2020 US presidential election

Babun wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Perhaps we can do it over zoom and mute him when it's not his turn to speak? Honestly wouldn't be surprised if Biden refuses to participate in any further debates.

I didn't have time to watch the debate. Could you me a very short, unbiased summary?

It was Trump v Chris Wallace. Terrible moderator who was literally debating Trump himself and that wont be mentioned here for reasons we know.

Biden mostly took his usual boring route of just capitalising on what the media and masses hate about Trump and more in reaction to that rather than presenting any ideas of his own or anything original. Biden really is the definition in stereotype of a politician.


Trump on the other hand failed to capitalise on a clearly cognitively declining Biden and chose to speak as if he was in his rallies and could have played it out much smarter but also seems to have his own cognitive decline, compared to a more tact and sharp debate with Clinton in '16.


So for Trump it was a huge missed opportunity from his side, and Biden exactly what you expect from him. On Trump's side there really is little keeping him afloat since he has failed to bring anything new to the board and more so could have used key questions on the key issues in USA to his favour but chose to deflect it for odd purposes that I will not know of.


If Trump did not consistently interrupt without reason he would have won the debate in my eyes but his zealous spiel of talking just did not suit the atmosphere of basically a quiet room of two opponents and one "moderator".


This election is a total mess and nowhere near as interesting as it was last time so no point tuning into it further.

Art Morte wrote:Didn't watch it, but sounds like the debate was what you could expect from any debate involving Trump.

Can't help but feel that Americans are having to choose between two very uninspiring candidates. Sure, Trump's MAGA vision was stupid four years ago, but at least it was some kind of "vision" about what's to come. He's got nothing this time, just tiredly recycling the same old shit with even less clear idea what it means in practice. And Biden's vision is "Trump bad". Very unexciting.

This take is some both sides-ism and I'm not a fan. Biden has lot of legitimate policies and he attempted to discuss some of them, but Trump was determined not to let that happen. Trump made it about him, like always.

And to some extent, Biden took the bait, but when you have someone who refused to condemn white supremacists on stage, refused to accept the results of the election, and continually repeated baseless claims about a fraudulent election, it's hard for the election NOT to be about the authoritarian existential threat to the country.

People really falling for Trump, bait and switch. I saw a tweet and it's correct: if you're discussing how shit of a debate is but not pointing out who made it that way: you're part of the problem.

For the record, early polls indicate Biden was the winner. Contrary to the popular immediate reaction that there were "no winners".

American political media's need to appeal to "both sides" is disgusting. The immediate reaction needs to be about how much of a fucking 4 year old Trump is and how he proved himself to be unfit for office by not being able to commit to a debate, while simultaneously unraveling onstage and spouting conspiracy theories and undermining democratic norms, and arguing with the moderator as much as Biden.

And what can you say about Biden? He looked...ok. Tried to debate, and often couldn't. Showed real self restraint not to punch Trump in the face.

But for some reason, no one is willing to say it. Because the right has American media by the balls.

the right has American media by the balls?
Isn't historically to have been the left?

and does it even matter that there was "a winner" in a debate? who the fuck cares, most people already should (and do imo) have their mind made up by now about who they want to vote for, that's if they even want to.

The media by and large still engages in some form of "both sides" type talk. The idea that the left controls the media is just propaganda/spin from the right. Fox News is, what, the most highly rated news channel on television? Right wing youtubers are way more popular than left wing. And don't get me started on radio. What leftist radio hosts are out there? Meanwhile you've got a prominent conservative radio host in every state, plus national figures like Limbaugh, who has been around forever.

Meanwhile you've got relatively tame publications like the NY Times and WaPo. The NYT is SOOO left wing, they even published an op ed from Senator Tom Cotton urging for Trump to "send in the troops" to American cities. Don't even try me with that bullshit.

The right has the media by the balls because the right has shifted farther and farther right, becoming more extreme over time. Dems have largely stayed in the same spot. This is confirmed by political science. It's studied. I'm not bringing this up as an allegation. And it shows in who Dems have nominated vs who Conservatives have nominated. Given the shift, you would expect news organizations to become increasingly hostile towards the antics of the right (mainstream news publications always aim for the center, not the fringes), and yet we see considerable restraint.

It is because the right, especially through donald Trump starting in 2015 but even before then, have consistently labeled the media as "leftist" -- people like you seem to fall for it -- and thus the media clamors all over itself to keep a sizeable portion of it's readership (conservatives) trusting them by treating conservatives "fairly", even though the actions for which it reports on have become increasingly insane.

And if you ask Hans or Viva or anyone from outside, this is actually usually quite obvious. I often see them ask, what the fuck? Why isn't someone saying something about X [thing that a republican did]. It's obvious. The right has the media by the balls

All of this to be said, and I was too young to understand Iraq

And to be fair, I don't distrust MSM, but I can see that they've been found out, to some extent, by the alt-right.

As if to add to your excellent points above, CB. I was watching Morning Joe this morning and they were bemoaning how unfair Trump was being.

I mean it's not like they didn't know this could happen before hand. This is his modus operandi. This is how he keeps his base.

This is my central problem with Democrats in general. They won't play dirty, even if it costs them power. Republicans have no such qualms. It's why they chose Trump. This "when they go low, we go high" shit is not working. Even Michelle Obama herself, who said that quote, has admitted it doesn't work with Trump and his ilk.

Biden can stay calm and collected and yes that helps him, but he needs to balance that with surgical aggression. I disagree with Arq in that I don't believe Biden looked senile at all last night. He looked as sharp as I can remember seeing him throughout this primary and election season.

I wouldn't say he was as sharp as I can remember -- I think he looked a lot better against Bernie for example (not that I was really pulling for Biden in that debate, but I thought his performance was better). However, Bernie actually respected the rules of the debate.

Given the fact that Biden was attempting to make points with Trump uttering into the mic every couple of seconds, I thought he looked quite decent. It's easy for one to forget exactly what they were trying to say or going to say with someone constantly interrupting. I'm horrid with it. I can't even write when I'm listening to music that has words in it. And that throws you off base so that even when you're not being interrupted, you're off kilter, and it's more difficult to make the points you wanted to make (especially with the whole of America watching). So given what he was dealing with, I thought Biden did reasonably well.

I agree with you McLewis. The whole night I was telling my gf I want to see Biden get angry. And not angry like "will you shut up" or calling trump a "clown", although no one can blame him for those comments, I meant angry like when we saw him talk about Beau and Hunter. I wanted to see aggression when discussing the fact that 200,000 lives have been lost to a coward (his talking points on Trump panicking were quite decent, but could have landed more emotionally with a bit more conviction and emotion behind them).

As Joe has aged, he's lost some of that anger and become a bit more soft spoken. Understandable, given what's happened in his life since then. It has benefited him in some ways (like that speech at George Floyd's funeral). However, I would like to see some of that fire like he would show in 2012. Agreed there.

With all of that being said, I don't think many minds are being changed regardless.

Babun wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Perhaps we can do it over zoom and mute him when it's not his turn to speak? Honestly wouldn't be surprised if Biden refuses to participate in any further debates.

I didn't have time to watch the debate. Could you me a very short, unbiased summary?

Honestly hard to get unbiased with this one. Trump acted like a petulant child, constantly interrupting Biden, looking like he had absolutely no self restraint and slightly unhinged. To his credit he looked lively, aggressive, and sharp, which I'm sure played well with his core but was unlikely to offset the damage done with people trying to still make up their minds (whoever they might be). He lied and said deplorable things as per usual, but is that any news with him? does anyone care?

Biden looked like he was still trying to make up his mind between matching the aggression or taking the high road, which seems like a decision that should've been made prior to the debate. In contrast to Trump, he was soft-spoken, flat, and not as quick on the spot. His emotional appeals to the people watching on their home mostly missed the mark for me. The only times he looked like he had any fire in him was when Trump got personal.

As for the debate itself, there was no debating of ideas or even a basic exposition of what each candidate's platform. I came away no further informed than I was before, and I think that is true for most people.

But in the end it doesn't really matter, because debates don't matter unless someone flops. Trump behaved very rudely, but did he flop? Not sure.

McLewis wrote:As if to add to your excellent points above, CB. I was watching Morning Joe this morning and they were bemoaning how unfair Trump was being.

I mean it's not like they didn't know this could happen before hand. This is his modus operandi. This is how he keeps his base.

This is my central problem with Democrats in general. They won't play dirty, even if it costs them power. Republicans have no such qualms. It's why they chose Trump. This "when they go low, we go high" shit is not working. Even Michelle Obama herself, who said that quote, has admitted it doesn't work with Trump and his ilk.

Biden can stay calm and collected and yes that helps him, but he needs to balance that with surgical aggression. I disagree with Arq in that I don't believe Biden looked senile at all last night. He looked as sharp as I can remember seeing him throughout this primary and election season.

No no I should have clarified.


Biden looked quite reasonable and collected last night, unless you measure the latter stages where he began to slip up.

Not an outlandish claim but he did have an earpiece along with is sometimes pumped with certain chemicals through other parts of his body. I had no problem with Biden in that sense, despite his general state now.


But he mostly was just riding on the Trump disdain wagon and rather indecisive in how he was, thereby unassuming.

An outlandish claim I would be willing to partially believe is that his "will you shut up man" came from the heart so he could listen to his earpiece. Not important.


And I agree a winner does not matter as voters should be decided from beforehand.

You're joking about the earpiece and chemicals thing, right? I feel like it's a joke, but you never know with GL.

Arquitecto wrote:

McLewis wrote:As if to add to your excellent points above, CB. I was watching Morning Joe this morning and they were bemoaning how unfair Trump was being.

I mean it's not like they didn't know this could happen before hand. This is his modus operandi. This is how he keeps his base.

This is my central problem with Democrats in general. They won't play dirty, even if it costs them power. Republicans have no such qualms. It's why they chose Trump. This "when they go low, we go high" shit is not working. Even Michelle Obama herself, who said that quote, has admitted it doesn't work with Trump and his ilk.

Biden can stay calm and collected and yes that helps him, but he needs to balance that with surgical aggression. I disagree with Arq in that I don't believe Biden looked senile at all last night. He looked as sharp as I can remember seeing him throughout this primary and election season.

No no I should have clarified.


Biden looked quite reasonable and collected last night, unless you measure the latter stages where he began to slip up.

Not an outlandish claim but he did have an earpiece along with is sometimes pumped with certain chemicals through other parts of his body. I had no problem with Biden in that sense, despite his general state now.


But he mostly was just riding on the Trump disdain wagon and rather indecisive in how he was, thereby unassuming.

An outlandish claim I would be willing to partially believe is that his "will you shut up man" came from the heart so he could listen to his earpiece. Not important.


And I agree a winner does not matter as voters should be decided from beforehand.

We're buds, Arq so I say this coming from that: What you mentioned is a conspiracy theory being pushed by Trump and his supporters. I urge you not to believe it. There is no evidence it's true.

McLewis wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

McLewis wrote:As if to add to your excellent points above, CB. I was watching Morning Joe this morning and they were bemoaning how unfair Trump was being.

I mean it's not like they didn't know this could happen before hand. This is his modus operandi. This is how he keeps his base.

This is my central problem with Democrats in general. They won't play dirty, even if it costs them power. Republicans have no such qualms. It's why they chose Trump. This "when they go low, we go high" shit is not working. Even Michelle Obama herself, who said that quote, has admitted it doesn't work with Trump and his ilk.

Biden can stay calm and collected and yes that helps him, but he needs to balance that with surgical aggression. I disagree with Arq in that I don't believe Biden looked senile at all last night. He looked as sharp as I can remember seeing him throughout this primary and election season.

No no I should have clarified.


Biden looked quite reasonable and collected last night, unless you measure the latter stages where he began to slip up.

Not an outlandish claim but he did have an earpiece along with is sometimes pumped with certain chemicals through other parts of his body. I had no problem with Biden in that sense, despite his general state now.


But he mostly was just riding on the Trump disdain wagon and rather indecisive in how he was, thereby unassuming.

An outlandish claim I would be willing to partially believe is that his "will you shut up man" came from the heart so he could listen to his earpiece. Not important.


And I agree a winner does not matter as voters should be decided from beforehand.

We're buds, Arq so I say this coming from that: What you mentioned is a conspiracy theory being pushed by Trump and his supporters. I urge you not to believe it. There is no evidence it's true.

Thus outlandish I claimed but if it is I believe you for I have very little insight in this election amico, compared to the previous one and in which my faith in Trump rather died in early 2017, a time I also was more onto the right.


The overall course of that side of the political spectrum just has lost any steam of ideas and seem to be using the same tactics they blamed the left for some years back.

Just no identity and I first saw that when I saw how the Alt-right are actually in person.

Trump doesn't disavow such groups directly, for a reason not because I believe he is overly racist but he rallies all he can to his side.


He has lost any nuance he once had and Biden being opposite in his indolent state just has this less intriguing to follow.

Presidential debate: How the world's media reacted

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-54354405

@BarrileteCosmico and @Arquitecto :
Thanks, German media is mostly left so I care for your opinions more than for one sided Trump bashing.

CBarca wrote: Because the right has American media by the balls.

CBarca wrote:It is because the right, especially through donald Trump starting in 2015 but even before then, have consistently labeled the media as "leftist" -- people like you seem to fall for it -- and thus the media clamors all over itself to keep a sizeable portion of it's readership (conservatives) trusting them by treating conservatives "fairly", even though the actions for which it reports on have become increasingly insane.

and what exactly is people like me supposed to mean?
i was asking you a sarcastic question, hence the at the end of it because the media "being left" is another generalisation thrown around, just as you are outlandishly generalising that "the right has the media by the balls" - don't you see the irony in that? you're using the same propaganda tactics that the Trump is using only the other way around

my belief has always been that there are certain media outlets/channels who cater to conservatives and others to liberals... so pls don't decide for me what my beliefs are, mmm'kay?

Babun wrote:@BarrileteCosmico and @Arquitecto :
Thanks, German media is mostly left so I care for your opinions more than for one sided Trump bashing.

CBarca wrote: Because the right has American media by the balls.

You proved my point with the "one sided Trump bashing".

Folks, if Biden couldn't remember his name during the debate and was outclassed from start to finish, and publicly shit himself under the pressure, I would expect the media to bash him one-sidedly.

In a similar fashion, if a candidate like Trump embarrasses himself like he did last night (anecdotal note: my father, who voted for Trump in '16 and was looking like he might do so again, told me today that he felt that this was "the end" for Trump and that he "imploded", and said he felt the performance was embarrassing and disrespectful), then I expect the media to bash him one-sidedly.

Thankfully the takes one day after are starting to look better. People who said last night that "no one won the debate" are making amends, and all the polling so far indicates that Biden won.

For the record, as much as I have said that there aren't many undecideds (it's true) and thus the debates aren't as important as they usually would be...Trump REALLY needed to take a win home last night or at the very least in one of the next two debates, to get some of those undecideds on his side. He blew it though. And that DOES matter.

One is a complete disgrace to the human race period.

The other is half dead.

It wasn't even entertaining... i turned it off after 20 mins.

I agree with McL... Biden needs to take the gloves off and really put that prick back in his place.

I was ashamed with that shitshow frankly.

@barca... i disagree. there are a ton of undecided people although they won't publicly say it (only to their true family and friends). I know a ton of them. Heck, I was one of them until last night.

It wasn't anything that Biden did. Moreso Trump disgusted me with how rude he was and his utter lack of class. Enough is enough. I completely disagree with most of what the Dems propose... but at the end of the day, you can't have that buffoon stay president.

The fact that these are our only choices is a big disgrace in itself.

sportsczy wrote:@barca... i disagree. there are a ton of undecided people although they won't publicly say it (only to their true family and friends). I know a ton of them. Heck, I was one of them until last night.

It wasn't anything that Biden did. Moreso Trump disgusted me with how rude he was and his utter lack of class. Enough is enough. I completely disagree with most of what the Dems propose... but at the end of the day, you can't have that buffoon stay president.

The fact that these are our only choices is a big disgrace in itself.

Do your part and vote for Ranked Choice Voting whenever you can. It's currently on the ballot for MA and I strongly feel that it should win. The only way to get over this is to end the 2 party system where you are constantly asked to choose the lesser evil, and for that to happen first past the post must end.

Done. I was planning on doing that anyhow or just not voting if it wasn't an option.

Not that it matters in NYC anyhow. DeBlasio was voted in as mayor TWICE ffs. How that happens is beyond me.

CBarca wrote:

Babun wrote:@BarrileteCosmico and @Arquitecto :
Thanks, German media is mostly left so I care for your opinions more than for one sided Trump bashing.

CBarca wrote: Because the right has American media by the balls.

You proved my point with the "one sided Trump bashing".

Folks, if Biden couldn't remember his name during the debate and was outclassed from start to finish, and publicly shit himself under the pressure, I would expect the media to bash him one-sidedly.

In a similar fashion, if a candidate like Trump embarrasses himself like he did last night (anecdotal note: my father, who voted for Trump in '16 and was looking like he might do so again, told me today that he felt that this was "the end" for Trump and that he "imploded", and said he felt the performance was embarrassing and disrespectful), then I expect the media to bash him one-sidedly.

Thankfully the takes one day after are starting to look better. People who said last night that "no one won the debate" are making amends, and all the polling so far indicates that Biden won.

For the record, as much as I have said that there aren't many undecideds (it's true) and thus the debates aren't as important as they usually would be...Trump REALLY needed to take a win home last night or at the very least in one of the next two debates, to get some of those undecideds on his side. He blew it though. And that DOES matter.

No, you interpreted and put stuff into my mouth I never said. I wanted to know how Biden performed, how bad Trump was and why he was bad. In most media outlets over here, there's Trump bashing over single quotes but no proper summaries (I'm not kidding). Or do you think BarrileteCosmico is rightwing, for I asked for his opinion?
You didn't get the irony either. You saying right wing media has got USA by the balls.. think more about it. As a teacher you should come to the conclusion by yourself. It was the very rare moment I agreed in principle with elgunner

Babun wrote:@BarrileteCosmico and @Arquitecto :
Thanks, German media is mostly left so I care for your opinions more than for one sided Trump bashing.

CBarca wrote: Because the right has American media by the balls.

No it's not, you just feel that way, because reality seems left-wing if you're a right winger.

But Germany's largest newspaper is Bild, it's most widely read is the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and the biggest non-tabloid daily is the Welt, all of those are right-wing papers, and TV news from RTL and Sat 1 are hardly left-wing, while the public TV news from ZDF, ARD etc is clearly centrist.

All free market media is right wing. The news might not represent it, but their interest do.