How Much better is Spain's second team compared to England's first team ?

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Post by Jay29 Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:40 pm

rwo power wrote:I think I remember I read somewhere that there is a big problem in the training of GKs in England, but I can't recall where I read it who was quoted. In that article it was said that English goalkeeper training mostly consisted of shooting balls at the hapless goalie and that was it. I have no idea whether that is actually true nowadays, but it seems there has to be some fundamental flaw.

Not being a coach myself, I would not be able to tell you. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the extent of keeper training here, though, at least at some clubs. I'm sure most of the better clubs in the country do more with their keepers.

The only thing that would contradict that is Ron-Robert Zieler IMO. Zieler signed with ManUtd when he was 16 and was basically formed by their academy. Of course he never got any first time play time in the PL, but when he went to Hannover last year, he developped into a real class GK who will earn his first cap this week in the match against the Ukraine.

I think with a lot of young keepers, you'll never know how good they are until you actually give them the opportunities to play. But since the position is so important, those opportunities won't always be there. Taking Thibaut Courtois, for example. He's an excellent young prospect playing for Atleti in La Liga, but when he returns to Chelsea how and when will he displace Petr Cech?

Every club in the Premier League has an established number one, and an average number two. The number two spot could easily be used for a young, English prospect but most clubs opt for some random foreign keeper. Take Wolves as an example: their number one is Wayne Hennessey, and they needed a number two so they got Dorus De Vreis, who was number one for Swansea and a very solid keeper. Why do Wolves need two keepers of the same ability? How can any English prospect expect to find opportunities at Wolves?

So I really wonder - do the English coaches simply not see talent in that position? Or is it because they are too afraid to give a younger keeper the playing time? On the other hand, ManUtd bought a 20-year old Spaniard for a considerable sum - and there age obviously wasn't the factor.

I believe it's because young keepers are unknown quantities until you give them the opportunity. Since young keepers are liable to make mistakes, clubs go for the experienced performers. De Gea was given the chance by Atleti and showed how good he was, which is why United brought him. Similarly, Arsenal saw how good Szczesny was whilst on loan and gave him the chance. Joe Hart had to prove himself at Birmingham before City were convinced of his quality.

In the BL we have a couple of 19-21 year old GKs who are the 1st team regulars of their clubs (most notably ter Stegen and Leno) and for some reason it works nicely here. Maybe the PL coaches need to jump over their shadows and gibt their own youngsters some real play time?

Coaches here are probably afraid to give young keepers a chance because the demmand for success and, subsequently, experienced performers is so high. I mean, just look at how badly De Gea was criticised, and how United were criticised for buying him instead Stekelenburg, for example.

I don't know if it's the same way in La Liga, or the Bundesliga; if a young keeper makes a mistake, do people understand he's young and prone to do so or is he mercilessly criticised?

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Post by Arquitecto Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:42 pm

Idriozet your really embarrassing yourself here.

Stop while your at it.

:facepalm:
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Post by The Messiah Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:49 pm

Arquitecto wrote:Idriozet your really embarrassing yourself here.

Stop while your at it.

:facepalm:

Can You enlighten me with you unlimited supply of knowlegde, Mr know it all
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Post by rwo power Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:05 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:I think with a lot of young keepers, you'll never know how good they are until you actually give them the opportunities to play. But since the position is so important, those opportunities won't always be there. Taking Thibaut Courtois, for example. He's an excellent young prospect playing for Atleti in La Liga, but when he returns to Chelsea how and when will he displace Petr Cech?
Well, that is indeed a good question! But again, even though he is a good prospect, Courtois is Belgian, so he won't be eligible for the English NT. And when he returns to Chelsea, he'll take up another space that could have gone to an English keeper. BTW, how it Ross Turnbull doing at Chelea? I think I mainly read about Hilário playing when Cech had to be replaced, or is my memory wrong in that respect?

GoonerJay29 wrote:Every club in the Premier League has an established number one, and an average number two. The number two spot could easily be used for a young, English prospect but most clubs opt for some random foreign keeper. Take Wolves as an example: their number one is Wayne Hennessey, and they needed a number two so they got Dorus De Vreis, who was number one for Swansea and a very solid keeper. Why do Wolves need two keepers of the same ability? How can any English prospect expect to find opportunities at Wolves?
Yeah, I noticed that, too, that you almost have no English keepers in the PL, which is a real shame. In Germany most Nr.1 spots and the Nr.2 spots, too, are taken by German keepers, thus giving them plenty of practice time.

GoonerJay29 wrote:I believe it's because young keepers are unknown quantities until you give them the opportunity. Since young keepers are liable to make mistakes, clubs go for the experienced performers. De Gea was given the chance by Atleti and showed how good he was, which is why United brought him. Similarly, Arsenal saw how good Szczesny was whilst on loan and gave him the chance. Joe Hart had to prove himself at Birmingham before City were convinced of his quality.
Here quite some youngsters were thrown right into the deep end of the pond, some even playing at the CL even though pretty unexperienced. Look at Leno who plays at Bayer Leverkusen with 19. Unnerstall (21) at Schalke had his first matches playing right in the EL, just as Manuel Neuer was allowed to play in the CL when he was just 20. Kloppo at Dortmund called up Mitch Langerak for the first time right against Bayern München. Maybe the German coaches are simply taking more risks - and interestingly the boys usually pay them back well.

GoonerJay29 wrote:
In the BL we have a couple of 19-21 year old GKs who are the 1st team regulars of their clubs (most notably ter Stegen and Leno) and for some reason it works nicely here. Maybe the PL coaches need to jump over their shadows and gibt their own youngsters some real play time?
Coaches here are probably afraid to give young keepers a chance because the demmand for success and, subsequently, experienced performers is so high. I mean, just look at how badly De Gea was criticised, and how United were criticised for buying him instead Stekelenburg, for example.

I don't know if it's the same way in La Liga, or the Bundesliga; if a young keeper makes a mistake, do people understand he's young and prone to do so or is he mercilessly criticised?
Well, if a youngster makes a mistake, the coaches aren't to happy about it either, but they usually keep them at their post anyway to strengthen them. I think in Germany we are lucky that the press isn't as harsh as in England. Here mistakes are more easily forgiven, especially when they are still kids between the posts.
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Post by Jay29 Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:23 pm

Well, that is indeed a good question! But again, even though he is a good prospect, Courtois is Belgian, so he won't be eligible for the English NT. And when he returns to Chelsea, he'll take up another space that could have gone to an English keeper. BTW, how it Ross Turnbull doing at Chelea? I think I mainly read about Hilário playing when Cech had to be replaced, or is my memory wrong in that respect?

Turnbull was sent off in his last game for Chelsea and is generally a very average keeper all round. Hilario is usually the number two.

Yeah, I noticed that, too, that you almost have no English keepers in the PL, which is a real shame. In Germany most Nr.1 spots and the Nr.2 spots, too, are taken by German keepers, thus giving them plenty of practice time.

Perhaps it's a quantity thing. Maybe we just don't produce enough English keepers, and so our chances of actually finding one that's good will be smaller.

Well, if a youngster makes a mistake, the coaches aren't to happy about it either, but they usually keep them at their post anyway to strengthen them. I think in Germany we are lucky that the press isn't as harsh as in England. Here mistakes are more easily forgiven, especially when they are still kids between the posts.

This is the probably the key difference, then. On top of nations like Spain and Germany producing more players in general, the environment in which they develop is a whole lot more favourable than it is here in England. Just about any decent young talent that breaks through is hyped to the moon, and when they fail to meet expecations, they're heavily criticised. Which, in turn, dents their confidence and all that.

There's actually one point I've not brought up yet. Did people know that in England, coaches can only spend three hours a day with 12-16 year olds? In Spain, it's five hours. In the Netherlands, it's six hours. Is it any wonder why our talent just doesn't compare?

There's actually a plan in place to change this, but the FA are going about it the wrong way, unfortunately.

Maybe with more time for youngsters to train, we'll see more keepers coming through.

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Post by rwo power Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:30 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:Perhaps it's a quantity thing. Maybe we just don't produce enough English keepers, and so our chances of actually finding one that's good will be smaller.
Or maybe it is because Germany has a great goalkeeping tradition with greats like Toni Turek, Sepp Maier, Toni Schuhmacher, Andy Köpke, Jens Lehmann, Oliver Kahn, Nadine Angerer from the women's team, too (WWC2007 without a single goal against!) etc pp - there are probably quite some kids who want to follow in their footsteps. Could it be that in England there are more kids who want to become cool midfielders/attackers like Rooney, Messi or CRonaldo (list can be expanded however you wish XD). Maybe in Spain there are more kids willing to go into goalkeeping due to the great Spanish keepers, too, and they obviously don't lack GKs either.

GoonerJay29 wrote:
Well, if a youngster makes a mistake, the coaches aren't to happy about it either, but they usually keep them at their post anyway to strengthen them. I think in Germany we are lucky that the press isn't as harsh as in England. Here mistakes are more easily forgiven, especially when they are still kids between the posts.
This is the probably the key difference, then. On top of nations like Spain and Germany producing more players in general, the environment in which they develop is a whole lot more favourable than it is here in England. Just about any decent young talent that breaks through is hyped to the moon, and when they fail to meet expecations, they're heavily criticised. Which, in turn, dents their confidence and all that.
I have followed quite a while how the English press makes and breaks footballers. Dear me, we have out tabloids, too, but IMO they are totally harmless compared to British tabloids (except for the BILD, of course).

GoonerJay29 wrote:There's actually one point I've not brought up yet. Did people know that in England, coaches can only spend three hours a day with 12-16 year olds? In Spain, it's five hours. In the Netherlands, it's six hours. Is it any wonder why our talent just doesn't compare?

There's actually a plan in place to change this, but the FA are going about it the wrong way, unfortunately. Maybe with more time for youngsters to train, we'll see more keepers coming through.
I hope you get things right in the near future. But from what I followed, that grassroots reform sounds to be rather detrimental to the lower league clubs as they now get far less money for youngsters they raised.

BTW, I have no idea how long per day kids can be trained in Germany, I'm afraid. If someone has the number I'd be delighted.
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Post by Guest Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:41 pm

England will lose 5-0.

No Spearing vs Spain ? Midfield will get owned.

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Post by EarlyPrototype Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:59 pm

Idrisozet wrote:
EarlyPrototype wrote:
Idrisozet wrote:
EarlyPrototype wrote:Neuer is Germany's only keeper better than Hart.

Does that mean Hart=Casilas

:facepalm:

Even if Neuer is better than Casillias are you saying all other keepers are the same lmao?

No my point was Casilas, Reina, Valdez and maybe Da Gea are better than Hart which also means, Neuer, Adler, Wiese, and Maybe Ron-Robert Zieler, Marc-André ter Stegen, Roman Weidenfeller and Leno are better than Hart.

If Hart is as better than Adler that means his almost on thesame level with Casillas, which his clearly not

LOLWUT?
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Post by Jay29 Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:05 pm

I hope you get things right in the near future. But from what I followed, that grassroots reform sounds to be rather detrimental to the lower league clubs as they now get far less money for youngsters they raised.

BTW, I have no idea how long per day kids can be trained in Germany, I'm afraid. If someone has the number I'd be delighted.

The FA have done a lot of right things in its grassroots reforms, such as making younger kids play on smaller pitches and scrapping league systems for kids up until a certain age (can't believe it took us this long to actually do something like this, though), but this EPPP (Elite Player Performance Plan) is a double-edged sword.

Fees for kids will be paid in installments, instead of in bulk. So lower league clubs will lose a big part of their income, and either go out of business or scrap their own acadamies all together because they just can't afford to keep them going.

On the other hand, the highly graded academies will be able to gather the more talented kids from all over the country, since they'll be exempt from the rule that they could only live 90 minutes away and they can spend more hours coaching them, thus, theoritcally, making them into better players. That would benefit the national team.

But then again, it might not, as Premier League clubs will still look at cheaper, foreign alternatives. It's all a very delicate balance that we won't know the benefits of until a few years to come.

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Post by REWB Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:16 pm

.


Last edited by RedEyesWhiteBeard on Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by REWB Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:17 pm

Idrisozet wrote:
Iceman wrote:
Idrisozet wrote:
Iceman wrote:Your point doesn't exist. The EPL is not at fault for anything. Wilshere, who is as equally talented as Goetze is (if not more, according to some), has only 5 caps as you said yourself. How is this the EPL's fault?
Players like Smalling, Jones, Sturridge etc. are some of the best talents out there. Sturridge was bossing the Premier League last season with Bolton, but he is not getting the reward for his work on the NT level. How is this the EPL's fault?
You have not shown any relation. If anything, you've shown the complete opposite.

So do you mean NT appearance don't *bleep*, would you play Micah Richard in place of Johnson, or Jones in place of Terry.?

I will definitely not play McEachran for Lampard, or Gibbs for Ashley Cole, or Smalling for Ferdinand, Sturridge none for Rooney, those player have no legitimate claim for the current English squad position.

Please I dont even want to mention

Lansbury
Rodwell
Afobe
Aneke
Walker
Albrighton
Shelvey
Kelly
Wickham

They can not challenge any player in English national team, because they are simply not good enough, If you get where I am coming from you'll understand that England is not able to produce young talent that will legitimately challenge or bench already established stars, unlike in Germany where you have Young players like Schurrle giving almighty Podolski a run for his money, and Ballack has long been drop, Mertesacker is also facing strong challenge from about 4 young talent and is only a matter of time before his dropped.

keep ignoring my point and pretend you dont like know that it's the EPL fault that English National team do not have young talent capable of benching the supposed Golden Generation, because they spend loads of money buying establish foreign players instead of investing in youth academy like Spain, Germany and Netherlands are doing

Wilshere can give any midfielder in the world a run for his money, but he only has 5 caps.
I WOULD play Richards instead of Johnson
Terry is better than most of the CBs that Germany has, I'm sad to say, so there's no surprise in why he's still playing. Also, guess who was given the chance to play for the NT? Players like Jagielka and Cahill. While both very good players, Smalling and Jones should be playing instead. But they aren't
From the players that are good enough, and the ones that have really shined for the U-21, such as McEachran, Wilshere, Sturridge, Lansbury, AoC, Albrighton, Walker and Gibbs, none of them have been given the chance. Like Rwo was saying, most of the U-21 of the 2009 German team has become part of the NT, but in England these players aren't even given the chance. When Sturridge was ripping the defenses apart in the EPL last season, where was his call-up, for example?
How long did it take for Wilshere to get a call-up?

The players aren't even getting chances. As Jay said, have you even seen the rest of the other players? Because you seem to be dismissing them regardless of everything. They are new names for you and so, by default, you ignore them.
I'm not necessarily saying that the English are more talented than the Germans. I'm saying that the English have a lot of talent too, but it isn't being used properly. It's not the EPL's fault. Stop trying to force it into being so. Stop ignoring the facts.

Respect man.

But I never said England don't have talent,(every country in the world does) my point is that they don't have talent that are good enough to replace the current Golden generation and challenge for top competition and the reason for this is because of English Club failing to invest in youth Academy from grass-root except maybe for Arsenal.

The F.A have started addressing the issue and the new rules for 25 man squad which most consist of home-grown players suggest they are taking necessary step to address the problem I was trying to point.

Also is not just about some player like Gibbs replacing Ashley Cole, but can they perform and challenge for tournament like Germany talent are doing, that is the big question..?

I agree I dont watch those player, then of course maybe is because they are not good enough to make anyone notice them, say for example you dont need to work-hard to notice who, Muller, Oezil, Kroos, Hummels etc are, their talent make everyone know who they are.

Another thing, Wilshere can not give any midfielder in the world a run for his money, that's also one of the problem English talent are facing, Fans and Media placing so much burden on on them and over hyping them.

How can Wilshere challenge the likes of, Schweinsteiger, Xavi, Xabi, Iniesta, Silva, Sneijder, Robben, Ribery, Oezil, Muller, Bosquet, etc


why did you included wingers? and btw wilshere can stand up to them...have you not been watching the cl? have you not seen what he can do? oh and fyi i think iceman was referring to youngsters.

oh and btw what you said about hart/cas is such a joke i cant believe it.
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Post by RealGunner Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:42 pm

Spain will field their strongest team available, England will field their 3rd choice at best
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Post by Zealous Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:45 pm

England's 3rd choice team isn't that much worse than their 1st team TBH.
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Post by RealGunner Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:48 pm

They havn't found their 1st team yet tbf

Trash like Barry keep on playing because the likes of Rodwell havn't progressed as fast they should have


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Post by Gil Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:01 pm

The whole of England should be praying McEachran gets his loan move to Swansea in January. Probably would be a regular for England now if he wasn't properly f**ked by AVB in the summer.

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Post by RealGunner Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:06 pm

if we had space we would have gone for him, he is mates with half of our reserves Very Happy

And if Rodwell progress (he still has time ) then i think we will be sorted for the future as he is a different type of DM then the other english ones.


Also, George Thorne has a very bright future ahead of him, Excellent prospect along with Shelvey
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:09 pm

Gil wrote:The whole of England should be praying McEachran gets his loan move to Swansea in January. Probably would be a regular for England now if he wasn't properly f**ked by AVB in the summer.

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:dance:

*wanna see Rodwell in DM purely for the lulz Very Happy

Josh should change his name to Jack ftlulz Very Happy

That way all 3 midfielders would share my name Very Happy
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Post by dostoevsky Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:19 pm

Idrisozet wrote:[color=red]But I never said England don't have talent,(every country in the world does) my point is that they don't have talent that are good enough to replace the current Golden generation and challenge for top competition and the reason for this is because of English Club failing to invest in youth Academy from grass-root except maybe for Arsenal.[/colour]

The problem is, this "golden generation" that you have spoken of didn't even qualify for the European championships in 2008, yet you're characterising a vision of a bleak future for the English national team in terms of their production purely of talent. The debacle in 2008 is not an isolated incident in the history of the English national team.

Spanning from 1972 to 1978, England failed to qualify for two consecutive European Championships and two consecutive World Cups, during a period of time in which English teams were performing extremely well in Europe - Bayern were also awesome at the time of course. The European championships were extremely small tournament at that time however, but the failure at the World Cups highlights the problem.

The platform of a great national team can not simply be raw talent, even for the likes of Brazil. The performances of so called "golden generations" - I will note that many successful English clubs in the 70s relied heavily on Scottish talent, however there was easily enough English talent there to at the very least qualify, particularly in Liverpool near the close of the decade - have been continually underwhelming and thus it is clear that tactical administration and a lack of cohesion on all levels is to blame.

Giving a group of highly motivated youngsters the task and the time required by any team to develop would greatly improve English hopes and how people view the squad when they are confident that they will be moulded together. Frankly, they can't be a greater disappointment than what England have suffered in the past and they have nothing to lose.

Here's hoping they continue to provide never ending entertaining by continually choking of course. banana

Also if England are to have so many Jacks in midfield, they need to find someone called Sparrow. Even if they need to legally change someone's name.
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