Re: USA Gun Violence & Police Brutality Thread

by Myesyats Tue 2 Jun - 12:19:32

Freeza wrote:When the hell did I do that

You're corny as hell quoting Star Wars prequels to me

I've never even seen a Star Wars movie lol

by LeVersacci Tue 2 Jun - 12:20:20

That BC quote is towards me and not Freeza.

by Freeza Tue 2 Jun - 12:23:58

Myesyats wrote:Do you even read twice what you write?

Do you?

When did I wish death on a race. It doesn't even make sense.

I wrote that looters looting from BIG companies (like Target) were taking back what's theirs, since their work has often been exploited.

And then I had a problem with someone calling African Americans immigrants.

Meanwhile you write something like this and I'm the one behaving badly. My god.

I understand that black people have been mistreated throughout history but stealing ... is never justifiable.

by El Gunner Tue 2 Jun - 12:45:47

Lmaoooo all this crying, i can't believe it.

What is FF actually trying to say? That we're wrong and he and sports is right? And are we saying that you're wrong and we're right?
Dude we're just arguing and debating. In our eyes you guys say some pretty fucked things and apparently in your eyes we do too. So why chicken out and cry and threaten to leave the forum and say we are subjects of groupthink. Did you ever think you might be subjected to groupthink as well????

No one directly called anyone a racist. I just attributed a thought to you and sports descriptions of black people and apparently how very easy social upward mobility in US is as demeaning and that you might as well call them Thugs just like Trump did. If it's so easy for black people to make it why are their still social problems in America? Protests happen every now and then. And it's a sign of things aren't right with America's policies and treatment of black people - and that's all we've said. Instead it seems like you guys are trying to shut these aggrieved individuals up by saying shut the fuck up and just go work your ass off?????? That's some pretty moral high ground that.

by M99 Tue 2 Jun - 12:45:55

Myesyats wrote:Do you even read twice what you write? You literally wrote that white apologists are what keeps racism alive.

Which essentially means you can't even use "white" in a sentence or else your fueling racism and are part of the problem.

I don't need to prove I'm not racist. I know that I'm not which means I don't have to prove it. No need to say murder white people and burn their businesses. These are not liberal views. I am a centrist myself and moderate liberals like BC make much more sense than you ever did.

Apologists (who happen to be WHITE yes, there's your trigger word) do keep racism alive lol, why is that so upsetting to you unless you are an apologist yourself? I'm not saying you are but why are you getting so upset by that statement?

I agree with everything that BC said. Me saying a number of white people being fragile, getting defensive and deflecting makes racism easier is senseless and somehow goes against his views how?

Do I have to say out loud I don't condone murder of a particular race and burning of small businesses? I thought that would go without saying lol. Okay, I don't condone that. Was it the post of the BD restaurant owner that made you think that these are my views? I was proud and happy to see his attitude and how strong he is.

People have been pushed to the extreme and this is the response. The system that is being protested against does not get to decide what is the right way to protest.

by El Gunner Tue 2 Jun - 12:49:21

Myesyats wrote:

????
Taking a reserved approach is being complicit to the status quo, speak your mind dude.

by danyjr Tue 2 Jun - 12:53:33

Can someone please educate me on this whole thing? I don't read the news but from what I understand a white police man murdered a black criminal and then what? Jail the policeman, sack his superiors, see why this case was handled in such an awful way.

Why is this such a big deal?

by danyjr Tue 2 Jun - 13:26:23

S wrote:Art is not racist, he is just being ignorant imo. Taking incidents caused by those few bad apples and portraying it as the norm is what ignorants like to believe.

Let's just say that the positives of being in a multicultural/heterogeneous society far outweigh the negatives.

Besides no brown, black or Asian guy is going to immigrate to countries like Finland or Poland for a better life so you can be happy about your homogenity I guess.

I think it really depends on your migration policy whether your heterogeneous society works out or not. If you let in any low life loser who has no intention to integrate but to abuse your system, you're in trouble long term. Why would a country do that is either wanting cheap labour as a quick fix instead of investing in their youth or being under pressure from the left to open your doors to those fake "asylum seekers".

Immigration has to be calculated, based on your proficiency as well as adaptability and ability to integrate. These types of migrant absolutely bring their best skills to your country while respecting the existing culture. I'm all for that. Having ghettos in main cities with people not even speaking the country's official language is bad. I've seen it in most metropolitan cities in Europe, but we're yet to see how bad it will get.

by Art Morte Tue 2 Jun - 13:28:41

I wonder what's the effect going to be on the US police in general. They're getting a lot of hate and being made out to be the bad guys. Officers facing violence, shootings last night. The whole thing is on course to only worsen the relationship between the police and the public.

by danyjr Tue 2 Jun - 13:32:21

Art Morte wrote:I wonder what's the effect going to be on the US police in general. They're getting a lot of hate and being made out to be the bad guys. Officers facing violence, shootings last night. The whole thing is on course to only worsen the relationship between the police and the public.

Based on what I'm reading, this whole debate should be about reducing police cruelty and to cease protecting them when they do wrong. It is not a race issue at all.

by Harmonica Tue 2 Jun - 13:34:35

danyjr wrote:
Art Morte wrote:I wonder what's the effect going to be on the US police in general. They're getting a lot of hate and being made out to be the bad guys. Officers facing violence, shootings last night. The whole thing is on course to only worsen the relationship between the police and the public.
Based on what I'm reading, this whole debate should be about reducing police cruelty and to cease protecting them when they do wrong. It is not a race issue at all.

Correct. Police force needs to be controlled more, qualified immunity needs to be abolished and they have to be on the same level, and abide the same laws than everyone else. Also justice system needs more transparency to weed out the corruption, and protection of police.

by Freeza Tue 2 Jun - 13:43:13

Police forces in the South of the US. has roots in the slave patrols who were founded to protect the slavery system. So suggest there isn't race involved just isn't correct. It's impossible to separate race from police brutality seen from a macro perspective given the roots.

The 13th amendment is part of the reason the slave patrols "evolved" into the police we see now. Instead of protecting the interest of slave owners the policing system is barbaric in the sense that it wants to imprison the citizens so they can be used as slaves.

This amendment is absolute inhuman, and has been abused for far too long:

US Constitution 13th amendment wrote:Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

by Myesyats Tue 2 Jun - 13:44:14

Freeza wrote:
Myesyats wrote:Do you even read twice what you write?

Do you?

When did I wish death on a race. It doesn't even make sense.

I wrote that looters looting from BIG companies (like Target) were taking back what's theirs, since their work has often been exploited.

And then I had a problem with someone calling African Americans immigrants.

Meanwhile you write something like this and I'm the one behaving badly. My god.
I understand that black people have been mistreated throughout history but stealing ... is never justifiable.

That was directed at M69, not you. I mostly agree with what you wrote, actually

M99 wrote:
Myesyats wrote:Do you even read twice what you write? You literally wrote that white apologists are what keeps racism alive.

Which essentially means you can't even use "white" in a sentence or else your fueling racism and are part of the problem.

I don't need to prove I'm not racist. I know that I'm not which means I don't have to prove it. No need to say murder white people and burn their businesses. These are not liberal views. I am a centrist myself and moderate liberals like BC make much more sense than you ever did.

Apologists (who happen to be WHITE yes, there's your trigger word) do keep racism alive lol, why is that so upsetting to you unless you are an apologist yourself? I'm not saying you are but why are you getting so upset by that statement?

I agree with everything that BC said. Me saying a number of white people being fragile, getting defensive and deflecting makes racism easier is senseless and somehow goes against his views how?

Do I have to say out loud I don't condone murder of a particular race and burning of small businesses? I thought that would go without saying lol. Okay, I don't condone that. Was it the post of the BD restaurant owner that made you think that these are my views? I was proud and happy to see his attitude and how strong he is.

People have been pushed to the extreme and this is the response. The system that is being protested against does not get to decide what is the right way to protest.

The white apologists stuff was clearly directed at me, Sports and maybe Art/Arq since you wrote "reading some posts in this thread". These posts you had a problem with but with the actually offensive ones you didnt because they were directed at whites. That's a little hypocritical isnt it.

So what do you exactly mean by "Us vs them" in post #131? I wonder who are "them" and "us" specifically. Because from what I gather I'm the racist and you're the holier than thou anti-racist and I would beg to differ.

by Myesyats Tue 2 Jun - 13:48:00

danyjr wrote:
S wrote:Art is not racist, he is just being ignorant imo. Taking incidents caused by those few bad apples and portraying it as the norm is what ignorants like to believe.

Let's just say that the positives of being in a multicultural/heterogeneous society far outweigh the negatives.

Besides no brown, black or Asian guy is going to immigrate to countries like Finland or Poland for a better life so you can be happy about your homogenity I guess.
I think it really depends on your migration policy whether your heterogeneous society works out or not. If you let in any low life loser who has no intention to integrate but to abuse your system, you're in trouble long term. Why would a country do that is either wanting cheap labour as a quick fix instead of investing in their youth or being under pressure from the left to open your doors to those fake "asylum seekers".

Immigration has to be calculated, based on your proficiency as well as adaptability and ability to integrate. These types of migrant absolutely bring their best skills to your country while respecting the existing culture. I'm all for that. Having ghettos in main cities with people not even speaking the country's official language is bad. I've seen it in most metropolitan cities in Europe, but we're yet to see how bad it will get.

Totally agreed.

by Nishankly Tue 2 Jun - 13:50:36

danyjr wrote:

Immigration has to be calculated, based on your proficiency as well as adaptability and ability to integrate. These types of migrant absolutely bring their best skills to your country while respecting the existing culture. I'm all for that. Having ghettos in main cities with people not even speaking the country's official language is bad. I've seen it in most metropolitan cities in Europe, but we're yet to see how bad it will get.

This.

by Harmonica Tue 2 Jun - 13:52:55

This officer made a public statement about the general police wrong doings in these audit videos that are becoming more and more common in YT. The result was that he was fired, although it's still pending case and will probably result a lawsuit. This kind of attitude in the management level breeds fear for the "good" police, because they are afraid to address the "bad" police behaviour, and feel the need to protect their "blue line" no matter if it's lawful or unlawful. Protect and serve, police job is to protect the people, but in reality the most important thing for them is to protect themselves.

by Freeza Tue 2 Jun - 13:57:51

Nishankly wrote:
danyjr wrote:

Immigration has to be calculated, based on your proficiency as well as adaptability and ability to integrate. These types of migrant absolutely bring their best skills to your country while respecting the existing culture. I'm all for that. Having ghettos in main cities with people not even speaking the country's official language is bad. I've seen it in most metropolitan cities in Europe, but we're yet to see how bad it will get.

This.

I don't disagree with this. But we also have to realize that those "ghettos" often consist of people who are here because of the wars we've raged on their hometurf. This is a big reason they have a hard time adapting. It's hard to have a mindset of integrating into a society that you partly blame for having to leave your home. It's a bad fit all around.

Integration in general should be way better at forcing these people to engage in supervised activities like sports, culture etc. to engage with the general population.

And wartime in general result in way too many refugees for any effective integration can take place.

A huge reason why I'm so anti-war is because of this problem. Especially because the country supposedly "liberating" these people don't actually clear up their mess.

by rincon Tue 2 Jun - 14:02:54

None of this even matters. Black people in the US aren't immigrants. They have lived there for generations and their ancestors were slaves.

It's 100% a problem of systemic racism and slavery, not a problem of refusal of black people to integrate.

by M99 Tue 2 Jun - 14:03:26

I specified what is us vs them. Its racists vs anti-racists which is happening in the United States and not whites vs blacks. There is no middle ground here, no "fine people on both sides" that the POTUS was preaching when white supremacists marched in Virginia. White people as a race are not the victims here or the group that is being protested against. Racism is what is being protested.

And yes there have been apologists in this forum for ages, Understand that apologists that always deflect and defend trivializes issues of racism and bigotry that this world goes through.

I'll give you another example. When there used to be IS and Al Qaeda attacks I know a lot of people I know personally that during those moments would say shit like "ISIS exists because of the United States" "Where is all the sympathy when Syria is bombed everyday" "Its all Israel's fault" and shit like that. Deflection like that pissed me off too and I truly believe makes Islamic fundamentalism easier to exist.

Same shit as when Israel bombs civilians and then you get "BUT WHAT ABOUT HAMAS"

Apologists and deflection has been ever present in this forum for quite some time and I called it out and said things like this makes racism easier to exist. And yes, it was directed at posters you including. I'm not calling anyone an apologist directly because I don't personally know what anyone here is like in real life, but I am calling out apologist behavior.

If you are personally offended by this and these views make me a deluded holier than thou prick then that says a lot.

@danyjr it is a race issue because there is a particular race that is most often on the receiving end of police brutality and there have been number of times in the past when the police did not receive the proper punishment for it...

Also the recent killings of Ahmaud and Breonna adds fuel to the fire.

by Freeza Tue 2 Jun - 14:06:25

rincon wrote:None of this even matters. Black people in the US aren't immigrants. They have lived there for generations and their ancestors were slaves.

It's 100% a problem of systemic racism and slavery, not a problem of refusal of black people to integrate.

Just to add onto this most people from the middle east aren't immigrants either.

by Hapless_Hans Tue 2 Jun - 14:09:43

rincon wrote:None of this even matters. Black people in the US aren't immigrants. They have lived there for generations and their ancestors were slaves.

It's 100% a problem of systemic racism and slavery, not a problem of refusal of black people to integrate.

exactly

problems and chances of multiculturalism and immigration is a whole other, if in parts connected, topic

by M99 Tue 2 Jun - 14:12:00

Also I don't need to quote and reply every single post I disagree with. Just because I don't does not mean I automatically agree with all of them

I called out Betty's ridiculous Animal Crossing heist plan. Don't reply to some of his other posts that I disagree with too.

I disagree with Versacci's stance, consider it extreme. Do I have to quote and reply that to make it clear?

I agree completely with rincon, should I have to quote and reply to make that clear too?

Its ridiculous I am being called hypocritical for shit like this Laughing

Get rid of this victim complex. Like I'm some anti-white savant lol

by Myesyats Tue 2 Jun - 14:37:08

El Gunner wrote:Taking a reserved approach is being complicit to the status quo, speak your mind dude.

I know that riots are needed for things to change. People need to speak up. But don't glorify violence because that's what people like Trump do. And especially against specific groups of people. It's never ok and I thought that you guys were especially against it but some appear to be quite two-faced. Some hide behind clever catchphrases and labels, too, and blissfully enjoy their seat on the moral high ground.

by BarrileteCosmico Tue 2 Jun - 15:13:47

Pedram wrote:Sports be like

I get that it's a meme, but just wanted to clarify that a lot of businesses won't see a dime from insurance, and if they do it may be over a year down the line and with a huge deductible, time over which they won't be making money and will likely go under. If anyone loots a small business thinking "they're covered by insurance anyways" that's definitely the wrong approach.

by BarrileteCosmico Tue 2 Jun - 15:33:56

Myesyats wrote:I don't need to prove I'm not racist. I know that I'm not which means I don't have to prove it. No need to say murder white people and burn their businesses. These are not liberal views. I am a centrist myself and moderate liberals like BC make much more sense than you ever did.

Just for the record, I agree with everything M99 said below here. I don't see us as being on different sides.

Spoiler:

The attitudes I have a problem with are those that have a "burn everything" one, and I've tried to make my views clear on that.

In terms of moderation, I've been ready to lock this thread for a while, and might come to it later if it needs it, but for now I'm keeping an eye on it.

by BarrileteCosmico Tue 2 Jun - 15:57:49

danyjr wrote:Can someone please educate me on this whole thing? I don't read the news but from what I understand a white police man murdered a black criminal and then what? Jail the policeman, sack his superiors, see why this case was handled in such an awful way.

Why is this such a big deal?

Basically there were 3 incidents that happened very close to each other and were really egregious:

1. Ahmoud Arbery, a black man, was shot for simply jogging through a white neighborhood when a white ex-cop and his son decided he looked out of place, confronted him, and shot him. They were free for 2 months until a video was leaked to the media and now they have been arrested.

2. Breonna Taylor, a black woman, was shot inside her own bed after the police barged in, her confused husband started shooting back thinking they were being attacked, and the police shot in return. The husband now faces charges and she's dead. The man the police were actually looking for was already in jail. To my knowledge the police officers haven't faced any consequence for this.

3. George Floyd, a black man, was killed by a police officer who kneed on his neck for minutes, even as onlookers filmed it and told him he was murdering him. The police officer has been arrested.

There were also a few other incidents like a white woman getting into an argument with a black man in NYC's central park and then calling the police to tell them that she "feels threatened", making for a callous way to use systematic racism against black people, which hit a nerve with people.

This all happened more or less within the span of 10 days or so, and in most cases there was no crime other than "being black in America". For further context, the US has a long history of protecting its police officers from excessive force even if they're in the wrong, using legal technicalities to help police curb consequences. For this reason we have now reached a "tipping point" where people have had enough.

So the issue won't go away with the arrest of the offending police officer because people see this (rightfully so) as a systematic issue rather than one crazy cop doing something unforgivable. Protests have started all over the US and abroad as a result, some peaceful, some not.

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