Nationalism in Europe [Controversial]

VivaStPauli wrote:I should probably be offended, but I'll actually explain myself:

I am very against beating and raping young girls, or anyone, for that matter. I just have not seen convincing evidence that such crimes are disproportionally being committed by migrants, or refugees.

Unique wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:I should probably be offended, but I'll actually explain myself:

I am very against beating and raping young girls, or anyone, for that matter. I just have not seen convincing evidence that such crimes are disproportionally being committed by migrants, or refugees.

that’s because you close your eyes to it. Thimmy told you facts about the problem and you refuse to believe it. Masses of cases have been reported about it all around Europe and you refuse to believe it. Why do you think everyone is lying about it. Its people like you that put these kids at risk. Thimmy told you he has a friend in the police force that told him about how the police force have been told to cover up crimes by immigrants and yet you think he’s lying to you.

Freeza wrote:I'm seriously wondering where he got all that from. The last two pages have been arguing what they count as a specific kind of crime.

Even came at me for saying that Sweden could have higher numbers in one certain type of crime, while other countries might have more of another because of how they compile them.

Never did anyone say nothing has happened. I have even said refugee situation has been a problem multiple times. Just because I think a huge part of it is our nations' fault, because of our constant warmongering and profitering in their countries, and it's the right thing to do, doesn't mean you can't the horrible integration that's happening in a lot of European nations.

VivaStPauli wrote:

Thimmy wrote:I mentioned that I have an acquintance in the Oslo police force who was told by his superiors to not reveal controversially high statistics regarding immigrant crimes in a public statement on the news.

Last time I checked Oslo wasn't in Sweden, and one guy is just one guy, not an entire statistic.

- That was only a reference to a post of mine in a different thread, that I vaguely recall you or Hans replying to. Judging by how self-rightous you've sounded in your previous replies in this thread, I figured you were somehow angry about something I've mentioned in the past. I don't recall any other discussions I've had with you.

I'm not arguing against the claim that the statistics that are released to the public may be inflated due to a vague definition.

I must've misunderstood you then, because that's what I thought you were arguing. Sorry, mate.

- I figured it was a misunderstanding. I honestly still don't get why you seemingly got so riled up about it, though.

the fact of the matter is that it's higher than it was in the past.

Yeah because more crimes are being reported, and statistically processed, not because more are committed.

-What makes you so certain that more crimes are not being comitted? I've lived in Sweden, and I've traveled to Sweden regularly for the past 10-15 years. I've been to some of the areas where people are afraid to go, these days, and I've discussed the topic of immigration with both Swedish immigrants, native Swedes, and Norwegians living or studying in Sweden. Clearly, I haven't talked to the entire population of Sweden, but I think I have a certain grasp of the general thoughts and impressions of the Swedish people who have experienced or witnessed these things, as a result of living close to the most affected areas. A lot of Swedes don't care about these problems, because it's not something that affects them. It's not a nation-wide issue, but it is undoubtedly something that's increased significantly over the past decade, and it's an issue that particularly concerns Swedes who, for whatever reason, have to live in what has become the most crime-infested areas.

I have a friend who lived in Rosengård, Malmö for over 5 years, and he was eventually forced to move after witnessing cars in his neighbourhood being set on fire for no reason, and his girlfriend, plus several of his female neighbours becoming victims of rape/attempts at rape. It sounds completely ridiculous, but that is the reality for some people living in Sweden. It is possible that all of the people I've talked to were exaggerating or even lying, but I'm inclined to think otherwise. Of course, it would be more convenient if all of it was just fake news and people looking for attention.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the one who seems to have the preconception that I'm just being hysterical, and I should just listen to the inconstestable "facts" and statistics that are shoved down my throat by politicians as a means of damage limitation.

I'll correct you where you are wrong:
I think you're just being hysterical, and you should listen to the very contestable facts and statistics that researchers are offering you for consumption. If politicians keep repeating certain numbers, you are quite smart to double-check those, but if several serious statisticians, and their varying institutes of learning or research happen to agree, maybe your friends cousin's room mates' uncle's milk man back in college from Oslo was wrong, or just an exception?

- It's clearly damage limitation. The topic of the Swedish definition for rape in statistic research, has come up a few times when politicians have been pressured by local or foreign journalists regarding unrest among the Swedish people, following several cases of rape around Sweden. I think it's baffling that, instead of actually explaining or addressing the situation, they keep pointing towards this arbitrary definition, as if that makes up for everything. I can't recall whether or not they actually provided any statistics, I simply find it pathetic that they seem to think repeating the same explanation about a vague definition, is a legitimate and decent enough response when it's a matter that has affected and concerned a lot of Swedish people in recent years - before statistics was even a part of the discussion.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, Swedes who aren't completely dense are already aware that the rates of rape in the country has increased substantially compared to in the past. It's not as if these things just start occurring and slip under the radar of the population.

Listen. I'm not Swedish, I don't live in Sweden. I just know what I read in news papers, scientific studies, research magazines, and what Swedes tell me, but I really think you won't be gaining any insights if you just outright assume that everyone not agreeing with you is being dense.


"DuringTheWar" claims to be a thorough expert on scouring the internet for info on foreign topics, and he ridiculed norway for being a socialist country. I don't assume that anyone not agreeing with me is being dense. I've never seen the northern lights, although it's been said that there's no better place to view it, than in the northern parts of Norway. I live in Norway. Someone once told me that it's one of those things one just has to witness in their lifetime. Yet, I can't be arsed to travel for several hours just to see it. If a foreigner wants to know my opinion on it, I'll tell them what I know, but it wouldn't have made much difference to me if it didn't exist. I'd say I'm pretty dense or indifferent when it comes to the northern lights.

I believe that was very evident before the statistics were released

Unless you can be everywhere, at every time, at once, you really should probably not have been able to see evidence of anything, before statistics were released.

-I stand corrected, but I like to think that, knowing people who live in places that are scattered all over Sweden, and listening to their experiences from living in those places for extended periods of time, is sufficient. But yes, I'm indeed not capable of being everywhere, all at once.

I'm not saying I am 100% certain you are wrong. I'm saying it is probably more logical to believe the statistics corroborated by many different institutes over hearsay. If it turns out that those statistics have indeed been manipulated by crooked politicians, I whole-heartedly promise you that I will apologize to you, and change my opinion on the matter.

-I wouldn't necessarily classify the witholding of controversial statistics as corruption. The leader of the Norwegian statistics bureu was recently fired, or rather, moved to a different job, partly for ordering an employee specifically not to release statistics regarding crime involving immigrants. I already mentioned that I know someone in the Oslo police force who was told by his superiors to do the same thing when he was speaking publically on national television. I don't know the scope of this practice in Oslo, Norway, Scandinavia or the rest of the world, but I think the most logical conclusion for why they do this, is because nazis and far right activists would have a field day with statistics of this nature, that may suggest that immigrants are a problem. In that sense, I completely understand why they may want to not release such info. Still, when something becomes a truly concerning issue, like the many rape incidents in Malmö in recent years, it's blatantly disrespectful to the victims and the families of the victims when public representatives attempt to brush it all off as misleading numbers.

Unique wrote:@freeza let me ask you this in your opinion what is more important the safety of the young girls and women in Europe or the safety of the refugees

Zagadka wrote:It's fascinating how much the conversation regards to this issue has changed over the past 3 years. Very interesting to see "immigrants" debate it with European locals at contrasting viewpoints. Enjoyed reading all the posts

Unique wrote:Well let’s hope these far right party’s can protect the people better than the far left pussies have done. I believe they will tbh.

VivaStPauli wrote:

Unique wrote:Well let’s hope these far right party’s can protect the people better than the far left pussies have done. I believe they will tbh.

What "far left pussies", none of the countries we talked about, neither Scandinavia, nor the UK, nor Germany were ever governed by the far left within the last 30 odd years.

VivaStPauli wrote:But far left parties haven't really been in power, so... Why?
Like, tell me of a European far-left government in the 21st century, and what they did and why it sucked?

BarrileteCosmico wrote:[mod]Let's please get back to the topic at hand. This thread is about the rise of nationalism in Europe, not about immigration from refugees. While the two subjects may be connected this thread should not turn into another refugee thread, we've had many iterations of those and they have all ended up locked for good reason.[/mod]

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Unique even if what you claim is true (and there is a lot of misinformation out there) the far left is not responsible for any of that. It's the centrist governments that would have allowed your alleged crimes.

The only far left party I can think of is the 5 star movement in Italy, and they're in a coalición government with a quasi fascist party.

In fact, as far as I'm concerned, the far left is often as nationalist as the far right.