2020/21 Premier League Discussion

Arquitecto wrote:It really isn't wise to compare Mane & Salah to Firmino as for all their goals Firmino has to accomplish a lot more in multiple grounds compared to them. In them, who have a lot of space created for them to ply their trade. Firmino's instructions given and play does not even look for goals but all the obvious in pressing, creating space on and off the ball so saying Salah, who is quite a one dimensional player of sorts is much much better than Firmino, is just false.


Many who dislike LFC have been waiting for something like this and have scavenged within this group, as notably seen but happens and for all the ones who saw the match it was obvious why it did.

not a single sentence makes sense sheeeesh

El Gunner wrote:

Helmer wrote:I don't know what Doc is trying to say here that we already don't know from last 4 years. Klopp has said 100 times "he doesn't care if Firmino does not get goals". Klopp has not put this system in place for Firmino to score 20 goals a season but Firmino creates space and chances for his team mates or plays the pass which makes the team build up to the eventual goal. It is a different thing that Firmino has not been in a very good form from lots of games now, compared to his own standard. But this is on Klopp because he keeps playing the front three almost every game.

so is it save to say the whole system goes to shit once either Mane or Salah is out, especially Mane since he is the better player.

seems like a very one-dimensional system to have for the GREATEST TEAM IN THE WORLD

I have said many times that in Klopp's system players look better than they actually are. Klopp is genius with what he is achieving and how he is individually improving players through coaching. He has put everything in place at Liverpool who play behind the scene roles and contribute massively to the success on the pitch.

It is not one dimensional at all if you see how we create chances game to game. I dont know why people make such statements. We have won at Anfield 4-0 against Barca without Firmino and Salah. And there are various such games where we have won without one or more than one players missing from our usual front three.

My issue has never been that Firmino isn't good enough or that he needs to be replaced.

It's the idea that he can't be replaced or is anywhere near Mane or Salah.

We can agree to disagree. I can't really be very bothered.

And subsequently I cannot agree on that either CB but I do see your point in some sorts.

Mane v Salah is the better comparison (Mane is better) but Firmino for all his lack of tangible profit on field he generates too many factors that is the whole crux of the front line that is vital to this day.

He can be replaced of course but it is hard to find someone who has his interesting blend of attributes along with the key point that he has so much chemistry with the team and embodies Klopp's ideals for him, very well.

halamadrid2 wrote:Chads kind of striker  

Yes and garbage ass higuain is yours, MLS choker next

Oh how quickly the last 2 seasons of benzema scoring left and right and winning la liga is forgotten but still hurts like mofo, now you and Doc gotta gang up on firmino? aka indirect Salty at benzema as usualHow butthurt can you get?

CBarca wrote:My issue has never been that Firmino isn't good enough or that he needs to be replaced.

It's the idea that he can't be replaced or is anywhere near Mane or Salah.

We can agree to disagree. I can't really be very bothered.

In fact I was the one who was saying "we need Suarez like player who can play the Firmino role now and then." I know Suarez is not the same but he would still make our system function because we do not need his acceleration or pace so much as we need his trickery and a little guile to help Salah-Mane when Firmino is not performing to his usual standards.

Suarez wouldn't work at all Helmer for us. Is quite literally washed up and may be prolific in his own way and come up in big games as he still tends to but he has lot a lot of what made him great and glad we did not consider him.


@Chad

Arquitecto wrote:And subsequently I cannot agree on that either CB but I do see your point in some sorts.

Mane v Salah is the better comparison (Mane is better) but Firmino for all his lack of tangible profit on field he generates too many factors that is the whole crux of the front line that is vital to this day.

He can be replaced of course but it is hard to find someone who has his interesting blend of attributes along with the key point that he has so much chemistry with the team and embodies Klopp's ideals for him, very well.

Nah, I disagree with this still. I think you could replace Firmino with any number of forwards and get as good or better results. I won't even name top strikers like Kane, Aguero, Suarez, Lewa etc...obviously those players are just better because they are among the best in the world.

In fact, I'll keep it EPL only: I think Martial or Rashford could both do a similar or better job. Pulisic, Bruno Fernandes, Heung-Min Son, Grealish, Lacazette, James Maddison. All off the top of my head. Some of those players would have to change their style around a bit, and I think they would really have to buy in to press anything like Firmino does. But I think every player can offer a skillset that would offset whatever is lost in pressing.

But that's my opinion.

Arquitecto wrote:Suarez wouldn't work at all Helmer for us. Is quite literally washed up and may be prolific in his own way and come up in big games as he still tends to but he has lot a lot of what made him great and glad we did not consider him.


@Chad

yeah he is gone anyways now. But as I said, we need someone in his ilk.
Klopp is already trying to tweak Liverpool's system from last season itself. I hope he also solves this issue of the front three because there are games where we win the games with sheer mentality and force, with this relentless energy. But it can not go on and specially as already said, this season is going to unpredictable in terms of how any team performs because of this corona situation and its effect on pre season.

GENIUS Klopp was dismantled by Villa.
GENIUS Rodgers was dismantled by West Ham.
PIECE OF SHIT Ole was dismantled by Tottenham.

We can only conclude that Klopp and Rodgers were unlucky. Really odd day for football, though. Ole out.

CBarca wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:And subsequently I cannot agree on that either CB but I do see your point in some sorts.

Mane v Salah is the better comparison (Mane is better) but Firmino for all his lack of tangible profit on field he generates too many factors that is the whole crux of the front line that is vital to this day.

He can be replaced of course but it is hard to find someone who has his interesting blend of attributes along with the key point that he has so much chemistry with the team and embodies Klopp's ideals for him, very well.

Nah, I disagree with this still. I think you could replace Firmino with any number of forwards and get as good or better results. I won't even name top strikers like Kane, Aguero, Suarez, Lewa etc...obviously those players are just better because they are among the best in the world.

In fact, I'll keep it EPL only: I think Martial or Rashford could both do a similar or better job. Pulisic, Bruno Fernandes, Heung-Min Son, Grealish, Lacazette, James Maddison. All off the top of my head. Some of those players would have to change their style around a bit, and I think they would really have to buy in to press anything like Firmino does. But I think every player can offer a skillset that would offset whatever is lost in pressing.

But that's my opinion.

you are missing the most important factor here "self-sacrificing nature for the good of the team." Salah is already selfish which is not so bad. Mane is also selfish but better than Salah in that regard. So you really need to have someone who does not mind that you do not get so many chances as most of them go to Salah or Mane because they occupy those positions almost in every attack of Liverpool.

Thimmy wrote:GENIUS Klopp was dismantled by Villa.
GENIUS Rodgers was dismantled by West Ham.
PIECE OF SHIT Ole was dismantled by Tottenham.

We can only conclude that Klopp and Rodgers were unlucky. Really odd day for football, though. Ole out.

At some point you will need to get over it.

Does this score indicate that Hans was right in the other thread he created?

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Thimmy wrote:GENIUS Klopp was dismantled by Villa.
GENIUS Rodgers was dismantled by West Ham.
PIECE OF SHIT Ole was dismantled by Tottenham.

We can only conclude that Klopp and Rodgers were unlucky. Really odd day for football, though. Ole out.

At some point you will need to get over it.

CBarca wrote: I think Martial or Rashford could both do a similar or better job.

I know you're serious but you might as well be trolling tbh.

I don't think I even disagree with you on the majority of this issue but this above is just absolutely ridiculous.

No, Rashford or Martial absolutely could not do anything like what Firmino does for Liverpool.

Outright bizarre claim tbh

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Thimmy wrote:GENIUS Klopp was dismantled by Villa.
GENIUS Rodgers was dismantled by West Ham.
PIECE OF SHIT Ole was dismantled by Tottenham.

We can only conclude that Klopp and Rodgers were unlucky. Really odd day for football, though. Ole out.

At some point you will need to get over it.

Get over what? I haven't even read through this thread, and yet I imagine I summed it up quite well The only match I've watched today was Bayern's thrashing of Hertha. Can't muster up the interest to watch PL or La Liga these days.

Helmer wrote:

CBarca wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:And subsequently I cannot agree on that either CB but I do see your point in some sorts.

Mane v Salah is the better comparison (Mane is better) but Firmino for all his lack of tangible profit on field he generates too many factors that is the whole crux of the front line that is vital to this day.

He can be replaced of course but it is hard to find someone who has his interesting blend of attributes along with the key point that he has so much chemistry with the team and embodies Klopp's ideals for him, very well.

Nah, I disagree with this still. I think you could replace Firmino with any number of forwards and get as good or better results. I won't even name top strikers like Kane, Aguero, Suarez, Lewa etc...obviously those players are just better because they are among the best in the world.

In fact, I'll keep it EPL only: I think Martial or Rashford could both do a similar or better job. Pulisic, Bruno Fernandes, Heung-Min Son, Grealish, Lacazette, James Maddison. All off the top of my head. Some of those players would have to change their style around a bit, and I think they would really have to buy in to press anything like Firmino does. But I think every player can offer a skillset that would offset whatever is lost in pressing.

But that's my opinion.

you are missing the most important factor here "self-sacrificing nature for the good of the team." Salah is already selfish which is not so bad. Mane is also selfish but better than Salah in that regard. So you really need to have someone who does not mind that you do not get so many chances as most of them go to Salah or Mane because they occupy those positions almost in every attack of Liverpool.

This is why I disagree again with CB as I simply cannot see those players replicate what Firmino does for us.

Does it make him better? No. It simply makes him the best suited for us compared to others but easier said when Ive not yet to see any of them try it in our club, but the same could be said the other way around.

Firmino has been doing it for a long time with this front three as a better player may arrive but to see him blend so seamlessly as Firmino does with Mane-Salah and sacrifice all he does I just cannot see happening.

futbol_bill wrote:Does this score indicate that Hans was right in the other thread he created?

I doubt it. I didn't watch Liverpool vs Villa, but I doubt they're in any actual trouble when it comes to their title aspirations. Just GL being GL.

And its time to put out that van Dijk has been fucking trash this season.

Already slowly he let the wins get to his head and now he has the idea he is Baresi with the ball whereas quite simply he isn't as good with the ball as he thinks.

Best CB in the world and there is no arguing that but I hope Klopp bitchslaps him back onto earth and stop being arrogant as he is.

Arquitecto wrote:And its time to put out that van Dijk has been fucking trash this season.

Already slowly he let the wins get to his head and now he has the idea he is Baresi with the ball whereas quite simply he isn't as good with the ball as he thinks.

Best CB in the world and there is no arguing that but I hope Klopp bitchslaps him back onto earth and stop being arrogant as he is.

Arquitecto wrote:And its time to put out that van Dijk has been fucking trash this season.

Already slowly he let the wins get to his head and now he has the idea he is Baresi with the ball whereas quite simply he isn't as good with the ball as he thinks.

Best CB in the world and there is no arguing that but I hope Klopp bitchslaps him back onto earth and stop being arrogant as he is.

this is so disturbing to a point that I want to pull my hairs out. He does it sometimes that he gets too overconfident with his abilities or arrogant or too relaxed and not focused enough.
But anyways playing high line with Adrian was a suicide.

Klopp needs to give him a hand, though. His tactics have been suicidal so far.

After City shipped five at home to Leicester and now Pool conceding seven, I'm wondering if the short pre-season has messed up these teams physically. Since they defend in a way that leaves so much space to manage, if they're off on their timing and covering by just a bit they're in trouble. Defenders having to defend all that space will make more errors.

Might explain why there have been so many goals in the PL. Lots of teams trying to do high blocks and high lines but physically unable to sustain it.

Thimmy wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Thimmy wrote:GENIUS Klopp was dismantled by Villa.
GENIUS Rodgers was dismantled by West Ham.
PIECE OF SHIT Ole was dismantled by Tottenham.

We can only conclude that Klopp and Rodgers were unlucky. Really odd day for football, though. Ole out.

At some point you will need to get over it.

Get over what? I haven't even read through this thread, and yet I imagine I summed it up quite well The only match I've watched today was Bayern's thrashing of Hertha. Can't muster up the interest to watch PL or La Liga these days.

Over your Ole persecution complex.


And I wouldn't call it a "thrashing", really

Why not? I don't call you and Helmer out on your father complex with Klopp If I had a penny for every time Helmer regurgitates Klopp's supposed brilliance, I would've bought a striker for Real Madrid.

As for the Hertha match, I'd say it was a thrashing up until they started fighting back

As I said, at some point you will need to get over it.

Klopp is a brilliant coach compared to Ole, it's not controversial really and not a reason for rolling your eyes. I'm sure you will be able to live with this reality somehow.

If you're someone that thinks people vastly overstate Firmino's influence, then it's a lukewarm take.

The only reason I'm still in this conversation is really because this is a conversation that is more than about Firmino, it's my relative surprise that people are willing to rate a player who's best attributes could be replaced by Pedro as highly as they do.

And for the record, just like Firmino, Pedro was great at Barcelona. He pressed really well, he was good enough at link up play to get goals and assists and not be a liability. His movement off the ball was wonderful and the reason he scored as much as he did. The guy was a starter for an all time great team ffs, and scored in a CL Final! There is no disrespect for Pedro here.

But don't talk to me like Pedro was not a completely replaceable player in that team, or that any number of wingers could have come in and done the same thing as Pedro while also offering a lot more.

Does that mean Pedro had to be replaced? No. Does Firmino need replacing? No, the team has proven that they are one of the best in Europe with him starting every game. However, that doesn't destroy my argument about Pedro, and his footballing ability. I see Firmino the same way.

Jay29 wrote:Klopp needs to give him a hand, though. His tactics have been suicidal so far.

After City shipped five at home to Leicester and now Pool conceding seven, I'm wondering if the short pre-season has messed up these teams physically. Since they defend in a way that leaves so much space to manage, if they're off on their timing and covering by just a bit they're in trouble. Defenders having to defend all that space will make more errors.

Might explain why there have been so many goals in the PL. Lots of teams trying to do high blocks and high lines but physically unable to sustain it.

that sums it up and well said. I am curious about the number of sprints Liverpool are able to do per game in the beginning of this new season. Usually Liverpool are the highest among EPL teams. I am sure the expert at Liverpool will be analysing this data in this international break.