The Matriarchy= Apocalypse

That video is really old. I remember watching that before #MeToo and all this talk about toxic masculinity and oppressing patriarchies.

This one is more recent, and the comments crack me up.

How about, men on the buss stop manspreading for a moment? If you disagree, you're part of the problem. CB, Rincon - let's start a crowdfunding campaign against the crazy majority of straight, white men who take up too much space on the bus because of patriarchy #MeToo? That's old news. #AllInAgainstImportantIssues, #FemaleEmpowerment. Imagine the revenue when we get this thing started

The Madrid One wrote:I think it is insultingly simple and clear why there's so much wrong with that Gillette video. Sure, the message of respect and equality for all  is ideal, but this video does not represent that. The video is symptomatic of the shaming against men that exists today. It's a nuanced topic that lots of leftist sheep are totally missing.

I get the same impression. If you scroll down the comment section, you'll see some people pointing out that they don't see what's wrong with the commercial, and they seem firm in their conviction that it's only theme is "happiness" or whatever. That seems incredibly dense, to me. The commercial doesn't particularly offend me, but I think the subliminal message is quite clear. Wrapping it up as some kind of family-oriented, inspirational video doesn't change the underlying message, and I think even the most progressive and women sympathizing members of this forum would've seen what's wrong with it, if it was aimed at women from a male standpoint.

At 40:20, Stephen Fry talks briefly about the modern left, or the "regressive left". And I think he does so in a grounded, sensible and articulate way.

McLewis wrote:So in your opinion, guys,..... What do the terms "man up" or "grow a pair" mean to you?

Why are these terms different from simply "step up to the plate", "take charge", "take control", "be brave", "seize the day" or more plainly "take responsibility"?

The term, "manhood" is almost extinct here. I live in a progressive country and such terms seem to commonly be deemed divisive, these days. My definition of manhood is to possess, or being able to showcase the qualities that men typically have to a larger extent than women - physical strength and being able to solve issues that women more commonly struggle with, due to the differences in emotional response, depending on the situation.

The expectations related to manhood aren't fair for everyone, since not all men possess the qualities that men are supposed to be inherently better at, but those expectations seem to be shared among both men and women. Men and women, generally speaking, have different strengths and weaknesses, and that's the basis for our gender expectations. One could argue that some expectations may be a bit unreasonable, unfair, or has room for improvement, but I wouldn't want to live in a society where we strive for equality of outcome in this regard. Or in any regard, for that matter. It's baffling that the people who push for equality of outcome, don't seem to have even mentally prepared themselves for a society were everything is equal. That would be a depressing society with a shit ton of issues.

McLewis wrote:

Doc wrote:Interesting question, gonna try to be honest and coherent in my response.

"Manning up" or "grow a pair", to me, is not being a coward in the face of adversity. To face a challenging situation head on and whatever the outcome maybe, you do your best. Sure, you can say all those things (they all carry the same meaning anyway) but this just carries more punch by saying "man up, stop being an ass!" since you're going at another man's manhood. Or his perceived manhood.

The follow up question might be "what do you consider manhood or your definition?" and I don't really have a concrete answer to that. I do know, as a man, you gotta find a balance in being assertive but at the same time acknowledge that you gotta actually fucking listen and learn to understand ever so often.

Thanks for the thoughtful answer, Doc.

I personally see the concept of "manhood" in purely biological terms. Hitting puberty, experiencing a drop in our voices, in our balls, beating the meat for the first time and experiencing the result of that, growing hair everywhere, experiencing heightened aggression, etc....these are all events in "manhood" because they are exclusively unique to us as men. Working hard, starting a family, making tough decisions, defending that family and providing for it are not. Women do this too and have done this for millennia. I personally was raised by a single mother. She was both my mom and my dad so I learned virtually everything about being an adult from her.  How to be a man in the modern world? Well I learned that mostly from a combo of pop culture and male figures in my life, some bad and some good, but all useful. So I think when a man is told to "man up" or "show some balls" as a means of hearkening back to the rather archaic hunter-gather trope of the male being primarily the one that must take responsibility in a situation, it never fails to occur to me that "step up" would be just as effective yet modern society seems stuck on attributing this in purely patriarchal terms. We are a product our upbringing, however, so it's no real mystery that those of us who grew up with a dad who was the main breadwinner or even with a single dad will subscribe to the "man up" side of this concept while those of us who grew up on the polar opposite side of that spectrum won't.

Thimmy wrote:

McLewis wrote:So in your opinion, guys,..... What do the terms "man up" or "grow a pair" mean to you?

Why are these terms different from simply "step up to the plate", "take charge", "take control", "be brave", "seize the day" or more plainly "take responsibility"?

The term, "manhood" is almost extinct here. I live in a progressive country and such terms seem to commonly be deemed divisive, these days. My definition of manhood is to possess, or being able to showcase the qualities that men typically have to a larger extent than women - physical strength and being able to solve issues that women more commonly struggle with, due to the differences in emotional response, depending on the situation.

The expectations related to manhood aren't fair for everyone, since not all men possess the qualities that men are supposed to be inherently better at, but those expectations seem to be shared among both men and women. Men and women, generally speaking, have different strengths and weaknesses, and that's the basis for our gender expectations. One could argue that some expectations may be a bit unreasonable, unfair, or has room for improvement, but I wouldn't want to live in a society where we strive for equality of outcome in this regard. Or in any regard, for that matter. It's baffling that the people who push for equality of outcome, don't seem to have even mentally prepared themselves for a society were everything is equal. That would be a depressing society with a shit ton of issues.

Thanks for your thoughtful post as well, Thimmy.

So what I highlighted in red is quite a curious comment. Can you elaborate with examples to support this notion?

Regarding the rest, this leads me to another question. Physical strength is a given as men are biologically built to be physically stronger than women. That's true of virtually all mammals. No disagreement there. However, when it comes to mental, emotional or psychological strength and overall ability, I fail to see where men are better than women or vice-versa. Are you referring to testosterone and estrogen being the dominant hormone in each respective gender? What are some positions in modern society (excluding those where physical strength is the primary requirement) that women are incapable of doing better than men?

I'm not talking about being better at something, I'm referring to how women are typically more emotional, and perhaps more relevantly - expected to show more of a feminine side, which makes certain tasks more suited to, or expected to be taken care of by men. Needless to say, that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't women who can handle those tasks better than men. An arbitrary example would be, getting rid of an insect in the house. Typically, women would prefer if men took care of such tasks. As much as some may believe it's a negative social perception or expectation towards them, women who can squash bugs without flinching, or get blisters on their hands from doing DIY work around the house, aren't conventionally considered as desirable as those who don't. Modern feminists can rage at men all they want, for harboring these expectations, but I don't believe that's ever going to change. Men like women who display feminine trats, women like men who display masculine traits. Obviously, that doesn't mean that femininity or masculinity are desired in any and all situations, it doesn't mean that all women want men to approach them with blunt and overwhelming confidence, or that men always appreciate it when conceited women approach them in a similar fashion.

Men who cry or get emotional from watching sappy, "chick flicks" are most often seen as being outside the norm, and therefore not representing their gender in an "ideal" or expected way. Women and men are different, and I firmly believe that we are attracted to these differences. Some of the differences are genetical, and some are clearly based on expectations for us to be different. I don't even want to imagine what our interactions would be like, if we were all the same. The way we view genders in our societies isn't always perfect, but like TMO pointed out, it's a nuanced topic that is unfortunately treated with extreme rhetorics, as a means of pushing forward certain agendas. I don't think "he or she is better at.." is the most fitting way to describe the differences between men and women. It's fair to be a Tomboy or a guy who's more emotional than average, if that's how your genes and/or your social upbringing has shaped your personality, but blaming society for it, doesn't solve anything. My belief is that if society caters too much to the need of this minority that doesn't fit the norms, then the majority will have to pay for it. Modern feminists aren't doing themselves, or anyone else any favors by suggesting that this is how it should be.  

I've watched a lot of videos on the gender and feminism debate, and I know there are a lot of sensible people among both men and women who have a more nuanced view on it, but the power and influence of these emotionally fueled individuals who aggressively push for so called "womens' rights" or "trans rights" can be quite scary sometimes. For instance, as much as I like to write off recently "enlightened", Hollywood celebrities as insignificant airheads in this debate, they possess the power to potentially influence substantial amounts of impressionable kids and young adults. I wish I could take Hans' laidback stance and just say "everyone's just exaggerating, it'll all work out, ya silly divas". Presumably, he lives in an area that's unaffected by these changes. But I've witnessed first hand how much of an effect the indoctrination of this new wave feminism can have on young people, and it can be quite surreal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/?fbclid=IwAR2Y9ao5S3J43-YuQ8WYgNsa3VIrgc04sVflBj7Dks6209NAldu86rRObbc&noredirect=on&utm_term=.f6488b1d76f9

To those of you who can't be bothered to read the full article:

There are also ways in which men deal with sexism and gender oppression that I was not aware of when I was walking around in a female body. A couple of years after my transition, I had a grad student I’d been mentoring. She started coming on to me, stalking me, sending me emails and texts. My adviser and the dean — both women — laughed it off. It went on for the better part of a year, and that was the year that I was going up for tenure. It was a very scary time. I felt very worried that if the student felt I was not returning her attentions she would claim that I had assaulted her. I felt like as a guy, I was not taken seriously. I had experienced harassment as a female person at another university and they had reacted immediately, sending a police escort with me to and from campus. I felt like if I had still been in my old body I would have gotten a lot more support.

Prior to my transition, I was an outspoken radical feminist. I spoke up often, loudly and with confidence. I was encouraged to speak up. I was given awards for my efforts, literally — it was like, “Oh, yeah, speak up, speak out.” When I speak up now, I am often given the direct or indirect message that I am “mansplaining,” “taking up too much space” or “asserting my white male heterosexual privilege.” Never mind that I am a first-generation Mexican American, a transsexual man, and married to the same woman I was with prior to my transition.

I can recall a moment where this difference hit home. A couple of years into my medical gender transition, I was traveling on a public bus early one weekend morning. There were six people on the bus, including me. One was a woman. She was talking on a mobile phone very loudly and remarked that “men are such a–holes.” I immediately looked up at her and then around at the other men. Not one had lifted his head to look at the woman or anyone else. The woman saw me look at her and then commented to the person she was speaking with about “some a–hole on the bus right now looking at me.” I was stunned, because I recall being in similar situations, but in the reverse, many times: A man would say or do something deemed obnoxious or offensive, and I would find solidarity with the women around me as we made eye contact, rolled our eyes and maybe even commented out loud on the situation. I’m not sure I understand why the men did not respond, but it made a lasting impression on me.

I thought this article on life as a man, from the perspective of women who have transitioned into becoming men, was a really interesting read.