How Much better is Spain's second team compared to England's first team ?

dostoevsky wrote:Definitely, though it will be an unusually brave move to invest in such an idea without a clear direction first for the national team and a lot of that will come down to the next coach. Investment must be in a style that the coaches hired by the FA are comfortable implementing and are comfortable tampering with in training to get the best out of the team, however uncertainty over the coaching staff or simply inflexibility in their eventual choice could make the plan futile. Coaching in England has to grow at the same time as the idea, so it truly is a ten or twelve year solution which will yield results as Germany and Spain have found, however as I said, it was a brave decision. Whether England have the patience is another matter entirely however. Realistically, I believe that the existing talent pool will simply be pointed to in order to justify the status quo, however eventually administration of talent on the most basic levels will need to change as well.

Indeed. I guess that is the main problem.

Germany and Spain were actually specially cases in that. Spain had the time for a long term plan as no one really expected them to do well in any case (they were known as tournament chokers for a long time after all) , and so they had all the time in the world to live with draw backs and not so good games in the beginning. Germany on the other hand never really failed, no matter how bad the players and problematic the beginnings of the new system - I mean, they were always 2nd or 3rd in WC and EC, even when they had neither plan nor players XD

England has the problem that press and fans always expect them to win for some reason. Of course they usually choked early, but for some strange reason that never hindered the press/fans to expect their team to be world beaters anyway. I think that expectation needs to be changed - they should be given time for development even if things do now run so well right away.

I've never really thought England had issues with the players/talent it's more the coaching and playing style as mentioned.

You look at England a few years back and they were failing with many players playing very well like Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Ferdinand, Cole, Terry but they just couldn't put it together.

Iceman wrote:IMHO, the U-21 have done that. They've implemented a philosophy and are still building on it, but you can see that they have a definite style and are doing very well. At least the players look like they know what they're doing, instead of looking like a bunch of players thrown together into one big mess on the pitch

Well, then let's hope that for one the U21 boys can manage to transit to the seniors for once. The German U21 of 2009 almost completele got into the senior team one year later. It was sad to see that the English U21 of 2009 wasn't that lucky.

Well, there aren't that many English coaches in the Premier League:

Arsene Wenger - French
Alex McCleish - Socttish
Steve Kean - Scottish
Own Coyle - Irish
Andre Villas Boas - Portugese
David Moyes - Scottish
Martin Jol - Dutch
Kenny Dalglish - Scottish
Roberto Mancini - Italian
Sir Alex Ferguson - Scottish
Alan Pardew - English
Paul Lambert - Scottish
Neil Warnock - English
Tony Pulis - Welsh
Steve Bruce - English
Bredan Rodgers - Northern Irish
Harry Redknapp - English
Roy Hodgson - English
Roberto Martinez - Spanish
Nick McCarthy - Irish

So we can have an elite consultation on the future of England's national team with Alan Pardew, Neil Warnock, Steve Bruce, Harry Rednapp and Roy Hodgson? The future is in good hands.

Iceman wrote:

Idrisozet wrote:

Iceman wrote:@Rwo:

He said that EPL is "killing" the NT. Out of the players I mentioned, these ones are getting first team action weekly in the EPL when they are fit:
Rodwell
Richards
Wilshere
Sturridge
Albrighton
Jones/Smalling
Henderson
Wickham
Walker
Gibbs

Some of the rest are either playing in lower leagues or the reserves, but the majority are playing in the EPL.

As for your point, I agree with you. The media pressure is staggering. That was the main problem with most Arsenal fans when Jack started playing for the NT - That he would get crushed if he didn't perform well. The media love to blame everything on the youngsters/new faces when England lose.
The whole setup on the senior level does not help any youngsters prove their worth or get a fair chance; however, if you take a look at the U-21, it's a completely different story. They are actually doing extremely well, and are one of the more talented sides. The problem is in the transition from the U-21 to the big team. That's where it all goes wrong.

Edit* Can't believe I forgot to name Alex Oxlade Chamberlain

Check out my list, you will see what I am talking about, except for Wilshere no player in your list can boast of regular call up with English National team, (Mind you Wilshere has on 5 caps, his not even that important)

Unlike most players in my list like, Muller(23cap 8goals), Kroos(21cap 1goal), Oezil(28cap 7Goals), Gotze(10cap 2Goals), Howedes(5cap), Badstuber(16cap), Hummels(10cap), Boateng(17), André Schürrle(10caps 5Goals) Marin(16cap 1 goal) etc

They are all important national team and club players, some of them have played in World Cup with the best of the best(Group stage, Semi Final & 3d place) Champions League (Final, Semi Final etc), Europa cup.

Also they are most likely to play in the up coming European Cup and Champions league, maybe even play in CPL Final(Oezil, Muller, Kroos, Badstuber,)

I hope you get the difference between my list and yours, my consist of proven talent playing at top level, while yours consist of unproven young players with potentials who play in reserve or division 2(except for few)

Uhm, what does this have to do with the EPL though? The general consensus is that England need to start using their young players and start incorporating them into the International side, and I never argued otherwise.

Firstly, MOST of the players on my list are playing in the EPL. Only a few of them aren't. You depicted it as the other way around, which is false.
Secondly, a lot of the players that I listed have either already played in the CL or are bound to play in it (Introducing Jack Wilshere, Daniel Sturridge, Micah Richards, Alex Oxlade Chamberlain, Gibbs, Smalling, Jones, Walker)
My list has about as many talented players who have been playing at the top level as yours does; You just don't see it.

Your original statement was that the EPL is what's holding the NT back, which is simply not true at all.

I didn't just talk about playing in CPL and World cup, most players in my list have played in world cup, Semi final, 3rd place etc, Cpl League Semi final and Finals etc, also they are important players for the national team who will definitely play in the up coming European Competition unlike players in your list who will not even get called up(maybe never).

It's like your are working on assumption and presumption while I am working on the past and reality.

Don't know if you see what I did there..?

There is nothing there to see, Most of those players in your list may never ever ever play in top level like players like Oezil, Muller, Kroos etc who all played and will still be playing in World cup, European Cup and Cpl Final & Semi-Final and every important competition out there and going all the way to Semi-Final and Finals.

If you don't see how the EPL is killing the National team, then I don't know what else you can see, too many foreign players.

Again with the NT appearances....
The players I mentioned have been playing in the EPL, one of the best leagues in the world, and a lot of them have played in the CL as well. Their clubs- the EPL clubs- have helped them to do so. The fact that they have not been picked to play in the NT has NOTHING to do with the EPL. If you read the rest of the thread, you'll realize that the problem stems from something more fundamental. If you are never picked to play for the NT, how can you blame the club or the EPL?
It's not the EPL's fault. You have yet to provide a relation between the EPL and the reason these talented youngsters don't get called up.

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Idrisozet wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:Neuer is Germany's only keeper better than Hart.

Does that mean Hart=Casilas

Even if Neuer is better than Casillias are you saying all other keepers are the same lmao?

No my point was Casilas, Reina, Valdez and maybe Da Gea are better than Hart which also means, Neuer, Adler, Wiese, and Maybe Ron-Robert Zieler, Marc-André ter Stegen, Roman Weidenfeller and Leno are better than Hart.

If Hart is as better than Adler that means his almost on thesame level with Casillas, which his clearly not

Idrisozet wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:

Idrisozet wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:Neuer is Germany's only keeper better than Hart.

Does that mean Hart=Casilas

Even if Neuer is better than Casillias are you saying all other keepers are the same lmao?

No my point was Casilas, Reina, Valdez and maybe Da Gea are better than Hart which also means, Neuer, Adler, Wiese, and Maybe Ron-Robert Zieler, Marc-André ter Stegen, Roman Weidenfeller and Leno are better than Hart.

If Hart is as better than Adler that means his almost on thesame level with Casillas, which his clearly not

You can argue all day about which keeper is better, but Hart is a good keeper whether you'd like to admit it or not.

GoonerJay29 wrote:Well, there aren't that many English coaches in the Premier League:

Arsene Wenger - French
Alex McCleish - Socttish
Steve Kean - Scottish
Own Coyle - Irish
Andre Villas Boas - Portugese
David Moyes - Scottish
Martin Jol - Dutch
Kenny Dalglish - Scottish
Roberto Mancini - Italian
Sir Alex Ferguson - Scottish
Alan Pardew - English
Paul Lambert - Scottish
Neil Warnock - English
Tony Pulis - Welsh
Steve Bruce - English
Bredan Rodgers - Northern Irish
Harry Redknapp - English
Roy Hodgson - English
Roberto Martinez - Spanish
Nick McCarthy - Irish

So we can have an elite consultation on the future of England's national team with Alan Pardew, Neil Warnock, Steve Bruce, Harry Rednapp and Roy Hodgson? The future is in good hands.

Dude Hodgson is old and his not the future but I get your point, Maybe they should sack Capello and hire Rednapp that man is heavily undermine and under-rated.

Funny how there are more Scottish coach in EPL than English coach, thanks for bringing that to my attention

I was actually being sarcastic in that post.

Iceman wrote:

Again with the NT appearances....
The players I mentioned have been playing in the EPL, one of the best leagues in the world, and a lot of them have played in the CL as well. Their clubs- the EPL clubs- have helped them to do so. The fact that they have not been picked to play in the NT has NOTHING to do with the EPL. If you read the rest of the thread, you'll realize that the problem stems from something more fundamental. If you are never picked to play for the NT, how can you blame the club or the EPL?
It's not the EPL's fault. You have yet to provide a relation between the EPL and the reason these talented youngsters don't get called up.

So do you mean English talent equals Germany.

keep ignoring my point

lszanto wrote:You can argue all day about which keeper is better, but Hart is a good keeper whether you'd like to admit it or not.

The big problem again is the lack of depth in the GK position. Hart is fine, yeah. But after him there is a long time nothing. Green was pretty much burned at the WC2010 - with the stick he got for his fumble in the USA match it is astonishing he dared to get back into any goal. David James is getting too old now, and I'm not sure whether he officially retired from the NT by now (did he?). So whom do you have who can actually be considered a good enough keeper for the NT? Scott Carson? Ben Foster?

Why was Germany inserted into a thread about England and Spain?

That seems to have derailed this thread a bit.

Your point doesn't exist. The EPL is not at fault for anything. Wilshere, who is as equally talented as Goetze is (if not more, according to some), has only 5 caps as you said yourself. How is this the EPL's fault?
Players like Smalling, Jones, Sturridge etc. are some of the best talents out there. Sturridge was bossing the Premier League last season with Bolton, but he is not getting the reward for his work on the NT level. How is this the EPL's fault?
You have not shown any relation. If anything, you've shown the complete opposite.

McLewis wrote:Why was Germany inserted into a thread about England and Spain?

That seems to have derailed this thread a bit.

If you haven't noticed, Germany has been inserted into almost every single thread in the GS..

Iceman wrote:Your point doesn't exist. The EPL is not at fault for anything. Wilshere, who is as equally talented as Goetze is (if not more, according to some), has only 5 caps as you said yourself. How is this the EPL's fault?
Players like Smalling, Jones, Sturridge etc. are some of the best talents out there. Sturridge was bossing the Premier League last season with Bolton, but he is not getting the reward for his work on the NT level. How is this the EPL's fault?
You have not shown any relation. If anything, you've shown the complete opposite.

So do you mean NT appearance don't *bleep*, would you play Micah Richard in place of Johnson, or Jones in place of Terry.?

I will definitely not play McEachran for Lampard, or Gibbs for Ashley Cole, or Smalling for Ferdinand, Sturridge none for Rooney, those player have no legitimate claim for the current English squad position.

Please I dont even want to mention

Lansbury
Rodwell
Afobe
Aneke
Walker
Albrighton
Shelvey
Kelly
Wickham

They can not challenge any player in English national team, because they are simply not good enough, If you get where I am coming from you'll understand that England is not able to produce young talent that will legitimately challenge or bench already established stars, unlike in Germany where you have Young players like Schurrle giving almighty Podolski a run for his money, and Ballack has long been drop, Mertesacker is also facing strong challenge from about 4 young talent and is only a matter of time before his dropped.

keep ignoring my point and pretend you dont like know that it's the EPL fault that English National team do not have young talent capable of benching the supposed Golden Generation, because they spend loads of money buying establish foreign players instead of investing in youth academy like Spain, Germany and Netherlands are doing

Some saw fit to point out the obvious, which was that German talent is surperior to English talent at this moment in time.

More to the point of this thread, though:

The big problem again is the lack of depth in the GK position. Hart is fine, yeah. But after him there is a long time nothing. Green was pretty much burned at the WC2010 - with the stick he got for his fumble in the USA match it is astonishing he dared to get back into any goal. David James is getting too old now, and I'm not sure whether he officially retired from the NT by now (did he?). So whom do you have who can actually be considered a good enough keeper for the NT? Scott Carson? Ben Foster?

This country has a history of not producing great goalkeepers. Ever since David Seaman retried, we've gone through Paul Robinson, Scott Carson, Chris Kirkland, David James, Robert Green and Ben Foster. Robinson was decent, as was James, surprisingly, but the others never looked comfortable at international level.

Depth in this position is pretty apalling. For example, in the current squad we have Joe Hart, David Stockdale, currently plying his trade for Ipswich in the Championship and Jason Steele and Scott Carson, currently playing for Bursaspor, of all teams.

In comparison to Spain, we don't even compare. They have Casillas, Valdes, Reina as they three options, plus young keepers like De Gea and Asenjo. Our young options have been Frankie Fielding and Jason Steele, netheir of which are high calibre talents. Jack Butland is the best talent we have, but whether or not he'll get opportunities at Birmingham remains to be seen.

I will definitely not play McEachran for Lampard, or Gibbs for Ashley Cole, or Smalling for Ferdinand, Sturridge none for Rooney, those player have no legitimate claim for the current English squad position.

Please I dont even want to mention

Lansbury
Rodwell
Afobe
Aneke
Walker
Albrighton
Shelvey
Kelly
Wickham

They can not challenge any player in English national team, because they are simply not good enough

This is only a little bit ignorant.

Gibbs is the best young left back in the country and is Cole's natural successor. Likewise Smalling, one of the best central defensive talents in the country and is very close to booting Ferdinand out the side by domestically and internationally.

Sturridge wouldn't even displace Rooney. He'd replace the likes of Defoe, Crouch, Zamora, etc.

And all three players are regulars for their clubs, too. They do have a legitimate claim for the national team.

Also, I bet you've never watched any of those players on that list, and yet you claim they're not good enough or won't be the national side. On what basis?

GoonerJay29 wrote:

I will definitely not play McEachran for Lampard, or Gibbs for Ashley Cole, or Smalling for Ferdinand, Sturridge none for Rooney, those player have no legitimate claim for the current English squad position.

Please I dont even want to mention

Lansbury
Rodwell
Afobe
Aneke
Walker
Albrighton
Shelvey
Kelly
Wickham

They can not challenge any player in English national team, because they are simply not good enough

This is only a little bit ignorant.

Gibbs is the best young left back in the country and is Cole's natural successor. Likewise Smalling, one of the best central defensive talents in the country and is very close to booting Ferdinand out the side by domestically and internationally.

Sturridge wouldn't even displace Rooney. He'd replace the likes of Defoe, Crouch, Zamora, etc.

And all three players are regulars for their clubs, too. They do have a legitimate claim for the national team.

Also, I bet you've never watched any of those players on that list, and yet you claim they're not good enough or won't be the national side. On what basis?

I ask you just one simple question.

WOULD YOU PLAY GIBBS IN PLACE OF COLE....?

Idrisozet wrote:

Iceman wrote:Your point doesn't exist. The EPL is not at fault for anything. Wilshere, who is as equally talented as Goetze is (if not more, according to some), has only 5 caps as you said yourself. How is this the EPL's fault?
Players like Smalling, Jones, Sturridge etc. are some of the best talents out there. Sturridge was bossing the Premier League last season with Bolton, but he is not getting the reward for his work on the NT level. How is this the EPL's fault?
You have not shown any relation. If anything, you've shown the complete opposite.

So do you mean NT appearance don't *bleep*, would you play Micah Richard in place of Johnson, or Jones in place of Terry.?

I will definitely not play McEachran for Lampard, or Gibbs for Ashley Cole, or Smalling for Ferdinand, Sturridge none for Rooney, those player have no legitimate claim for the current English squad position.

Please I dont even want to mention

Lansbury
Rodwell
Afobe
Aneke
Walker
Albrighton
Shelvey
Kelly
Wickham

They can not challenge any player in English national team, because they are simply not good enough, If you get where I am coming from you'll understand that England is not able to produce young talent that will legitimately challenge or bench already established stars, unlike in Germany where you have Young players like Schurrle giving almighty Podolski a run for his money, and Ballack has long been drop, Mertesacker is also facing strong challenge from about 4 young talent and is only a matter of time before his dropped.

keep ignoring my point and pretend you dont like know that it's the EPL fault that English National team do not have young talent capable of benching the supposed Golden Generation, because they spend loads of money buying establish foreign players instead of investing in youth academy like Spain, Germany and Netherlands are doing

Wilshere can give any midfielder in the world a run for his money, but he only has 5 caps.
I WOULD play Richards instead of Johnson
Terry is better than most of the CBs that Germany has, I'm sad to say, so there's no surprise in why he's still playing. Also, guess who was given the chance to play for the NT? Players like Jagielka and Cahill. While both very good players, Smalling and Jones should be playing instead. But they aren't
From the players that are good enough, and the ones that have really shined for the U-21, such as McEachran, Wilshere, Sturridge, Lansbury, AoC, Albrighton, Walker and Gibbs, none of them have been given the chance. Like Rwo was saying, most of the U-21 of the 2009 German team has become part of the NT, but in England these players aren't even given the chance. When Sturridge was ripping the defenses apart in the EPL last season, where was his call-up, for example?
How long did it take for Wilshere to get a call-up?

The players aren't even getting chances. As Jay said, have you even seen the rest of the other players? Because you seem to be dismissing them regardless of everything. They are new names for you and so, by default, you ignore them.
I'm not necessarily saying that the English are more talented than the Germans. I'm saying that the English have a lot of talent too, but it isn't being used properly. It's not the EPL's fault. Stop trying to force it into being so. Stop ignoring the facts.

GoonerJay29 wrote:This country has a history of not producing great goalkeepers. Ever since David Seaman retried, we've gone through Paul Robinson, Scott Carson, Chris Kirkland, David James, Robert Green and Ben Foster. Robinson was decent, as was James, surprisingly, but the others never looked comfortable at international level.

Depth in this position is pretty apalling. For example, in the current squad we have Joe Hart, David Stockdale, currently plying his trade for Ipswich in the Championship and Jason Steele and Scott Carson, currently playing for Bursaspor, of all teams.

In comparison to Spain, we don't even compare. They have Casillas, Valdes, Reina as they three options, plus young keepers like De Gea and Asenjo. Our young options have been Frankie Fielding and Jason Steele, netheir of which are high calibre talents. Jack Butland is the best talent we have, but whether or not he'll get opportunities at Birmingham remains to be seen.

I think I remember I read somewhere that there is a big problem in the training of GKs in England, but I can't recall where I read it who was quoted. In that article it was said that English goalkeeper training mostly consisted of shooting balls at the hapless goalie and that was it. I have no idea whether that is actually true nowadays, but it seems there has to be some fundamental flaw.

The only thing that would contradict that is Ron-Robert Zieler IMO. Zieler signed with ManUtd when he was 16 and was basically formed by their academy. Of course he never got any first time play time in the PL, but when he went to Hannover last year, he developped into a real class GK who will earn his first cap this week in the match against the Ukraine.

So I really wonder - do the English coaches simply not see talent in that position? Or is it because they are too afraid to give a younger keeper the playing time? On the other hand, ManUtd bought a 20-year old Spaniard for a considerable sum - and there age obviously wasn't the factor.

In the BL we have a couple of 19-21 year old GKs who are the 1st team regulars of their clubs (most notably ter Stegen and Leno) and for some reason it works nicely here. Maybe the PL coaches need to jump over their shadows and gibt their own youngsters some real play time?

@German fans
Do we have bring up anything related to Germany in every thread?

Stay on-topic ffs.

"Why was Germany inserted into a thread about England and Spain?

That seems to have derailed this thread a bit."

Question is why the hell we are talking about 'ENGLISH' talents when they clearly are inferior to all other talents in the world.

FC_Hollywood wrote:Question is why the hell we are talking about 'ENGLISH' talents when they clearly are inferior to all other talents in the world.

I'll give you a hint: The topic says "How Much better is Spain's second team compared to England's first team ?"

Iceman wrote:

Idrisozet wrote:

Iceman wrote:Your point doesn't exist. The EPL is not at fault for anything. Wilshere, who is as equally talented as Goetze is (if not more, according to some), has only 5 caps as you said yourself. How is this the EPL's fault?
Players like Smalling, Jones, Sturridge etc. are some of the best talents out there. Sturridge was bossing the Premier League last season with Bolton, but he is not getting the reward for his work on the NT level. How is this the EPL's fault?
You have not shown any relation. If anything, you've shown the complete opposite.

So do you mean NT appearance don't *bleep*, would you play Micah Richard in place of Johnson, or Jones in place of Terry.?

I will definitely not play McEachran for Lampard, or Gibbs for Ashley Cole, or Smalling for Ferdinand, Sturridge none for Rooney, those player have no legitimate claim for the current English squad position.

Please I dont even want to mention

Lansbury
Rodwell
Afobe
Aneke
Walker
Albrighton
Shelvey
Kelly
Wickham

They can not challenge any player in English national team, because they are simply not good enough, If you get where I am coming from you'll understand that England is not able to produce young talent that will legitimately challenge or bench already established stars, unlike in Germany where you have Young players like Schurrle giving almighty Podolski a run for his money, and Ballack has long been drop, Mertesacker is also facing strong challenge from about 4 young talent and is only a matter of time before his dropped.

keep ignoring my point and pretend you dont like know that it's the EPL fault that English National team do not have young talent capable of benching the supposed Golden Generation, because they spend loads of money buying establish foreign players instead of investing in youth academy like Spain, Germany and Netherlands are doing

Wilshere can give any midfielder in the world a run for his money, but he only has 5 caps.
I WOULD play Richards instead of Johnson
Terry is better than most of the CBs that Germany has, I'm sad to say, so there's no surprise in why he's still playing. Also, guess who was given the chance to play for the NT? Players like Jagielka and Cahill. While both very good players, Smalling and Jones should be playing instead. But they aren't
From the players that are good enough, and the ones that have really shined for the U-21, such as McEachran, Wilshere, Sturridge, Lansbury, AoC, Albrighton, Walker and Gibbs, none of them have been given the chance. Like Rwo was saying, most of the U-21 of the 2009 German team has become part of the NT, but in England these players aren't even given the chance. When Sturridge was ripping the defenses apart in the EPL last season, where was his call-up, for example?
How long did it take for Wilshere to get a call-up?

The players aren't even getting chances. As Jay said, have you even seen the rest of the other players? Because you seem to be dismissing them regardless of everything. They are new names for you and so, by default, you ignore them.
I'm not necessarily saying that the English are more talented than the Germans. I'm saying that the English have a lot of talent too, but it isn't being used properly. It's not the EPL's fault. Stop trying to force it into being so. Stop ignoring the facts.

Respect man.

But I never said England don't have talent,(every country in the world does) my point is that they don't have talent that are good enough to replace the current Golden generation and challenge for top competition and the reason for this is because of English Club failing to invest in youth Academy from grass-root except maybe for Arsenal.

The F.A have started addressing the issue and the new rules for 25 man squad which most consist of home-grown players suggest they are taking necessary step to address the problem I was trying to point.

Also is not just about some player like Gibbs replacing Ashley Cole, but can they perform and challenge for tournament like Germany talent are doing, that is the big question..?

I agree I dont watch those player, then of course maybe is because they are not good enough to make anyone notice them, say for example you dont need to work-hard to notice who, Muller, Oezil, Kroos, Hummels etc are, their talent make everyone know who they are.

Another thing, Wilshere can not give any midfielder in the world a run for his money, that's also one of the problem English talent are facing, Fans and Media placing so much burden on on them and over hyping them.

How can Wilshere challenge the likes of, Schweinsteiger, Xavi, Xabi, Iniesta, Silva, Sneijder, Robben, Ribery, Oezil, Muller, Bosquet, etc

rwo power wrote:I think I remember I read somewhere that there is a big problem in the training of GKs in England, but I can't recall where I read it who was quoted. In that article it was said that English goalkeeper training mostly consisted of shooting balls at the hapless goalie and that was it. I have no idea whether that is actually true nowadays, but it seems there has to be some fundamental flaw.

Not being a coach myself, I would not be able to tell you. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the extent of keeper training here, though, at least at some clubs. I'm sure most of the better clubs in the country do more with their keepers.

The only thing that would contradict that is Ron-Robert Zieler IMO. Zieler signed with ManUtd when he was 16 and was basically formed by their academy. Of course he never got any first time play time in the PL, but when he went to Hannover last year, he developped into a real class GK who will earn his first cap this week in the match against the Ukraine.

I think with a lot of young keepers, you'll never know how good they are until you actually give them the opportunities to play. But since the position is so important, those opportunities won't always be there. Taking Thibaut Courtois, for example. He's an excellent young prospect playing for Atleti in La Liga, but when he returns to Chelsea how and when will he displace Petr Cech?

Every club in the Premier League has an established number one, and an average number two. The number two spot could easily be used for a young, English prospect but most clubs opt for some random foreign keeper. Take Wolves as an example: their number one is Wayne Hennessey, and they needed a number two so they got Dorus De Vreis, who was number one for Swansea and a very solid keeper. Why do Wolves need two keepers of the same ability? How can any English prospect expect to find opportunities at Wolves?

So I really wonder - do the English coaches simply not see talent in that position? Or is it because they are too afraid to give a younger keeper the playing time? On the other hand, ManUtd bought a 20-year old Spaniard for a considerable sum - and there age obviously wasn't the factor.

I believe it's because young keepers are unknown quantities until you give them the opportunity. Since young keepers are liable to make mistakes, clubs go for the experienced performers. De Gea was given the chance by Atleti and showed how good he was, which is why United brought him. Similarly, Arsenal saw how good Szczesny was whilst on loan and gave him the chance. Joe Hart had to prove himself at Birmingham before City were convinced of his quality.

In the BL we have a couple of 19-21 year old GKs who are the 1st team regulars of their clubs (most notably ter Stegen and Leno) and for some reason it works nicely here. Maybe the PL coaches need to jump over their shadows and gibt their own youngsters some real play time?

Coaches here are probably afraid to give young keepers a chance because the demmand for success and, subsequently, experienced performers is so high. I mean, just look at how badly De Gea was criticised, and how United were criticised for buying him instead Stekelenburg, for example.

I don't know if it's the same way in La Liga, or the Bundesliga; if a young keeper makes a mistake, do people understand he's young and prone to do so or is he mercilessly criticised?