Jose Mourinho

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Post by Babun Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:36 pm

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:
kiranr wrote:So he is exceptional at motivating his players and selecting the correct tactics for his team. I explained his rise due to kind of projects he took up. Dont you think a manager like SAF or Capello, if given the reign of Chelsea and a lot of funds cannot make them champions?
Yes, it's part of it. The combination between how long he has been a coach, and how quickly he is able to turn to success is very impressive. He picks up titles everywhere he goes, and in a very short time, regardless of the expectations and pressure he gets the job done. So far he has done wonderfully in his career.


Exceptional coach Nick. No doubt. But, only Babun addressed why he could be labelled a tactical genius.

we were not arguing the same thing, i was explaining you why he is labelled a genius coach, not a tactical genius, which babun did.
The first part doesn't need to be explained nick Very Happy Just go to wikipedia.org or somewhere similar and look at his achievement list :lol!:
cheesy wrote:Mourinho is a decent manager, but he does not have a patch on quality managers such as Gary Megson and Avram Grant.
You make mistakes like huntsman. First rule to trolling, don't let people find out you're a troll Very Happy


Last edited by babun1024 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Magricos Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:36 pm

kiranr wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Consistency kiranr. The guys you mention have moments of genius. Mou consistently shows genius.... That's the difference.

And as immentioned, mou has done it with 4 teams in 4 leagues with 4 completely different set of players... Without skipping a beat. SAF and Wenger have only been part of 1 team in 1 league.

SAF has consistently won the PL over the past 2 decades. Wenger has consistently achieved CL football inspite of a board that is not ambitious. Hiddink has consistently made a below par team punch above their weight. He even came in to Chelsea and almost took them to the CL final.

There are different forms of consistency. Mourinho only takes up projects where there a trophy is the sole goal and the board/owner is completely behind him and gives him any and all players he needs. Look at the depth he has at Madrid. I dont think any other top team has as much depth as Mourinho has at Madrid.

Mind you Sportsczy, he is an excellent manager, but i dont think he should be rated over and above some of the managers that i have mentioned.


:lol!: Arsenal board not ambitious.

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Post by kiranr Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:38 pm

Magricos wrote:


:lol!: Arsenal board not ambitious.

What is your point?
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Post by Babun Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:41 pm

Wenger is a better manager than SAF. SAF spent hundreds of millions to get Manu where they're now Very Happy
He spent the most when Chelsea overtook them in EPL since then he had no need to strengthen radically so the spending spree went down but his team became weaker in Europe Very Happy
give Wenger the same funds >>> SAF by miles Very Happy


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Post by Babun Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:44 pm

@emassy, the thread isn't needed, really Very Happy Mourinho is a master troll, leave him do his off the pitch antics so people here have stuff to mock or discuss about him, here Very Happy
I'm more interested in his accomplishments on the pitch Very Happy


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Post by kiranr Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:48 pm

babun1024 wrote:Wenger is a better manager than SAF. SAF spent hundreds of millions to get Manu where they're now Very Happy
He spent the most when Chelsea overtook them in EPL since then he had no need to strangthen radically so the spending spree went down but his team became weaker in Europe Very Happy
Game Wenger the same funds >>> SAF by miles Very Happy

Are you trolling or are you serious?
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Post by FennecFox7 Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:48 pm

LOL this cheesy guy is the best Very Happy Laughing
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Post by Babun Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:53 pm

kiranr wrote:
babun1024 wrote:Wenger is a better manager than SAF. SAF spent hundreds of millions to get Manu where they're now Very Happy
He spent the most when Chelsea overtook them in EPL since then he had no need to strangthen radically so the spending spree went down but his team became weaker in Europe Very Happy
Game Wenger the same funds >>> SAF by miles Very Happy

Are you trolling or are you serious?
I'm serious. SAF spent a LOT in last five years. Wenger has to work with a wage cap and his scouting network to come by somewhat due to their stadion debt repayments Very Happy People easily forget the invincibles Very Happy They owned SAF managed Manu for years Very Happy
I'll look for a transfer list if you want Very Happy
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Post by S Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:00 pm

Giggity5313 wrote:LOL this cheesy guy is the best Very Happy Laughing

I'd second that.. Laughing
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Post by kiranr Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:02 pm

babun1024 wrote:
kiranr wrote:
babun1024 wrote:Wenger is a better manager than SAF. SAF spent hundreds of millions to get Manu where they're now Very Happy
He spent the most when Chelsea overtook them in EPL since then he had no need to strangthen radically so the spending spree went down but his team became weaker in Europe Very Happy
Game Wenger the same funds >>> SAF by miles Very Happy

Are you trolling or are you serious?
I'm serious. SAF spent a LOT in last five years. Wenger has to work with a wage cap and his scouting network to come by somewhat due to their stadion debt repayments Very Happy People easily forget the invincibles Very Happy They owned SAF managed Manu for years Very Happy
I'll look for a transfer list if you want Very Happy

Not that is disagree/agree with you. But i do see where you are coming from.

However, SAF's United has been strong in Europe for the past 5 years or so. They have won the PL 12 times (i think) over the past 20 years. That is a great achievement on par with Mou's achievements.
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Post by Babun Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm

kiranr wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
kiranr wrote:
babun1024 wrote:Wenger is a better manager than SAF. SAF spent hundreds of millions to get Manu where they're now Very Happy
He spent the most when Chelsea overtook them in EPL since then he had no need to strangthen radically so the spending spree went down but his team became weaker in Europe Very Happy
Game Wenger the same funds >>> SAF by miles Very Happy

Are you trolling or are you serious?
I'm serious. SAF spent a LOT in last five years. Wenger has to work with a wage cap and his scouting network to come by somewhat due to their stadion debt repayments Very Happy People easily forget the invincibles Very Happy They owned SAF managed Manu for years Very Happy
I'll look for a transfer list if you want Very Happy

Not that is disagree/agree with you. But i do see where you are coming from.

However, SAF's United has been strong in Europe for the past 5 years or so. They have won the PL 12 times (i think) over the past 20 years. That is a great achievement on par with Mou's achievements.
Like I told you, he spent a LOT when Chelsea overtook then, coincidentally it happened 5 years ago Very Happy Surprise, surprise...
Wenger >>> Saf because under same conditions he was superior to him Very Happy
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Post by Swanhends Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:57 pm

kiranr wrote:Winning is not a yard stick to label a manager as genius. He is a brilliant manager, no doubt, but i dont believe there is anything seperating him from other top managers.

Thats all well and good, but your question was "what makes Mou a tactical genius" not "what separates mou from other elite managers"
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Post by kiranr Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:04 pm

bhends wrote:
kiranr wrote:Winning is not a yard stick to label a manager as genius. He is a brilliant manager, no doubt, but i dont believe there is anything seperating him from other top managers.

Thats all well and good, but your question was "what makes Mou a tactical genius" not "what separates mou from other elite managers"

tactically....

Anyway, from all the comment i gathered, the winning in multiple leagues is the reason people call him tactical genius. I dont agree, but to each his own mate!
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Post by alexjanosik Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:14 am

11 pages and still no one has explained why he is a tactical genius.
All babun could come up with was that Benzema dropped into midfield.
Seriously,I am supposed to believe that that makes him a tactical genius.
FYI Benzema didnt even drop into midfield.He played a bit deep and kept shadowing Busquets who was playing almost in defense.
Kindly come up with something better.

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Post by paperbackwriter Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:12 am

I don't believe there is such a thing as tactical geniuses. Tactics don't win you games. Players being able to perform the tactics given to them close to perfection is what wins you games. You can't take for example Dynamo Zagreb and make them win the CL no matter how great the tactics are. Winning due to tactics is when you take an inferior side and make them beat superior sides in terms of quality. No matter the tactical choices (park the bus or what not).

The difference between a good coach and a great coach is that the great coach will use his player optimally and create a system that works based on the talent at hand. Aswell as get the most possible out of the players.

What makes Mou stand out is that he have succeeded in different clubs with different types of players and always have he managed to find a system where he utilize his players optimally. He also makes players excel and reach their potential.

Carvalho, Ferreira, Maniche, Deco and co became world class with Mou at Porto.

At Chelsea Lampards best season before Mou was 15 goals and 6 assists, in his first season with Mou he got 19 goals and 16 assists, he then went on, under Mous guidance to become the 20-goals a season midfielder he would be for 5 seasons.

Drogba? Had a great season at Marseille before, but was relatively unproven. Didn't explode at Chelsea until his third season. Became the world class player he have been/are under Mou.

Same case could be made about Essien, Terry, Chech and many clutch player the last decade at Chelsea. All reached their potential with Mou.

At Inter he likewise got the most out of players like Sneijder, Milito, Cambiasso, Lucio and Samuel. No spring chickens but they all performed on a higher level under Mous guidance.

At Real Madrid we've now seen Khedira, Özil, Di Maria, Benzema and Marcelo start to excel under Mou.
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Post by Guest Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:36 am

kiranr wrote:
bhends wrote:
kiranr wrote:Winning is not a yard stick to label a manager as genius. He is a brilliant manager, no doubt, but i dont believe there is anything seperating him from other top managers.

Thats all well and good, but your question was "what makes Mou a tactical genius" not "what separates mou from other elite managers"

tactically....

Anyway, from all the comment i gathered, the winning in multiple leagues is the reason people call him tactical genius. I dont agree, but to each his own mate!

If not record-setting results or the invention of a new type of offense/defense, how else would you measure genius?

Just look at the tactical progress Madrid is making in every game against Barca... that in itself should tell you enough. For example, we basically have Busquets shadowed everywhere and effectively taking him out of the game. Xavi is forced to drop closer to the defense to help. That leaves messi and iniesta to do all the work in the midfield.... this mean less supports and bigger gaps between Barca midfielders. That's how were turning the possession tide.

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Post by kiranr Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:39 am

sportsczy wrote:

If not record-setting results or the invention of a new type of offense/defense, how else would you measure genius?

Just look at the tactical progress Madrid is making in every game against Barca... that in itself should tell you enough. For example, we basically have Busquets shadowed everywhere and effectively taking him out of the game. Xavi is forced to drop closer to the defense to help. That leaves messi and iniesta to do all the work in the midfield.... this mean less supports and bigger gaps between Barca midfielders. That's how were turning the possession tide.

Great defensive tactics Sportsczy. I give credit where it is due. Mourinho has converted Madrid into an effective and strong team. But for me, Dani Alves making a run to receive the lobbed ball of Iniesta is better than a marking Busquets out of the game by Benzema!
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Post by Guest Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:49 am

kiranr wrote:
sportsczy wrote:

If not record-setting results or the invention of a new type of offense/defense, how else would you measure genius?

Just look at the tactical progress Madrid is making in every game against Barca... that in itself should tell you enough. For example, we basically have Busquets shadowed everywhere and effectively taking him out of the game. Xavi is forced to drop closer to the defense to help. That leaves messi and iniesta to do all the work in the midfield.... this mean less supports and bigger gaps between Barca midfielders. That's how were turning the possession tide.

Great defensive tactics Sportsczy. I give credit where it is due. Mourinho has converted Madrid into an effective and strong team. But for me, Dani Alves making a run to receive the lobbed ball of Iniesta is better than a marking Busquets out of the game by Benzema!

Benzema was super effective though on both defense and offense... he was just rusty with his finishing because these were the first full speed games of the season. Besides, Mou wants Benz to play more of a false 9 to help with possession against Barca. So him marking Busquets high actually helped him get to the preferred starting position for the offense... Mou actually would prefer CR7 to switch to CF as Benz is better at the collective game and is much more effective against Alves on the left.

Not only is Madrid trying to get possession away from Barca, we are also looking to give possession to Barca closer to their defense so they really need to build up. It also allows us to press more aggressively.

Haven't seen Pep make any adjustments yet. Wonder if he will.

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Post by paperbackwriter Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:55 am

sportsczy wrote:
kiranr wrote:
sportsczy wrote:

If not record-setting results or the invention of a new type of offense/defense, how else would you measure genius?

Just look at the tactical progress Madrid is making in every game against Barca... that in itself should tell you enough. For example, we basically have Busquets shadowed everywhere and effectively taking him out of the game. Xavi is forced to drop closer to the defense to help. That leaves messi and iniesta to do all the work in the midfield.... this mean less supports and bigger gaps between Barca midfielders. That's how were turning the possession tide.

Great defensive tactics Sportsczy. I give credit where it is due. Mourinho has converted Madrid into an effective and strong team. But for me, Dani Alves making a run to receive the lobbed ball of Iniesta is better than a marking Busquets out of the game by Benzema!

Benzema was super effective though on both defense and offense... he was just rusty with his finishing because these were the first full speed games of the season. Besides, Mou wants Benz to play more of a false 9 to help with possession against Barca. So him marking Busquets high actually helped him get to the preferred starting position for the offense... Mou actually would prefer CR7 to switch to CF as Benz is better at the collective game and is much more effective against Alves on the left.

Not only is Madrid trying to get possession away from Barca, we are also looking to give possession to Barca closer to their defense so they really need to build up. It also allows us to press more aggressively.

Haven't seen Pep make any adjustments yet. Wonder if he will.

Exactly. And about 50 % of the time we force Barcelona to play the long ball, something they can do all day for all we care with Messi, Iniesta, Villa and Pedro facing Pepe, Ramos, Carvalho and Khedira in air.

We maintained pressure as long as Barcelona was playing the ball in the backline/back and forth between midfield and backline. When Barcelona finally managed to build up their attack and move into our half. Then we falled back and let them play while just closing down space. Trying to counter.

Here's a great video of the Madrid pressure:

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Post by kiranr Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:02 am

sportsczy wrote:

Benzema was super effective though on both defense and offense... he was just rusty with his finishing because these were the first full speed games of the season. Besides, Mou wants Benz to play more of a false 9 to help with possession against Barca. So him marking Busquets high actually helped him get to the preferred starting position for the offense... Mou actually would prefer CR7 to switch to CF as Benz is better at the collective game and is much more effective against Alves on the left.

Is it because of CR7, that Mou is not able to do this?

sportsczy wrote:Not only is Madrid trying to get possession away from Barca, we are also looking to give possession to Barca closer to their defense so they really need to build up. It also allows us to press more aggressively.

Haven't seen Pep make any adjustments yet. Wonder if he will.

No doubt. Madrid's pressing was effective in pinning Barcelona back.

yeah, Pep has not made any adjustment, but i am sure he will or atleast i hope he will.
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Post by Guest Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:14 am

Yeah... CR7 doesn't want to play CF.

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Post by harhar11 Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:34 am

paperbackwriter wrote:
sportsczy wrote:
kiranr wrote:
sportsczy wrote:

If not record-setting results or the invention of a new type of offense/defense, how else would you measure genius?

Just look at the tactical progress Madrid is making in every game against Barca... that in itself should tell you enough. For example, we basically have Busquets shadowed everywhere and effectively taking him out of the game. Xavi is forced to drop closer to the defense to help. That leaves messi and iniesta to do all the work in the midfield.... this mean less supports and bigger gaps between Barca midfielders. That's how were turning the possession tide.

Great defensive tactics Sportsczy. I give credit where it is due. Mourinho has converted Madrid into an effective and strong team. But for me, Dani Alves making a run to receive the lobbed ball of Iniesta is better than a marking Busquets out of the game by Benzema!

Benzema was super effective though on both defense and offense... he was just rusty with his finishing because these were the first full speed games of the season. Besides, Mou wants Benz to play more of a false 9 to help with possession against Barca. So him marking Busquets high actually helped him get to the preferred starting position for the offense... Mou actually would prefer CR7 to switch to CF as Benz is better at the collective game and is much more effective against Alves on the left.

Not only is Madrid trying to get possession away from Barca, we are also looking to give possession to Barca closer to their defense so they really need to build up. It also allows us to press more aggressively.

Haven't seen Pep make any adjustments yet. Wonder if he will.

Exactly. And about 50 % of the time we force Barcelona to play the long ball, something they can do all day for all we care with Messi, Iniesta, Villa and Pedro facing Pepe, Ramos, Carvalho and Khedira in air.

We maintained pressure as long as Barcelona was playing the ball in the backline/back and forth between midfield and backline. When Barcelona finally managed to build up their attack and move into our half. Then we falled back and let them play while just closing down space. Trying to counter.

Here's a great video of the Madrid pressure:


Didn't pellegrini also adopt a high pressure game against barca? I don't see anyone calling him a genius.

Also its pretty important to remember that the majority of the barca players hadn't had a preseason, so they were not match fit while every real marid player that started, bar dive maria, were. So I wouldn't use this game as an example...

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Post by Guest Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:41 am

harhar11 wrote:
paperbackwriter wrote:
sportsczy wrote:
kiranr wrote:
sportsczy wrote:

If not record-setting results or the invention of a new type of offense/defense, how else would you measure genius?

Just look at the tactical progress Madrid is making in every game against Barca... that in itself should tell you enough. For example, we basically have Busquets shadowed everywhere and effectively taking him out of the game. Xavi is forced to drop closer to the defense to help. That leaves messi and iniesta to do all the work in the midfield.... this mean less supports and bigger gaps between Barca midfielders. That's how were turning the possession tide.

Great defensive tactics Sportsczy. I give credit where it is due. Mourinho has converted Madrid into an effective and strong team. But for me, Dani Alves making a run to receive the lobbed ball of Iniesta is better than a marking Busquets out of the game by Benzema!

Benzema was super effective though on both defense and offense... he was just rusty with his finishing because these were the first full speed games of the season. Besides, Mou wants Benz to play more of a false 9 to help with possession against Barca. So him marking Busquets high actually helped him get to the preferred starting position for the offense... Mou actually would prefer CR7 to switch to CF as Benz is better at the collective game and is much more effective against Alves on the left.

Not only is Madrid trying to get possession away from Barca, we are also looking to give possession to Barca closer to their defense so they really need to build up. It also allows us to press more aggressively.

Haven't seen Pep make any adjustments yet. Wonder if he will.

Exactly. And about 50 % of the time we force Barcelona to play the long ball, something they can do all day for all we care with Messi, Iniesta, Villa and Pedro facing Pepe, Ramos, Carvalho and Khedira in air.

We maintained pressure as long as Barcelona was playing the ball in the backline/back and forth between midfield and backline. When Barcelona finally managed to build up their attack and move into our half. Then we falled back and let them play while just closing down space. Trying to counter.

Here's a great video of the Madrid pressure:


Didn't pellegrini also adopt a high pressure game against barca? I don't see anyone calling him a genius.

Also its pretty important to remember that the majority of the barca players hadn't had a preseason, so they were not match fit while every real marid player that started, bar dive maria, were. So I wouldn't use this game as an example...

You need to dig a bit deeper bro. There are several different types of high pressure and player responsibilities change as a result. There's also a transition from high pressure to normal defense at some point when the ball advances... that transition is key.

A lot of people try high pressure without really knowing what it takes. To execute it properly is another thing completely. Mou also added a physical component to the defense that wasn't there before.

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Post by emassy Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:25 am

I just heard barca's zubizaretta is expecting madrid to sack or probe mourinho. Well,keep dreaming!
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Post by alexjanosik Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:50 am

paperbackwriter wrote:I don't believe there is such a thing as tactical geniuses. Tactics don't win you games. Players being able to perform the tactics given to them close to perfection is what wins you games. You can't take for example Dynamo Zagreb and make them win the CL no matter how great the tactics are. Winning due to tactics is when you take an inferior side and make them beat superior sides in terms of quality. No matter the tactical choices (park the bus or what not).

The difference between a good coach and a great coach is that the great coach will use his player optimally and create a system that works based on the talent at hand. Aswell as get the most possible out of the players.

What makes Mou stand out is that he have succeeded in different clubs with different types of players and always have he managed to find a system where he utilize his players optimally. He also makes players excel and reach their potential.

Carvalho, Ferreira, Maniche, Deco and co became world class with Mou at Porto.

At Chelsea Lampards best season before Mou was 15 goals and 6 assists, in his first season with Mou he got 19 goals and 16 assists, he then went on, under Mous guidance to become the 20-goals a season midfielder he would be for 5 seasons.

Drogba? Had a great season at Marseille before, but was relatively unproven. Didn't explode at Chelsea until his third season. Became the world class player he have been/are under Mou.

Same case could be made about Essien, Terry, Chech and many clutch player the last decade at Chelsea. All reached their potential with Mou.

At Inter he likewise got the most out of players like Sneijder, Milito, Cambiasso, Lucio and Samuel. No spring chickens but they all performed on a higher level under Mous guidance.

At Real Madrid we've now seen Khedira, Özil, Di Maria, Benzema and Marcelo start to excel under Mou.

So still no argument as to why the Special Five is a tactical genius.
And if Benzema playing a flase nine makes the Special Five a tactical genius then Pep is the genius of geniuses for he was the one who started playing Messi there.
The Special Five just copied.
Also Benzema and Ozil marking Busquets he just copied it from Ferguson using Rooney to mark Busquets in the CL final.
The only reason it didnt work in the CL final was because the Barca players including Busquets were supremely fit.
So dont delude yourself into thinking that Stoke achieved more possesion because of the tactical genius of the Special Five.They only did so because the Barca players are way short of fitness than the Stoke players.
I saw Xavi miss atleast 5 simple passes(simple for him)under pressure.How many times have you seen that.
Clealry shows that our players were way short of fitness.

So still waiting to know wy the Special Five is a tactical genius.

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Jose Mourinho - Page 8 Empty Re: Jose Mourinho

Post by Swanhends Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:13 am

bhends wrote:You keep asking why he's considered a tactical genius like its some great mystery....The whole body of work is in front of you if you just look at it......I mean what do you want from us here

Porto vs Man United
Porto vs Deportivo
Back to back titles with Chelsea
Chelsea vs Barca
Inter vs Chelsea (home and away)
Inter vs Barca (home and away)

There's a couple of examples for you

This debate is dead...Clearly whatever reasons people list as support for Jose's reputation as "tactical genius" (which isn't something invented on this forum Rolling Eyes) there will always be an excuse or a bizarre attempt to rationalize why that piece of evidence doesn't count/is meaningless etc...
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