R9 (Pre-injury) vs Messi

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Wtf is this shit? People actually trying to say Ronaldo had better service than messi? Comparing the forgettable barca team he played in with the best attacking team in their history? Really? Really?

Oh shit he played with the great Giovanni, I forgot about that, the Giovanni that wasn't even a nailed on starter for the team. Oh he played with guardiola? The defensive minded guardiola that formed a defensive minded partnership with popescu, yeah they were a great help for scoring goals....

Messi has xavi, Ronaldo had De la pena, messi has iniesta, ronaldo had Giovanni, messi has bouquets, Ronaldo had pep, this is not even a contest. Your direct assists nonsense belongs in a bin

Dude, If Messi had played in Ronaldo's team I have no doubt he would have scored over 80 goals. ffs that Barcelona team played on teh counter attack. The games where the opposition sat back Ronaldo was pretty ineffective bar a few neat tricks. Messi would absolutely abuse the space that teams left. And in tighter games he would have been better. Messi is better than R9 ever was. And in games where Messi is shackled he still contributes in some way, something I can't say about r9

Nah, the reason messi scored 80 + goals is that Barcelona dominate almost every game. Every game it's the same story, this gives messi opportunities to score even when he doesn't play well. I watched a game a while a go barca won 5-0 or something like that and messi did nothing during the game, one of his absent without leave performances, but still bagged two goals, nothing special, the goals were handed to him, barca dominated, scored a bag full of goal without any messi brilliance, and the dude scored 2 without even doing anything, say what you want but that kind of dominance inevitably leads to stad padding

Seriously, he's a great scorer but let's not pretend that he isn't a kid in a candy shop

A. Maradona, In 1997 Ronaldo also had Figo and Luis Enrique, pretty big names you left out.

B. Jibbers I think your over-selling it a little, we did not play on the counter attack. Go watch 1997 Copa del Rey vs Atletico (one of the best games I ever seen by the way)...it was very equal, both strong teams...we had alot of the ball, we aimed to control the game.

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Nah, the reason messi scored 80 + goals is that Barcelona dominate almost every game. Every game it's the same story, this gives messi opportunities to score even when he doesn't play well. I watched a game a while a go barca won 5-0 or something like that and messi did nothing during the game, one of his absent without leave performances, but still bagged two goals, nothing special, the goals were handed to him, barca dominated, scored a bag full of goal without any messi brilliance, and the dude scored 2 without even doing anything, say what you want but that kind of dominance inevitably leads to stad padding

Seriously, he's a great scorer but let's not pretend that he isn't a kid in a candy shop

Messi is the reason we dominate ffs, dont be silly.

Just because he didnt score a wonderful goal in that one off game doesnt mean anything. He nearly always has a large impact in games , he touches the ball more than any of forward in history because he is constantly dropping off the front. He overloads the midfield, a large reason why we dominate the games.

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Nah, the reason messi scored 80 + goals is that Barcelona dominate almost every game. Every game it's the same story, this gives messi opportunities to score even when he doesn't play well. I watched a game a while a go barca won 5-0 or something like that and messi did nothing during the game, one of his absent without leave performances, but still bagged two goals, nothing special, the goals were handed to him, barca dominated, scored a bag full of goal without any messi brilliance, and the dude scored 2 without even doing anything, say what you want but that kind of dominance inevitably leads to stad padding

Seriously, he's a great scorer but let's not pretend that he isn't a kid in a candy shop

my point is that messi is superiro to r9, perhaps any player in history in extremely tight spaces (bar Diego possibly). R9 had so much space to exploit because of the way sir bobby played (Barcelona fans hated it). Go and watch the games R9 played for Barcelonal, the space he had was ridiculous. Go and rewatch Barcelona under Pep. messi scored 38 from the wings ffs, before teams started sitting back. In tight spaces R9 would be nowhere as effective. He would get crouded out. Messi has better close control is smaller and can wriggle through defences better than 'peak' R9 ever did for his one glorious season in Spain! Considering that the spaces in between the lines in la liga is actually less than back then...

The Franchise wrote:A. Maradona, In 1997 Ronaldo also had Figo and Luis Enrique, pretty big names you left out.

B. Jibbers I think your over-selling it a little, we did not play on the counter attack. Go watch 1997 Copa del Rey vs Atletico (one of the best games I ever seen by the way)...it was very equal, both strong teams...we had alot of the ball, we aimed to control the game.

Yea obviously, he couldnt change it completely as some fo the players explained that they had a way of playing, my point still stands tbh. If I rmemeber correctly r9 didnt play that first game and look at the way they tried to play in the second leg.

TBH this is deviating from the point. Messi is a betetr footballer than r9. Has had better seasosn than R( and has been far more consistent, the IFs and buts are irrelevant. Only thing R9 had over Messi was his strength which Messi counters by havibg ridicuoous centre of balance

Ronaldo didn't score more than year because the team didn't play only for him, and werent' half as good. Nobody said in interviews stuff like "Messi scored that goal, not me" like Sanchez did last season.

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Well I have never discussed the two players, its pointless because half the people here probably hasnt seen Ronaldo's best and most of the others are just sayings things for the sake of it.

I dont agree thats all Ronaldo had over him though.

Ronaldo was also faster, more dangerous at running into spaces and can finish with both feet.

He was also physically better, which often is overrated but has some practical use.




That would never happen to R9, he would of brushed Essien aside and it would likely end in goal given his power and superior speed over 10m+ distances.

As I said many times before, Messi is better, he has finishing, goalscoring and dribbling just like Ronaldo had..but he also has reached a high level in terms of creating goals, thats what seperates the two at their best.

They have things over each other in other areas, but these are minor things.

likeastar wrote:Ronaldo didn't score more than year because the team didn't play only for him, and werent' half as good. Nobody said in interviews stuff like "Messi scored that goal, not me" like Sanchez did last season.

No, your just waffling. Ronaldo didnt score more because he didnt score more. Thats it.

Thats not the reason Messi is better anyway, the number of goals is inimportant. Both scored so many it dont even matter.

The Franchise wrote:Well I have never discussed the two players, its pointless because half the people here probably hasnt seen Ronaldo's best and most of the others are just sayings things for the sake of it.


Well I have never discussed the two players, its pointless because half the people here probably hasnt seen Ronaldo's best and most of the others are just sayings things for the sake of it.

I dont agree thats all Ronaldo had over him though.

Ronaldo was also faster, more dangerous at running into spaces and can finish with both feet.

He was also physically better, which often is overrated but has some practical use.




That would never happen to R9, he would of brushed Essien aside and it would likely end in goal given his power and superior speed over 10m+ distances.

As I said many times before, Messi is better, he has finishing, goalscoring and dribbling just like Ronaldo had..but he also has reached a high level in terms of creating goals, thats what seperates the two at their best.

They have things over each other in other areas, but these are minor things.

Consistency as well.... for me the biggest seperator as I said in the other thread

I agree that messi is better than a 19/20 year old ronaldo. But ronaldo simply did not have the kind of support messi has, not even close. It's not even simply the quality of players he plays with, it's their style, they suit messi down to the ground, short fast passes are a massive part of his game and he can play pinball with them such Is their passing quality, he can fire the ball at them and they will lay it back to him perfectly 9/10 thus opening space for him. He's scored countless goals like this

Franchise that wasn't a one off and you know it, I've been at the barca section and seen you slamming some of messis performances where he actually scored. My point there is over a year, you aren't going to play well every game, but for messi even when he doesn't he still scores, that won't happen without his team having about 80% of the ball and almost complete territorial advantage, his end of year tally won't end up around 80/90 that's my point really. as for messi being the reason you dominate, one player can never dominate no matter how good he is, it's the team, yeah he contributes to it, but it is the team

As big of a Ronaldo fanboy as I am, I dont see how anyone can pick over Messi here

He influences the game way more, he brings his teammates into the game far better, and he's more flexible...a better all-around player, really --- So if I am building a club right now, I choose Messi no doubt

But if I already had myself a solid team and was just looking for a finisher to be the missing piece in the puzzle, then I would pick Ronaldo over Messi..For example if I was a Juve fan I'd prefer R9 over Messi, but in most cases it would be the opposite

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:I agree that messi is better than a 19/20 year old ronaldo. But ronaldo simply did not have the kind of support messi has, not even close. It's not even simply the quality of players he plays with, it's their style, they suit messi down to the ground, short fast passes are a massive part of his game and he can play pinball with them such Is their passing quality, he can fire the ball at them and they will lay it back to him perfectly 9/10 thus opening space for him. He's scored countless goals like this

Franchise that wasn't a one off and you know it, I've been at the barca section and seen you slamming some of messis performances where he actually scored. My point there is over a year, you aren't going to play well every game, but for messi even when he doesn't he still scores, that won't happen without his team having about 80% of the ball and almost complete territorial advantage, his end of year tally won't end up around 80/90 that's my point really. as for messi being the reason you dominate, one player can never dominate no matter how good he is, it's the team, yeah he contributes to it, but it is the team

My point isnt that he only had one game where he didnt score a special goal..my point is, even in those games he does "nothing" and scores a goal..he is STILL the reason we win...because his impact goes far beyond what he does on the ball in one particular game.

As I said, no forward gets as many touches as him, because he is constantly overloading the midfield. He is doing something even great players dont do...he scores goals comparable to any 9 you can name...and on top of that he has control over games by dropping deep, overloading the midfield, keeping the ball, finding team mates and creating chance...and he does that like an elite level 10.

He is doing the job of 2 players...and not just any 2 players, two elite players. Only a handful, actually less, have done that.

You keep saying, well look at his team, look how much it dominates...but your refusing to see just how much he is the reason for that domination.

Elite level 9s don't score 90 goals in a year. There is more to it than that, even if you add on the great individual goals he scored it still wouldn't be 90. To score 90 you have to have a great set up working for you.

Many goals he scores aren't great intelligence positionally that a 9 shows, it's flat out walking the ball into the net because his opponents are tired/demorilsed at being dominated and ripped apart for 90 minutes

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Elite level 9s don't score 90 goals in a year. There is more to it than that, even if you add on the great individual goals he scored it still wouldn't be 90. To score 90 you have to have a great set up working for you.

Muller scored a ton of goals so thats not true.

Ronaldo never played in the amount of games Messi did so of course it isnt possible to reach that.

You score 90 if you play many many games and you are as good as Messi....clearly, noone else is.

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Many goals he scores aren't great intelligence positionally that a 9 shows, it's flat out walking the ball into the net because his opponents are tired/demorilsed at being dominated and ripped apart for 90 minutes

Your just waffling tbh.

Again, the reason they are like that is because of Messi and his team.

Yep, I agree. Not because of messi, because of messi and his team. Which is my point from the start.

So you both agree Messi is better, what are you even arguing about?

likeastar wrote:Ronaldo didn't score more than year because the team didn't play only for him, and werent' half as good. Nobody said in interviews stuff like "Messi scored that goal, not me" like Sanchez did last season.

So because Alexis was asked if he touched the ball(which he didn't) and said no messi scored we must believe the team is 100% commited to only letting him score?

@jibers Whether he would score 90 goals in a year if his team wasn't as dominant in games as Barcelona have been recently. I don't think he would.

What ifs are stupid, it's either he did or he didn't, no one can predict what would happen.

R9 in a 80% possession based side.... *drool*

Ronaldo had superior goalscoring potential than Messi, that's completely out of question. 47 goals in 49 games = 0.96 goals per game. That's the same goalscoring ratio as Messi's in 2010 / 2011 (53 goals in 55 games) but Ronaldo did it when he was just 19 (Messi 23), many years before maturing nevermind peaking, in a team that was nowhere near as good as this current Barcelona team in a completely new league and La Liga era that wasn't so massively dominated by the Barca-Madrid duopoly. Nowadays you could easily build a team of Barca and Madrid bench players and they'd easily finish on top of every La Liga team except Barca and Madrid themselves. Higuain, Villa, Sanchez, Modric, Song, Kaka, Mascherano, Coentrao, Thiago, Adriano etc. Fss. On the other hand just look at the La Liga table in 1998:

1. Barca: 74
2. Athletic Bilbao: 65
3. Real Madrid: 63
4. Real Sociedad: 63
5. Mallorca: 60
6. Celta Vigo: 60
7. Atletico Madrid: 60
8. Real Betis: 59

Half of the league was competing for 2nd place.

Would Ronaldo also have scored 91 goals in 69 games? Well, that's a goalscoring ratio of 1.32 goals per game. Ronaldo had 0.96 at the age just 19. Do we think that Ronaldo had reached his maximum at just 19? Obviously not, NO ONE peaks at 19. Messi at 19 was scoring 15 goals in a season. Plastic Ronaldo was scoring 9. A matured 25 year old Ronaldo (without *bleep* knees) in this Barcelona team in this La Liga era would have totally reached those numbers, no doubt.

Tbh, I don't know why this is even a debate. Let's ignore Messi for a second. Plastic Ronaldo is also scoring 60+ goals in a season and I wouldn't be surprised if he actually went on to chase Messi's record this year, having scored 10 goals in January alone already. Are we then going to pretend that Plastic Ronaldo is the second greatest goalscorer of all time? How many shots does he get to take again per game? 7? 8? 9?

This whole discussion is a bit pointless though because pre-injury Ronaldo only existed until about 99 anyway. So we're basically comparing peak Messi vs. kid Ronaldo.

^ Messi had lower numbers on stats considering he was a winger until after Henry and Eto left he moved to the center perm. whilst Ronaldo sticked to the center since his young career, like I said though whats the point in claiming if R9 had Messi's team he'd score X amount of numbers we are not fortune tellers no one would know.

futbol wrote:Would Ronaldo also have scored 91 goals in 69 games? Well, that's a goalscoring ratio of 1.32 goals per game. Ronaldo had 0.96 at the age just 19. Do we think that Ronaldo had reached his maximum at just 19? Obviously not, NO ONE peaks at 19.

Pele had his best scoring season at the age 18 (75 goals), which nullifies your whole post, and the general argument in one sweep.