2020/21 Premier League Discussion

@Hans, is THAT Klopp season incoming?

Mr Nick09 wrote:@Hans, is THAT Klopp season incoming?

I've been holding myself back from bumping my own thread

Nishankly wrote:

Doc wrote:Best CF in the world against the ball? Alright. Didn't know we were adding specific best of categories.

No one is sitting here calling Firmino the best striker in the world or the best goal scorer.

You asked "He brings those things that can't be measured through statistics and actual output."

Now you can't understand when you have someone actually takes the time out to explain, Stop Doc.

Hans explanation (as lovely as it was) is something I have read countless times for forwards/strikers who simply cannot do what they are supposed to do: score goals. Raul had that same explanation, Torres, Benzema during the season he scored less than 10, etc. Call it cynicism I guess.

Unlike you who always gets a bit prissy whenever anyone criticizes a Pool player, I actually was serious and genuine in my remark. Firmino does something that cannot be measured through statistics or actual output because if you did, he is gonna face serious criticism because his output is lackluster.

So yes, I can't be arsed with what I see as excuse making because it kinda looks like excuse making to me. Also, I didn't ask, I said it. With no fear or favour.

Yes that brings us to the question, if you don't like him, who do you replace him with so that Salah and Mane get the same amount of goals and have the same amount of influence? A traditional number 9 with 20 goals a season is that enough for a system team like Liverpool getting spanked 7-2 right now?

Great, you are getting there.

we should strip away Liverpool from their last season's title
this is simply unacceptable. So embarrassing !

Doc wrote:

Nishankly wrote:

Doc wrote:Best CF in the world against the ball? Alright. Didn't know we were adding specific best of categories.

No one is sitting here calling Firmino the best striker in the world or the best goal scorer.

You asked "He brings those things that can't be measured through statistics and actual output."

Now you can't understand when you have someone actually takes the time out to explain, Stop Doc.

Hans explanation (as lovely as it was) is something I have read countless times for forwards/strikers who simply cannot do what they are supposed to do: score goals. Raul had that same explanation, Torres, Benzema during the season he scored less than 10, etc. Call it cynicism I guess.

Unlike you who always gets a bit prissy whenever anyone criticizes a Pool player, I actually was serious and genuine in my remark. Firmino does something that cannot be measured through statistics or actual output because if you did, he is gonna face serious criticism because his output is lackluster.

So yes, I can't be arsed with what I see as excuse making because it kinda looks like excuse making to me. Also, I didn't ask, I said it. With no fear or favour.

It's not really an excuse. I've posted many times how I think Firmino doesn't score enough for a top team, and I've pointed out how he was even less prolific in Bundesliga, but in this specific team and combination, his contributions absolutely outweigh his limitations as they have Salah and Mané scoring the goals, profiting from his work. There's no denying this has worked brilliantly in the last 3 seasons, ever since Salah came to be the main scorer.

So while he is of course 'replaceable' as in Liverpool could have another top striker who contributes more goals, his skillset is very specific which means replacing him would entail changing the way the team plays, as he is integral to this version of Liverpool.
But again, without Salah he would be a big problem.

Don't let Liverpool distract you from the fact that Mourinho smashed Mehrenze.

M99 wrote:Don't let Liverpool distract you from the fact that Mourinho smashed Mehrenze.

Its Villa and we have 11 men on the field.

United gets a pass tonight.

Nishankly wrote:

M99 wrote:Don't let Liverpool distract you from the fact that Mourinho smashed Mehrenze.

Its Villa and we have 11 men on the field.

United gets a pass tonight.

Not a chance

Klopp claps and says "wowwwww", very deservedly so !
Such a shambolic performance.

M99 wrote:Don't let Liverpool distract you from the fact that Mourinho smashed Mehrenze.

I didn't forget at all. This was a great day of football. Thank you PL.

Not sure why you feel you have to act so condescending.

Doc and I disagree on most everything over the years but I respect his ability to read the game even if I disagree with it. This aint reddit. We all know what Firmino brings here, but we're allowed to rate it differently.

Mane and Salah are 10x the players not just because they score goals at rates much, much higher than Firmino, they assist at similar rates to Firmino (IMO creatively neither are much worse than Firmino), and they are absolute killers in 1v1 situations, so much more than Firmino. All three press up front similarly. Firmino is quite good at it but also is always going to have more opportunities for interceptions and tackles at the front because he plays in the center.

There just isn't much that Firmino can do that Mane or Salah can't, except for the fact that he moves off the ball very well and has to play in the middle of the park, which limits his 1v1 opportunities (which is a good thing because Firmino's strengths aren't in those opportunities). His link up play and one touch flicks and touches are second to none, but that's really all I can think of.

CBarca wrote:Not sure why you feel you have to act so condescending.

Doc and I disagree on most everything over the years but I respect his ability to read the game even if I disagree with it. This aint reddit. We all know what Firmino brings here, but we're allowed to rate it differently.

Mane and Salah are 10x the players not just because they score goals at rates much, much higher than Firmino, they assist at similar rates to Firmino (IMO creatively neither are much worse than Firmino), and they are absolute killers in 1v1 situations, so much more than Firmino. All three press up front similarly. Firmino is quite good at it but also is always going to have more opportunities for interceptions and tackles at the front because he plays in the center.

There just isn't much that Firmino can do that Mane or Salah can't, except for the fact that he moves off the ball very well and has to play in the middle of the park, which limits his 1v1 opportunities (which is a good thing because Firmino's strengths aren't in those opportunities). His link up play and one touch flicks and touches are second to none, but that's really all I can think of.

No idea why you ignore my main point. It's that he wins balls back, high and in midfield, like no other striker.

I don't know what Doc is trying to say here that we already don't know from last 4 years. Klopp has said 100 times "he doesn't care if Firmino does not get goals". Klopp has not put this system in place for Firmino to score 20 goals a season but Firmino creates space and chances for his team mates or plays the pass which makes the team build up to the eventual goal. It is a different thing that Firmino has not been in a very good form from lots of games now, compared to his own standard. But this is on Klopp because he keeps playing the front three almost every game.

Whether that's enough for Pool fans to rate him where they often do, that's up to the individual. I just don't think that his other qualities are so great that he should be considered anywhere near as good as Mane or Salah. I also don't think he's irreplaceable or as great as people make him out to be.

one for the history books

Because this discussion has happened multiple times on GL and its always ends the same and behold again it did and again the answer to your questions is within your post and Hans's post.

Kane is the only striker that comes to mind who can fit into Liverpool arguably flawlessly but that's about it. Everyone else will need a system revamp.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

CBarca wrote:Not sure why you feel you have to act so condescending.

Doc and I disagree on most everything over the years but I respect his ability to read the game even if I disagree with it. This aint reddit. We all know what Firmino brings here, but we're allowed to rate it differently.

Mane and Salah are 10x the players not just because they score goals at rates much, much higher than Firmino, they assist at similar rates to Firmino (IMO creatively neither are much worse than Firmino), and they are absolute killers in 1v1 situations, so much more than Firmino. All three press up front similarly. Firmino is quite good at it but also is always going to have more opportunities for interceptions and tackles at the front because he plays in the center.

There just isn't much that Firmino can do that Mane or Salah can't, except for the fact that he moves off the ball very well and has to play in the middle of the park, which limits his 1v1 opportunities (which is a good thing because Firmino's strengths aren't in those opportunities). His link up play and one touch flicks and touches are second to none, but that's really all I can think of.

No idea why you ignore my main point. It's that he wins balls back, high and in midfield, like no other striker.

Pressing is a team activity. I've already mentioned in a past post that Firmino is really good at it.

Is that your retort?

Helmer wrote:I don't know what Doc is trying to say here that we already don't know from last 4 years. Klopp has said 100 times "he doesn't care if Firmino does not get goals". Klopp has not put this system in place for Firmino to score 20 goals a season but Firmino creates space and chances for his team mates or plays the pass which makes the team build up to the eventual goal. It is a different thing that Firmino has not been in a very good form from lots of games now, compared to his own standard. But this is on Klopp because he keeps playing the front three almost every game.

so is it save to say the whole system goes to shit once either Mane or Salah is out, especially Mane since he is the better player.

seems like a very one-dimensional system to have for the GREATEST TEAM IN THE WORLD

Nishankly wrote:Because this discussion has happened multiple times on GL and its always ends the same and behold again it did and again the answer to your questions is within your post and Hans's post.

Kane is the only striker that comes to mind who can fit into Liverpool arguably flawlessly but that's about it. Everyone else will need a system revamp.

wow the delusion

Doc wrote:

halamadrid2 wrote:When was the last time Firminho scored? He wouldn't last 2 games at another club without scoring

He brings those things that can't be measured through statistics and actual output.

(:

That's it. Wasn't even being cleaver though I am very cynical hence the smile. A very explanatory and very true statement. But noooooooo, Nish has to always be prissy whenever anyone says anything that isn't glowing with positivity with respect to Pool players so I, being my usual self, responded in kind.

It really isn't wise to compare Mane & Salah to Firmino as for all their goals Firmino has to accomplish a lot more in multiple grounds compared to them. In them, who have a lot of space created for them to ply their trade. Firmino's instructions given and play does not even look for goals but all the obvious in pressing, creating space on and off the ball so saying Salah, who is quite a one dimensional player of sorts is much much better than Firmino, is just false.


Many who dislike LFC have been waiting for something like this and have scavenged within this group, as notably seen but happens and for all the ones who saw the match it was obvious why it did.

CBarca wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

CBarca wrote:Not sure why you feel you have to act so condescending.

Doc and I disagree on most everything over the years but I respect his ability to read the game even if I disagree with it. This aint reddit. We all know what Firmino brings here, but we're allowed to rate it differently.

Mane and Salah are 10x the players not just because they score goals at rates much, much higher than Firmino, they assist at similar rates to Firmino (IMO creatively neither are much worse than Firmino), and they are absolute killers in 1v1 situations, so much more than Firmino. All three press up front similarly. Firmino is quite good at it but also is always going to have more opportunities for interceptions and tackles at the front because he plays in the center.

There just isn't much that Firmino can do that Mane or Salah can't, except for the fact that he moves off the ball very well and has to play in the middle of the park, which limits his 1v1 opportunities (which is a good thing because Firmino's strengths aren't in those opportunities). His link up play and one touch flicks and touches are second to none, but that's really all I can think of.

No idea why you ignore my main point. It's that he wins balls back, high and in midfield, like no other striker.

Pressing is a team activity. I've already mentioned in a past post that Firmino is really good at it.

Is that your retort?

Yes.
And you can't be seriously claiming that Salah has anywhere near the same level against the ball as Firmino. That's just absolutely not the case.
Mané, I do agree, but then noone needs convince me that Mané is the single most important Liverpool player.

Firmino fits well with world-class wingers like Mane and Salah who score a ton. He enables them to do their thing - and what team nowadays has three world-class forwards anyway?

However, if Mane or Salah leave, are injured or decline, that's when you've got to wonder if Firmino is good enough any more. Probably not.

Anyway, I hope Klopp's vision for this season wasn't to crank it up to 11 and blow everyone away with a high defense line and relentless football, because it clearly isn't going to work out. Got to take a step back in our approach.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/HQSymDRFrF9IqCIrgq/giphy.gif

Arquitecto wrote:It really isn't wise to compare Mane & Salah to Firmino as for all their goals Firmino has to accomplish a lot more in multiple grounds compared to them. In them, who have a lot of space created for them to ply their trade. Firmino's instructions given and play does not even look for goals but all the obvious in pressing, creating space on and off the ball so saying Salah, who is quite a one dimensional player of sorts is much much better than Firmino, is just false.


Many who dislike LFC have been waiting for something like this and have scavenged within this group, as notably seen but happens and for all the ones who saw the match it was obvious why it did.

not a single sentence makes sense sheeeesh