Nationalism in Europe [Controversial]

Unique wrote:

Thimmy wrote:There was recently a music festival in Sweden that banned men, supposedly due to the high rape statistics at Swedish music festivals. I don't know what kind of signals that was supposed to send, but Swedish feminism never ceases to amaze me

how much of this is down to swedish men.

Even if I cared to find out, I'm sure accurate statistics for immigrant Swedes specifically, would be a lot harder to dig up due to how Swedish politics work.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

guest7 wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:


sounds like an absolute disaster to me

but hey it's a free country

depending on just how strict they want those laws to be obviously

Sweden has the least strict laws in Europe. You could get like 4 years for rape. It's a joke tbh and stricter laws has for a very long time been sought after!

Yeah but then not wanting to use a condom counts as rape in Sweden so I'd say 4 years jail is appropriate for that

That's recently. There were law changes that made it so no actual violence or force had to be used to be counted as rape. Bolded because of how insane it sounds. In actuality you could get 4 years for real rape in 2017. This year they changed the law so they can convict more rapists because alot of them are escaping punishment completly!

It's fascinating how much the conversation regards to this issue has changed over the past 3 years. Very interesting to see "immigrants" debate it with European locals at contrasting viewpoints. Enjoyed reading all the posts

I have a Kurdish friend who's born in Sweden, speaks perfect Swedish, has a great job and was an active member of a very left (I'd say Leninist) party in 2015 facilitating work for new immigrants etc ... Now he's been expelled from the party and smeared as a "racist" because he brought up the issue of better integration, more controlled immigration and no-go zones and has been smeared and completely ostracized to the point that he told me he's considering voting for SD this fall

The Left's recipe for winning back some votes and trust in Europe is so simple ... yet it evades them.

Meanwhile in Greater Toronto Area, world's most multicultural city....same story, Chinese community protesting the resettlement of 5,000 migrants in Markham:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/fists-fly-and-so-does-a-megaphone-as-refugee-crisis-inflames-local-politics-in-toronto-area

Zagadka wrote:It's fascinating how much the conversation regards to this issue has changed over the past 3 years. Very interesting to see "immigrants" debate it with European locals at contrasting viewpoints. Enjoyed reading all the posts

I have a Kurdish friend who's born in Sweden, speaks perfect Swedish, has a great job and was an active member of a very left (I'd say Leninist) party in 2015 facilitating work for new immigrants etc ... Now he's been expelled from the party and smeared as a "racist" because he brought up the issue of better integration, more controlled immigration and no-go zones and has been smeared and completely ostracized to the point that he told me he's considering voting for SD this fall

The Left's recipe for winning back some votes and trust in Europe is so simple ... yet it evades them.

Meanwhile in Greater Toronto Area, world's most multicultural city....same story, Chinese community protesting the resettlement of 5,000 migrants in Markham:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/fists-fly-and-so-does-a-megaphone-as-refugee-crisis-inflames-local-politics-in-toronto-area

Yeah, I've talked to a few Norwegians and Swedes with foreign backgrounds who are concerned about the situation regarding crime and vandalism in certain, immigration- dense areas, as well. No one listens to them, because natives who live in more up-scale, homogenous areas tend to treat them as if they're exaggerating, and they risk facing the wrath of their fellow countrymen if they attempt to create public discourse and action to prevent or solve the issues. Sweden are lucky to have strong, actually intelligent activists with immigrant backgrounds like, Mona Walter, who recognizes the issues and actually dares to talk about them in public. Norway doesn't have that luxury, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to take a few no-go zones here before we get that luxury.

Thimmy wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:While I'm not against tougher sentences for many crimes, it's not like any statistic has ever proven that deterrence works, traditionally the countries with the softest punishments have had the least amount of crime.

Sweden have the highest rape statistics per capita in Europe. Some of their politicians will have you believe that their numbers are inflated because the statistics allegedly count sexual harrasment as rape

If by "some of their politicians" you mean "every proper statistician, ever", then yes. That is why those numbers are inflated, no idea why this is worth a smiley to you.

VivaStPauli wrote:

Thimmy wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:While I'm not against tougher sentences for many crimes, it's not like any statistic has ever proven that deterrence works, traditionally the countries with the softest punishments have had the least amount of crime.

Sweden have the highest rape statistics per capita in Europe. Some of their politicians will have you believe that their numbers are inflated because the statistics allegedly count sexual harrasment as rape

If by "some of their politicians" you mean "every proper statistician, ever", then yes. That is why those numbers are inflated, no idea why this is worth a smiley to you.

Are you saying that "every proper statistician, ever" counts sexual harrasment as rape? This definition was introduced in Sweden in recent years. If I'm not mistaken, you or Hans also reacted when I discussed this topic in a different thread, some time ago. A few Swedish politicians have repeatedly responded to questions regarding record high rape reports, by justifying it with inflated numbers as a result of a weak, statistical definition, which, again, was introduced in recent years, and allegedly includes butt pinching and other actions you'd typically associate with sexual harrasment. I don't know why you care about the smiley, but I find this funny considering I'm familiar with these statistics being swept under the rug by our local police forces.

I understand why they withold these statistics, but the excuses and weak attempts at signalling "there's nothing wrong here, move along", are completely pointless when most of the population are fully aware that rape has hit an all time high in Sweden. Banning men from music festivals is silly, but I'd wager they didn't do so because of pigs that go around pinching women's butts. Now, what is your point exactly?

VivaStPauli wrote:

Thimmy wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:While I'm not against tougher sentences for many crimes, it's not like any statistic has ever proven that deterrence works, traditionally the countries with the softest punishments have had the least amount of crime.

Sweden have the highest rape statistics per capita in Europe. Some of their politicians will have you believe that their numbers are inflated because the statistics allegedly count sexual harrasment as rape

If by "some of their politicians" you mean "every proper statistician, ever", then yes. That is why those numbers are inflated, no idea why this is worth a smiley to you.

honest question here mate but why do you down play these things. its a fact that governments in europe cover up most of these crimes yet we still get to hear about lots of them. are you saying that the sexual harassment of young girls in germany by immagrants is a lie. is there not a problem in public swimming pools with immagrants groping young girls.

Thimmy wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:

Thimmy wrote:


Sweden have the highest rape statistics per capita in Europe. Some of their politicians will have you believe that their numbers are inflated because the statistics allegedly count sexual harrasment as rape

If by "some of their politicians" you mean "every proper statistician, ever", then yes. That is why those numbers are inflated, no idea why this is worth a smiley to you.

Are you saying that "every proper statistician, ever" counts sexual harrasment as rape? This definition was introduced in Sweden in recent years. If I'm not mistaken, you or Hans also reacted when I discussed this topic in a different thread, some time ago. A few Swedish politicians have repeatedly responded to questions regarding record high rape reports, by justifying it with inflated numbers as a result of a weak, statistical definition, which, again, was introduced in recent years, and allegedly includes butt pinching and other actions you'd typically associate with sexual harrasment. I don't know why you care about the smiley, but I find this funny considering I'm familiar with these statistics being swept under the rug by our local police forces.

I understand why they withold these statistics, but the excuses and weak attempts at signalling "there's nothing wrong here, move along", are completely pointless when most of the population are fully aware that rape has hit an all time high in Sweden. Banning men from music festivals is silly, but I'd wager they didn't do so because of pigs that go around pinching women's butts. Now, what is your point exactly?

As far as I can tell sexual harrassment is not part of the statistics. Sexual Assault is. Because that would be classified as bodily harm or assault in other nations.

Also another factor is that a rape by a significant other in some countries would count as one instance, it can be inflated in Sweden's statistics as it can count as multiple crimes.

That is where the every statistician ever comment would fit. Every proper statistician would use the actual statistic information. And since Sweden has a different way of counting these sex crimes stats, it would be hard for any proper statistician to compare.

You made it sound like from your post, that there isn't a difference between the countries, and that politicians lie about that. There might be a problem, but they're not wrong about the statistic part of the argument.

Hell, the fact that Germany didn't recognise that you could be raped without physically struggling until 2016 could most likely have made their stats seem lesser.

Freeza wrote:

Thimmy wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:

If by "some of their politicians" you mean "every proper statistician, ever", then yes. That is why those numbers are inflated, no idea why this is worth a smiley to you.

Are you saying that "every proper statistician, ever" counts sexual harrasment as rape? This definition was introduced in Sweden in recent years. If I'm not mistaken, you or Hans also reacted when I discussed this topic in a different thread, some time ago. A few Swedish politicians have repeatedly responded to questions regarding record high rape reports, by justifying it with inflated numbers as a result of a weak, statistical definition, which, again, was introduced in recent years, and allegedly includes butt pinching and other actions you'd typically associate with sexual harrasment. I don't know why you care about the smiley, but I find this funny considering I'm familiar with these statistics being swept under the rug by our local police forces.

I understand why they withold these statistics, but the excuses and weak attempts at signalling "there's nothing wrong here, move along", are completely pointless when most of the population are fully aware that rape has hit an all time high in Sweden. Banning men from music festivals is silly, but I'd wager they didn't do so because of pigs that go around pinching women's butts. Now, what is your point exactly?

As far as I can tell sexual harrassment is not part of the statistics. Sexual Assault is. Because that would be classified as bodily harm or assault in other nations.

Also another factor is that a rape by a significant other in some countries would count as one instance, it can be inflated in Sweden's statistics as it can count as multiple crimes.

That is where the every statistician ever comment would fit. Every proper statistician would use the actual statistic information. And since Sweden has a different way of counting these sex crimes stats, it would be hard for any proper statistician to compare.

You made it sound like from your post, that there isn't a difference between the countries, and that politicians lie about that. There might be a problem, but they're not wrong about the statistic part of the argument.

Hell, the fact that Germany didn't recognise that you could be raped without physically struggling until 2016 could most likely have made their stats seem lesser.

are you nit picking about what should be classed as rape or sexual assault in sweden to down play the problem.

No I'm saying there's an actual factual difference from what classifies in these statistics, and Sweden is unique in its own case. Not trying to comment on the problem.

I'm saying Sweden doesn't classify between different degrees of sexual assault. Where as some countries with lower numbers might only consider a forceful entry as a rape.

There's layers to this discussion. But there's definitely a problem with the lack of integration and mental help for refugees. I have never said otherwise. My entire argument from the start on this subject is that we should never, ever, go into a war, if we can't clean up after ourselves, and help the survivors.

Personally I feel Sweden are too soft on everything. But the right wing isn't the right party to combat that thing. It should be possible to discuss the problems of refugees, immigrants etc. without getting racist, which I feel happens every single time.

What is so complicated about this?

Sweden counts way more crimes in it's "sexual violence" statistics than other countries, hence the inflated statistics, iE if Sweden tells you it has this many occurrences of "sexual violence" it's numbers are going to look a lot bigger (iE worse) than, say, those of Britain, or Germany, because "minor" non-rape assaults aren't included in our statistics, while they are in Sweden.

There is nothing funny or laughable about that, it just mean that you can't plainly compare Swedens numbers to other countries' and conclude that Sweden has a huge problem of sexual assault. Sweden just reports almost all instances of sexual assault and even harassment (though not all of the latter) in it's statistics, while many other countries don't.

I've had this discussion many times now on this board, I know you guys want the facts to fit your preconceptions, but maybe you should form your opinions from what the facts support, not the other way around?

Freeza wrote:No I'm saying there's an actual factual difference from what classifies in these statistics, and Sweden is unique in its own case. Not trying to comment on the problem.

I'm saying Sweden doesn't classify between different degrees of sexual assault. Where as some countries with lower numbers might only consider a forceful entry as a rape.

There's layers to this discussion. But there's definitely a problem with the lack of integration and mental help for refugees. I have never said otherwise. My entire argument from the start on this subject is that we should never, ever, go into a war, if we can't clean up after ourselves, and help the survivors.

Personally I feel Sweden are too soft on everything. But the right wing isn't the right party to combat that thing. It should be possible to discuss the problems of refugees, immigrants etc. without getting racist, which I feel happens every single time.

but i fail to see how me or anyone else pointing out a very real problem is racist. the problem has nothing to do with the colour of a persons skin. the problem comes from the way people act and think.

VivaStPauli wrote:What is so complicated about this?

Sweden counts way more crimes in it's "sexual violence" statistics than other countries, hence the inflated statistics, iE if Sweden tells you it has this many occurrences of "sexual violence" it's numbers are going to look a lot bigger (iE worse) than, say, those of Britain, or Germany, because "minor" non-rape assaults aren't included in our statistics, while they are in Sweden.

There is nothing funny or laughable about that, it just mean that you can't plainly compare Swedens numbers to other countries' and conclude that Sweden has a huge problem of sexual assault.  Sweden just reports almost all instances of sexual assault and even harassment (though not all of the latter) in it's statistics, while many other countries don't.

I've had this discussion many times now on this board, I know you guys want the facts to fit your preconceptions, but maybe you should form your opinions from what the facts support, not the other way around?

so what about the new years assults that took place in germany. and what about the assults and groping of young girls in public swimming pools in germany. did they not happen. what about the young girls that are told to cover up and not walk in no go areas in germany what do you think about these problems

I have no f'ing idea what you're trying to say at any point ever

Unique wrote:

Freeza wrote:

Unique wrote: I think a lot of Germans are scared of being called nazi racist after what went on in ww2 so they think they have to be over nice and not say anything.

Or they have actually learned from history aside from every other nation in Europe. There's moderate way to protect your country from different issues.

Far right is never the answer.

there is a missive middle ground between putting your foot down and trying to wipe out millions of people.

That seems to be the theme, yeah. My nation probably suffered most because of Hitler yet we are as right-wing as a country can be. Hitler wasn't just a nationalist, he was a lunatic. There's a difference between putting your people's interests first and wiping entire races. Completely different things.

Freeza wrote:I have no f'ing idea what you're trying to say at any point ever

ok let me make it clear. I would not risk the safety of 1 young girl in Britain to save 10000 refugees.

VivaStPauli wrote:What is so complicated about this?

Sweden counts way more crimes in it's "sexual violence" statistics than other countries, hence the inflated statistics, iE if Sweden tells you it has this many occurrences of "sexual violence" it's numbers are going to look a lot bigger (iE worse) than, say, those of Britain, or Germany, because "minor" non-rape assaults aren't included in our statistics, while they are in Sweden.

There is nothing funny or laughable about that, it just mean that you can't plainly compare Swedens numbers to other countries' and conclude that Sweden has a huge problem of sexual assault.  Sweden just reports almost all instances of sexual assault and even harassment (though not all of the latter) in it's statistics, while many other countries don't.

I've had this discussion many times now on this board, I know you guys want the facts to fit your preconceptions, but maybe you should form your opinions from what the facts support, not the other way around?

I don't believe I've had this discussion with you before, although I believe I recall you entering a discussion with the same, self-righteous attitude when I mentioned that I have an acquintance in the Oslo police force who was told by his superiors to not reveal controversially high statistics regarding immigrant crimes in a public statement on the news.

I'm not arguing against the claim that the statistics that are released to the public may be inflated due to a vague definition. I believe that's self-explanatory. How it compares to statistics of other countries isn't particularly relevant, the fact of the matter is that it's higher than it was in the past. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the one who seems to have the preconception that I'm just being hysterical, and I should just listen to the inconstestable "facts" and statistics that are shoved down my throat by politicians as a means of damage limitation.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, Swedes who aren't completely dense are already aware that the rates of rape in the country has increased substantially compared to in the past. It's not as if these things just start occurring and slip under the radar of the population. I believe that was very evident before the statistics were released, and so it's plain ridiculous, and completely unnecessary for politicians or anyone else to justify the increase by pointing towards numbers that may or may not be inflated - perhaps my explanation was vague, but that was my only point. I don't know why you made such a fuzz out of it. It's ironic for you to talk about facts and opinions, when, as far as I can tell, all you have to go by is experience from a somewhat similar setting in your own country. You also seem to have me pegged as someone who's on the other side of the political spectrum compared to your own, judging by your condescending tone.

Freeza wrote:

There's layers to this discussion. But there's definitely a problem with the lack of integration and mental help for refugees. I have never said otherwise. My entire argument from the start on this subject is that we should never, ever, go into a war, if we can't clean up after ourselves, and help the survivors.

Personally I feel Sweden are too soft on everything. But the right wing isn't the right party to combat that thing. It should be possible to discuss the problems of refugees, immigrants etc. without getting racist, which I feel happens every single time.

Like you say, Sweden is unique. I've talked to a few immigrants in Sweden, and I was surprised at how many of them travelled through Germany and Denmark because they were under the impression that Sweden was some kind of paradise with exceptional health benefits and whatnot. I don't blame the immigrants for this, naturally you would want to ensure that you have the best quality of life for your family, and I would've definitely done the same thing if I were in their shoes. However, this, coupled with the fact that Sweden took it upon themselves to accept more immigrants than they could sustain, has caused a lot of issues.

The economic divide in Swedish society has widened in recent years, and that's also something that I believe will prove troublesome for them in the future, as it tends to work against social communion, and is a common explanation for increased crime rates. Yeah, ideally, we should be able to deal with the issues internally and provide help at the same time, but Sweden just seems to have such a beta mentality that they continuously cause more issues for themselves than they manage to fix. I think I mentioned before that Sweden are obsessed with being at the forefront of social justice, and that's something that will likely cause them a lot of trouble in the long term, as sustainability doesn't seem to be as high on their list of priorities, whether it's in regard to feminism, immigration, or any of the other things that Sweden seem to be notably invested in.

It must be tough to be a Swedish voter, right now. You have the left, who seem like they want to do as little as possible, and then you have the right, who's ultimate intentions are hard to predict. I find it hard to imagine that a political party with racist intentions would ever have any significant influence in a massively leftist country like Sweden, but at the same time, no one really wants to put that to the test. I voted for the progress party because I agree with most of their policies. I'm not so sure I would've have taken my chances on voting for the democratic party in Sweden though, although Åkesson seems like a sensible, intelligent and down to earth type.

Unique wrote:so what about the new years assults that took place in germany.

What about them? They happened, were horrible, it's not news that our police force sucks.

and what about the assults and groping of young girls in public swimming pools in germany.

Don't know anything about that mate.

did they not happen.

The New Year's Eve one certainly happened, I'm not happy about it, and people should be in jail for it.

what about the young girls that are told to cover up and not walk in no go areas in germany what do you think about these problems

No go areas? You been reading Trump tweets? I mean I wouldn't exactly walk down the Kaiserstraße in Frankfurt in a bikini if I were a lady, because the local hookers might mistake you for competition, but what are you on about?

His whataboutisms are ridiculous. They don't make sense at all.

It went from commenting on how statistics are counted in Sweden (all factual) --> What about these specific rapes in Germany, did they not happen?

I feel like we skipped like 40 steps in a nonsense discussions. And for that, I am grateful.

Thimmy wrote:I mentioned that I have an acquintance in the Oslo police force who was told by his superiors to not reveal controversially high statistics regarding immigrant crimes in a public statement on the news.

Last time I checked Oslo wasn't in Sweden, and one guy is just one guy, not an entire statistic.

I'm not arguing against the claim that the statistics that are released to the public may be inflated due to a vague definition.

I must've misunderstood you then, because that's what I thought you were arguing. Sorry, mate.

the fact of the matter is that it's higher than it was in the past.

Yeah because more crimes are being reported, and statistically processed, not because more are committed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the one who seems to have the preconception that I'm just being hysterical, and I should just listen to the inconstestable "facts" and statistics that are shoved down my throat by politicians as a means of damage limitation.

I'll correct you where you are wrong:
I think you're just being hysterical, and you should listen to the very contestable facts and statistics that researchers are offering you for consumption. If politicians keep repeating certain numbers, you are quite smart to double-check those, but if several serious statisticians, and their varying institutes of learning or research happen to agree, maybe your friends cousin's room mates' uncle's milk man back in college from Oslo was wrong, or just an exception?

Like I mentioned in my previous post, Swedes who aren't completely dense are already aware that the rates of rape in the country has increased substantially compared to in the past. It's not as if these things just start occurring and slip under the radar of the population.

Listen. I'm not Swedish, I don't live in Sweden. I just know what I read in news papers, scientific studies, research magazines, and what Swedes tell me, but I really think you won't be gaining any insights if you just outright assume that everyone not agreeing with you is being dense.

I believe that was very evident before the statistics were released

Unless you can be everywhere, at every time, at once, you really should probably not have been able to see evidence of anything, before statistics were released.

I'm not saying I am 100% certain you are wrong. I'm saying it is probably more logical to believe the statistics corroborated by many different institutes over hearsay. If it turns out that those statistics have indeed been manipulated by crooked politicians, I whole-heartedly promise you that I will apologize to you, and change my opinion on the matter.

Freeza wrote:His whataboutisms are ridiculous. They don't make sense at all.

It went from commenting on how statistics are counted in Sweden (all factual) --> What about these specific rapes in Germany, did they not happen?

I feel like we skipped like 40 steps in a nonsense discussions. And for that, I am grateful.

So it's not just me, then? Good.

Freeza wrote:His whataboutisms are ridiculous. They don't make sense at all.

It went from commenting on how statistics are counted in Sweden (all factual) --> What about these specific rapes in Germany, did they not happen?

I feel like we skipped like 40 steps in a nonsense discussions. And for that, I am grateful.

we were talking about the rapes and sex crimes in Sweden and how lots of them are covered up by the police. Then viva said that’s not true and it only looks bad in Sweden because of how the stats are done so by implying that immigrants are not really committing these crimes. So I pointed out that the crimes that people like you and him try to wash under the bridge are also happened in Germany. But I think it’s clear to see that you and viva are not bothered about how many Young girls are beaten and raped as long as them nice people keep flooding Europe.

No one said they weren’t happening. You lack so much reading comprehension it’s not even funny. I won’t spend any more of my life trying to write a post you can’t comprehend anyways.

Incredible how you don’t even understand one language.

I should probably be offended, but I'll actually explain myself:

I am very against beating and raping young girls, or anyone, for that matter. I just have not seen convincing evidence that such crimes are disproportionally being committed by migrants, or refugees.

You have to wonder why some people do there best to make excuses for the crimes these people commit. A bunch of men acting like animals are more important to some people than innocent young kids.