addressing your needs within the time left. Heck, I don't want to see you guys scarping Europa League, stop reading my posts antagonistically!

The only relevant answers I have got are Dempsey link, hope for another striker and 300k off the wages.

srigooner wrote:
Well their transfer fee profligacy is discussed to much already and I don't want to go into that. If they learnt from their mistakes, instead of defending every transfer fee they shell out, then its good for them. If they feel rich as cashico clubs, then thats up to them too. It would be a shame to see Liverpool bankrupt or something, and I hope it never comes to that. 5million for a loan fee is something only Liverpool can do I guess - and its sad if this is aligned with their idea of curbing their losses and expenses. [My turn -> ]

Ofcourse, Sahin is a valuable addition to any team. But I am only asking if it is justified to splurge on him in a summer when they have been trying to cut their spend, while other areas are equally, if not more, pressing.

I'm not sure I would call it splurging though, I think its a good deal in the sense that (as RedOranje pointed out) it allows enough room in the budget to make that much needed attacking signing. Also, if he has a good season, the option to make it permanent secures Liverpool a quality player come next summer that they ordinarily might miss out on to other clubs.

RedOranje wrote:I have never understood why football fans (of any/all clubs) will criticise their current players to justify a potential signing. It's baffling, honestly.



The reality of the matter is that we have a very young midfield, really, and despite the supposed depth, one lacking in serious quality throughout. The starting three (Lucas, Allen, Gerrard) are all very good and probably CL quality, but beyond that it's a different story. Henderson has the potential and is currently a solid option but his confidence is still rather lacking and he needs time to grow into the club (still), Adam just doesn't particularly fit the system regardless of whether he's of the quality needed for this level, Spearing is a decent back-up option but as we saw last season not good enough to start regularly, and Shelvey is still very very young and raw. Gerrard, given his age and previous two seasons, cannot realistically be considered a reliable starter for 60 plus matches while Lucas is also just returning from a massive injury. Having another midfielder who can rotate or start as needed without there being a drop in quality is a no-brainer in this situation. If Gerrard is injured again Sahin can come in directly for him and if Lucas is injured or needs to be protected Sahin can sit beside Allen sharing the extra defensive workload. Beyond that, with the EL, two cups, and League there will be plenty of games for Sahin to rotate with the three starters and Henderson.

The use of wages as an argument for outlay also seems a bit odd to me. yes, we've moved to drastically cut wages this summer and last, but that was wages spent on aging or poor players (Maxi, Kuyt, Bellamy in the former category; Jova and others in the latter). Sahin is neither of those. Beyond that, we are still looking for another forward/wide player to sign, so the funds are still available. The chase for such a player has been on-going since well before the Sahin saga started. The funds for said player have, by nearly all accounts, always been there as we chased Dempsey/Sturridge/everyotherattackerinthemarket so I don't understand why people suddenly think that a loan deal would stop this.

So much of these arguments are based on nothing but speculation and faulty/made up information from reports or other posters. It's both baffling and frustrating to see generally good posters get sucked into the same old pitfalls in logic and reasoning, while others intentionally spin and troll when they know it's against forum rules.

Now THIS answers some of my questions. Thank you, finally!

srigooner wrote:

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:Please people keep saying we have plenty of players in midfield and whatnot. Spearing and Adam suck a$$, they wouldn't make the bench for teams fighting for relegation. Henderson hasn't done $hit to justify himself as a Liverpool player, other than being young and having potential. Shelvey barely turned 20 and his game is way too inconsistent at the moment. We have only 3 midfielders that are good enough for this season to help fight for top 4. Sahin is needed just as badly as a striker.

No need for that facepalm. If I had to facepalm every time a Liverpool fan made a poorly informed comment about Arsenal, I would have to peel my face off some wall. I already said I want to understand your need better, and there is a more civil way to address that.

As I mentioned, Mole made a logical point about you guys having high wages, low cash and trying to restructure to reduce your wage bill. This has been well publicized this summer. Also well publicized is your need for a quality striker.

With a little over a week left in the summer, are you actively following any strikers? If you are, then good for you. I haven't seen any links on that front. Only thing I have seen is you guys trying to move on Andy Caroll, after so many Liverpool fans gave me lectures about how good he is for you when you signed him. If anything, moving him on leaves you in a worse situation in forward position - in terms of numbers.

I already said this. No matter how many players you have in midfield, there are probably only a handful of teams who Sahin wouldn't improve. Unfortunately, both Arsenal and Liverpool midfields come in the overwhelming majority outside that handful and arguably, Liverpool may benefit more from him than we would.

Again, my point is not why you are signing him. My point is, is all your attention to this one deal justified when there are other, arguably more pressing issues, that you need to address.

I ask because I would rather see Liverpool than cash bags or spuds in contention at the top, because I have more respect for your club. Feel free to facepalm more, if that is not the case.

I knew i should've specified that. The facepalm wasn't directed towards you personally.

please people keep saying we have plenty of players in midfield and whatnot.

It was meant to target the 'people' that comes after 'please', (maybe you're part of that 'people' so indirectly it was directed towards you ) I respect your opinion. In fact what you said there makes perfect sense, but your reasoning is a little off. It shouldn't be that we don't need Sahin because we are well covered in midfield, it should be that the money could possibly have been spent wiser on a ST. I personally feel 5mill + possible 14mill is a bargain for Sahin.

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:I knew i should've specified that. The facepalm wasn't directed towards you personally.

please people keep saying we have plenty of players in midfield and whatnot.

It was meant to target the 'people' that comes after 'please', (maybe you're part of that 'people' so indirectly it was directed towards you ) I respect your opinion. In fact what you said there makes perfect sense, but your reasoning is a little off. It shouldn't be that we don't need Sahin because we are well covered in midfield, it should be that the money could possibly have been spent wiser on a ST. I personally feel 5mill + possible 14mill is a bargain for Sahin.

Yeah its cool.

And I meant the same thing, maybe I should have not gone into the 5million part altogether, but then it felt like ignoring a part of the overall scene. Personally, I would say 15 million for Sahin sounds about fair overall.. Paying 5 and then 14 (rumoured numbers, I know), even for Sahin, is probably a bit high.. But if he is able to contribute massively enough, then it would be very well justified.. Young player -> investment afterall!

Btw, who are these forwards, apart from Dempsey, that you are rumoured to be trying to sign - and what are your chances of completing that in a week?

What paper(s) is(are) reporting the £5m loan fee, out of curiosity?

BBC have included the potential £14m buy-option at the end of the loan but make no mention of a multi-million pound loan fee.

srigooner wrote:

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:I knew i should've specified that. The facepalm wasn't directed towards you personally.

please people keep saying we have plenty of players in midfield and whatnot.

It was meant to target the 'people' that comes after 'please', (maybe you're part of that 'people' so indirectly it was directed towards you ) I respect your opinion. In fact what you said there makes perfect sense, but your reasoning is a little off. It shouldn't be that we don't need Sahin because we are well covered in midfield, it should be that the money could possibly have been spent wiser on a ST. I personally feel 5mill + possible 14mill is a bargain for Sahin.

Yeah its cool.

And I meant the same thing, maybe I should have not gone into the 5million part altogether, but then it felt like ignoring a part of the overall scene. Personally, I would say 15 million for Sahin sounds about fair overall.. Paying 5 and then 14 (rumoured numbers, I know), even for Sahin, is probably a bit high.. But if he is able to contribute massively enough, then it would be very well justified.. Young player -> investment afterall!

Btw, who are these forwards, apart from Dempsey, that you are rumoured to be trying to sign - and what are your chances of completing that in a week?

The media has really no idea who we are actually targeting. In fact, most of us don't even know what's really going on on the business front. From what we know, BR acknowledged that we are very thin up front, and that we are looking to bolster that area by the end of the window. He also said that we have 1/2 targets in mind, and if they don't happen in the summer then possibly January. Chances are getting very slim now that the window is edging closer to its end. But waiting till January without a proper finisher, we'll be out of the top 4 race by then

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:
The media has really no idea who we are actually targeting. In fact, most of us don't even know what's really going on on the business front. From what we know, BR acknowledged that we are very thin up front, and that we are looking to bolster that area by the end of the window. He also said that we have 1/2 targets in mind, and if they don't happen in the summer then possibly January. Chances are getting very slim now that the window is edging closer to its end. But waiting till January without a proper finisher, we'll be out of the top 4 race by then

If Liverpool are managing to guard their cards that well, then it is commendable in times like this. But somehow, it is also worrying if there are actually no targets you are close to. You woul need some 10 game winning streak to catch up with Cashico clubs and ManYoo by end of January.. If anything, the league just got a whole lot tougher this year..

Posted this sometime back

Spoiler:

Sahin made a not so pleasant comment about Newcastle and Liverpool. I doubt he'd want to permanently stay at Liverpool even if there's a clause to make the deal permanent, which I strongly believe there isn't. Especially if they fail to qualify for the Champions League again this season.

Unless, of course, working consistently with the likes of Gerrard, Reina, Suarez, Agger, Lucas, etc changes his opinion on the idea that Liverpool do not have quality players... and/or he comes to believe in the "project" (god I'm getting sick of that word) at the club.

buddytaller wrote:Posted this sometime back

Spoiler:

Sahin made a not so pleasant comment about Newcastle and Liverpool. I doubt he'd want to permanently stay at Liverpool even if there's a clause to make the deal permanent, which I strongly believe there isn't. Especially if they fail to qualify for the Champions League again this season.

That was a fake article.U are too slow on the news

Are there are genuinely deluded people who believe we will pay 5 mil loan fee

Seriously the amount of people believe in these attention seeking ITK's

BeautifulGame wrote:

buddytaller wrote:Posted this sometime back

Spoiler:

Sahin made a not so pleasant comment about Newcastle and Liverpool. I doubt he'd want to permanently stay at Liverpool even if there's a clause to make the deal permanent, which I strongly believe there isn't. Especially if they fail to qualify for the Champions League again this season.

That was a fake article.U are too slow on the news

Forget that story and no disrespect but I find it hard to believe any Madrid player would chose to play for Liverpool instead of Madrid. Sahin has aspirations, he want to play at the biggest stage and sadly Liverpool can't afford him that.

That was my opinion but the fact is that Mourinho still considers Sahin a vital part of Madrid's future and is sending him on loan to the EPL to toughen him. He's coming to Liverpool because Arsenal insisted on purchasing him at the end of the season, something Madrid does not agree to.

buddytaller wrote:

BeautifulGame wrote:

buddytaller wrote:Posted this sometime back

Spoiler:

Sahin made a not so pleasant comment about Newcastle and Liverpool. I doubt he'd want to permanently stay at Liverpool even if there's a clause to make the deal permanent, which I strongly believe there isn't. Especially if they fail to qualify for the Champions League again this season.

That was a fake article.U are too slow on the news

Forget that story and no disrespect but I find it hard to believe any Madrid player would chose to play for Liverpool instead of Madrid. Sahin has aspirations, he want to play at the biggest stage and sadly Liverpool can't afford him that.

That was my opinion but the fact is that Mourinho still considers Sahin a vital part of Madrid's future and is sending him on loan to the EPL to toughen him. He's coming to Liverpool because Arsenal insisted on purchasing him at the end of the season, something Madrid does not agree to.

Yes who denies that? I only commented on that article.I personally dont believe there is a buy-out clause even though BBC are reporting it.

And Sahin will return to Madrid and Alonso will return back to Liverpool next season where he rightfully belongs.That was the real deal all along

The bbc article saying we have 14mil buy-out clause

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19364375

Alonso returning to Liverpool is even less likely than Sahin staying, honestly.

what is ITK??? I really don't know

ITK - In the Know or in other words Attention seeking twitter whores

BeautifulGame wrote:Are there are genuinely deluded people who believe we will pay 5 mil loan fee

Seriously the amount of people believe in these attention seeking ITK's

Generally, people would not have believed this to be true. But this is Liverpool we are talking about. Do you really want me to pull up all those numbers you guys have paid again in the last two years again? And don't tell me things have changed with Comoli sacking. You bought Allen for 15 million this summer - although that is still a LOT more digestable than the businesses from the earlier times. You don't need people to be deluded, you need your club to stop throwing money around. The market inflation due to oil money is bad enough.

I am sorry I have to pull this comment up, but I thought this topic of Liverpool's finances was discussed and closed earlier in the thread. Calling names doesn't help after that.

Would suck if he goes to that rats nest that is Liverpool.

Hope he ends up at Arsenal

Why bring up the Allen deal? The price paid was 15m because that was his buy-out clause and the club couldn't have approached him otherwise. It's a completely isolated and unrelated case to other transfers. And for every £18m Downing there's a £6m Coates. People love to play up the couple of big-money deals but at the same time ignore the actual atmosphere surrounding them. Fact is, paying £20m for an English winger who was his club's player of the season and supposedly in his prime is much closer to current market value than most would be willing to admit. Liverpool's deals certainly weren't good (especially in hindsight, which everyone uses while ignoring what was said at the time) but they were and are fairly accurate representations of how ridiculous the current market is. Newcastle's deal are more then exception than the rule.