Re: WC 2018 | Round of 16 | France vs Argentina

by BarrileteCosmico Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:46 pm

congrats to France for a deserved win

F*** Sampaoli for being incompetent

F*** our players for deciding to pick a fight on the 92nd minute rather than try to equalize

F*** AFA for forcing Martino out (I'm sure we would've at least played like a team rather than 11 individualities under him and finished 1st in the group)

by breva Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:10 pm

Cruijf wrote:In what world is Icardi better than Aguero, Higuain, and Dybala?

Dybala plays a different position. So you think Aguero and Higuain, 30 year olds, are better than Icardi. Laughing

by Cruijf Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:18 pm

Higuain and Aguero have been awful for the NT but so has Icardi. And at club level yes they are better. There's a reason Icardi is still playing for Inter and Higuain and Aguero play for top-tier clubs.

by BarrileteCosmico Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:20 pm

Turns out to fire Sampaoli we have to pay him 16m

F**** me

by Doc Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:23 pm

As a footballer, obviously Aguero is more skillful but Icardi should have been on the team. Should even be starting but the powers that be insisted not to pick him. Insisted not play their forwards either. Seriously, I really don't like putting the entire blame on the manager or the FA but both parties got this team so wrong.

by Luca Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:45 pm

If Argentina went out because they couldn't finish chances, then we can speak of Icardi

This was not the case

by titosantill Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:51 pm

they didn't lose because of icardi or the lack of him. this always happens in these types of tournaments, if the coach doesn't bring a player, especially a star player then that player becomes a martyr. and if the team wins without said player that player turns into the "reason why they were not winning before". icardi barely played any qualifiers with them, and if he did, he didn't score nor do anything of note, the coaches, the captains, the squad, knew who they were going with, and whether anyone believes it or not, the groups that matter in the squad signed off on it. icardi could have played and flopped anyway. its the way the cookie crumbles, and this side on paper is good enough ....no, is great enough to have finished first from their group and avoid another heavyweight in the round of 16. icardi call up isn't to blame one bit

by zigra Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:54 pm

But Icardi is just one of the players you can say they should have used but didn't. Dybala was only on the bench for example and don't @me with this "the system doesn't work with both Dybala and Messi" because if one thing hasn't been working it's the "system" (joke to even call it a system) Laughing

by breva Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:00 pm

Cruijf wrote:Higuain and Aguero have been awful for the NT but so has Icardi. And at club level yes they are better. There's a reason Icardi is still playing for Inter and Higuain and Aguero play for top-tier clubs.

Icardi got no playing time on the NT. Icardi is a better player and more important for his club. He can carry the team. And remind me, how Champions Leagues have Juventus or Manchester City won, recently, over the past 10 years for example?

by LeBéninois Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:02 pm

Aregntina demise is not about Icardi or a psecific individual . I mean Dybala spent the whole tournament on the bench ...

No team spirit, no talent, coach who is clueless...

by GRude Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:20 pm

LeBéninois wrote:Aregntina demise is not about Icardi or a psecific individual . I mean Dybala spent the whole tournament on the bench ...

No team spirit, no talent, coach who is clueless...

top 5 squad in the world, easily.

by iftikhar Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:25 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Turns out to fire Sampaoli we have to pay him 16m

F**** me

How long does his contract run???

by BarrileteCosmico Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:57 pm

We didn't go out because we didn't call up Icardi... we went out because we have an ideologue coach intent on playing attacking football without having the players for it. Let's not forget that at one point we played a high line back 3 of Mercado - Otamendi - Tagliafico... with absolutely no preparation for that kind of set up.

The bottom line is that Argentina played like 11 strangers, not a team. And while in attack a stranger can create a moment (or moments) of magic as Di Maria, Kun and Messi all did, in defense you need discipline and teamwork. We didn't have this and it showed.

by messixaviesta Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:45 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:We didn't go out because we didn't call up Icardi... we went out because we have an ideologue coach intent on playing attacking football without having the players for it. Let's not forget that at one point we played a high line back 3 of Mercado - Otamendi - Tagliafico... with absolutely no preparation for that kind of set up.

The bottom line is that Argentina played like 11 strangers, not a team. And while in attack a stranger can create a moment (or moments) of magic as Di Maria, Kun and Messi all did, in defense you need discipline and teamwork. We didn't have this and it showed.

Which is why Argentina's best chance was at the last world cup with the Carlos Bilardo reincarnation Alejandro Sabella. That said I do to some extent appreciate a team for playing on the front foot without having the players to do so especially when some teams having the players are too cowardly. As strong as France was Argentina actually led 2-1 at one point and finished the game 3-4. They dominated the ball most of the times with France content to sit back. Looking at the shambolic state of what happened behind the scenes and that incredible victory against Nigeria I don't think they have done too badly. Messi will probably be criticized as always but he is the only player in the world who could have been man marked all night, had a supposedly bad game and still gotten two assists.

by Robespierre Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:08 pm

Luca wrote:If Argentina went out because they couldn't finish chances, then we can speak of Icardi

This was not the case

I agree

Aegentina went out just because they were not a squad, not even Messi could do something.
They wasn't capable to get the best from Messi, AFA is a disgrace

by Robespierre Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:11 pm

Mbappe was born in France in 1998, we'll know a day that Ronaldo had procreated in France that year sign my words

by Unique Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:30 pm

Robespierre wrote:Mbappe was born in France in 1998, we'll know a day that Ronaldo had procreated in France that year sign my words

but Mbappe is black Laughing

by Myesyats Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:49 pm

It's quite possible that Cristiano conceived Mbappe at age 12 on a school trip to France tbh

by rincon Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:41 am

He meant old Ronaldo, the one that played the same style as Mbappe in his youth.

by Myesyats Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:49 am

Oh, now it makes more sense. Not my fault though, you gotta specify which Ronaldo you're talking about, the real or the fake one.

by breva Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:31 am

rincon wrote:He meant old Ronaldo, the one that played the same style as Mbappe in his youth.

Exactly, he reminds me of Ronaldo before the injuries. Same incredible speed, il fenomeno.

by Robespierre Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:37 am

Myesyats wrote:It's quite possible that Cristiano conceived Mbappe at age 12 on a school trip to France tbh

old Ronaldo , my old Ronaldo (reason because I support Inter ) , that played World Cup in France exactly that year

by Hapless_Hans Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:42 am

Myesyats wrote:Oh, now it makes more sense. Not my fault though, you gotta specify which Ronaldo you're talking about, the real or the fake one.

You don't.

Ronaldo = Ronaldo

The other one is Cristiano, Cronaldo, or depending on your persuasion Fakenaldo aka Kommander.

by FennecFox7 Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:24 am

Unique wrote:
Robespierre wrote:Mbappe was born in France in 1998, we'll know a day that Ronaldo had procreated in France that year sign my words
but Mbappe is black

half algerian.

the scenes in paris if another algerian wins the WC for france Laughing

by Hapless_Hans Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:42 am

Cruijf wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:
Doc wrote:

I assume you think Argentina could have won it with a different manager?!

I think it's ridiculous to say that Argentina could not have possibly won this game no matter how they set up, and that we should credit Sampaoli for "making it close".
That's a s stupid a thing as I've ever heard tbh.

I didn't say credit to Sampaoli, I said credit to Argentina. Big difference.

The 4-3 scoreline is very deceptive tbh, it makes it look like had Argentina just improved by a little bit they would've been able to snatch it. And yeah they would've improved significantly if Sampaoli wasn't a moron. Benching Perez, playing with a CF, etc. all would have improved Argentina.

The problem is that the notion that a little improvement would have been enough is nonsense. As zigra said the only reason the game was close was because 2 once in a lifetime goals (one brilliant one lucky) and a header after the game was already won.

So yeah, there is no other way Argentina could have set up that would end with them winning.

Another coach with another squad and a coherent style of play that the team understood, with enough preparation? Maybe, but even then that's only because Deschamps is awful. With the cards Argentina had there was nothing else they could have done which would have ended with them winning.

And the reason I say credit to Argentina even if most of it was luck was because a lot of the players did show impressive resolve and overall it was definitely their best performance of the tournament. So yes the players deserve credit even if Samp doesn't.

Sorry for the over the top name calling, @Cruijf
I found myself actually rooting for Argentina Laughing

I just think that it is absurd to say a team with the quality of Argentine, including the basically best attacking player of all time, can't realistically be expected to win against France no matter how the coach sets it up.
On the contrary, this is all about how the coach sets it up. Sampaoli did a terrible, terrible job on the whole. He's not the first to struggle to coach Argentine, but he seems to have proven an especially bad choice given his system approach which surely needs extensive and homogenic training if it is to work at all, as well as a work rate hard to conjure up after a long season.
Add to that bizarre team selection, and this is a self-made exit by Argentine, not some inevitable loss against an almighty opponent. France isn't that great a team.

But the way you elaborate it now, I don't have much disagreement.

by Cruijf Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:00 pm

No worries about the name calling, I've been there.

I agree Sampaoli was awful, I would just disagree that Argentina has much quality at all.

Like I said, with a better coach who called up a better squad and had enough time to drill a better system into the team they might have had a chance. What I was referring to in the original post was the lineup/tactics. Given the squad Samp took and the preparation the team had I don't think there's any lineup/tactics he could've used that would've won the game for Argentina. The squad he has is just very weak, particularly the defence. That was always gonna be a hindrance for this team.

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