how you rate messi's national career?

I am no Messi fanboy. If you ask the Barca ans, they would probably call me a Messi hater. I have routinely criticized his performances both for us and for Argentina(on a tactical level). I believe he flopped in the knockouts of WC 2014 and said so recently. I also said that he needs to great NT knockouts performance to cement his legacy.

Reading some of the comments in this thread, I feel compelled to defend him. First of all, some context. Even among the greats, nobody has had multiple legendary NT tournaments.

Maradona flopped at WC82, doesnt have a standout CA and had a decent but nothing great WC 90. Had an outstanding WC86.
Cruyff has just WC 74. Pele had WC58 and WC 70. But despite all the eulogizing, I dont regard WC 70 as some legendary performance. He played for a super team(kind of like Barca today) which was just vastly better than everyone else. Even then, I thought he was just merely good. Nothing great and certainly not anywhere close to a Maradona 86 or Cruyff 74.
Coming to R9, had a good 98, had a decent 2002, and a couple of good Copa's. No legendary tournament.
Zidane had an average 98 and was carried by his teammates to the final. Scored two goals against a dispirited Barzil. The tournament was nothing to write home about for Zidane.
Had a good Euro 2000(though overrated) but flopped in the final. An average and vastly overrated 2006 compounded by a stupid red card in the final(costing his team the match).
I have left a few others but lets concentrate on them for now and compare against Messi.

Messi plays well in the few minutes he got in 2006. Pekerman didnt put him on in the fatal game against Germany. Played well in Copa 2007 but not influential in the final. Still only 19 though. Arrived in irresistible form at WC 2010 in what was probably his physical peak. I thought he played splendidly well despite not putting up numbers. Unfortunately, he was handicapped by the ineptitude of Maradona. How that dimwit became a NT coach will forever remain a mystery. Sabotaged what should have been a great tournament for Messi. With a competent coach, Messi and Argentina would have done much better. Overall good WC.
CA 2011. Knocked out in the quarters. His poorest NT performance imo.
WC 2014. Played atrociously for Barca the previous season. Had a clutch group stage and a good game in the R16. Didnt play well in the remaining games. Overall good WC.
Copa 2015. Arrived in the form of his life. Unfortunately for him, it was a very cynical and brutal tournament and he was offered no protection whatsoever. I thought he played very well, even in the final.

Still ,he had not had that career defining tournament. The legendary knockout performance was missing. Until CA 2016. I thought he was outstanding throughout the tournament. Had a legendary knockout performance. I cant remember a better NT knockout performance in recent memory. Complete domination. Even in the final, he was sensational. Put on a dribbling masterclass against a great Chile team which played very rough. Shimmered with genius throughout and created all their chances and half chances. Won numerous fouls and even drew the foul which led to Diaz getting deservedly sent off. Unfortunately he was screwed over by the ref and Bravo pulling off the save of the century. Also didnt have luck on some of his runs. The lucky break, a lucky bounce etc which leaves you open.

Overall, I dont see how his record is far inferior to those mentioned above. He lacked that legendary knockout performance which he delivered. The others were probably better at the WC so that puts them slightly ahead but I dont think they were that far better for their NT.

Lets compare performance in finals for everyone mentioned above. Pele performed in both finals(in terms of final product) but Brazil were a super team. Overall, I was not blown away by the performance.
Cruyff won the penalty in 74 and created a couple of half chances but struggled to really stamp his mark. Maradona had an assist in 86 but was anonymous otherwise. Flopped in WC 90. R9 flopped in WC 98 but had the fit beforehand. Scored 2 in WC2002 final but it is worth remembering that he missed 2 sitters before scoring 2. Bascially Rivaldo kept serving him up until he scored. Also helped that Kahn made an uncharacteristic howler. Zidane had a great 98 final. Flopped in Euro 2000 final. Flopped in the 2006 final.
Messi flopped in 2007 final(19 though). I thought he actually had a good 2014 final. Probably his best game of the knockouts. Dangerous throughout the first half. Influence waned afterwards.
Very good CA15 final and an outstanding CA16 final. Lets face it. If Iniesta or Zidane or R9 or Maradona put on such a performance against a tough Chile team, we wouldnt hear the end of it. And yet Messi gets no praise and all the criticism.
So even his finals performance stacks up.

His NT record is probably inferior compared to others but it is not vastly inferior as is being portrayed. I have not mentioned about all the great players but just some of the names his NT record is compared against most of the time. I can mention the same for other players like Eusebio, Platini, Baggio, Iniesta etc.

People critcizing Messi for not winning the WC are laughable tbh. Did Cruyff win it ? Zico ? Platini ? Di Stefano ? No. Doesn't make them worse. They were fantastic footballers

Messi is the best player I've ever seen alongside R9 and winning or not winning the WC doesn't change that. He kept amazing me week and week out for 10 straight years and that's more than enough. Is he the greatest ? Probably not. he lacks some intangibles that one is born with and that would take him to the next level... The best ? For sure. His ability is out of this world.

Why do some of you expect him to put Barca-esque goalscoring numbers when he's Argentina's creator? I never understood this mindset that since Messi scored 60 goals per season with Barca, he had to score 15 goals per year with Argentina. He's the one who's creating the chances. Even then, he still became Argentina's top goal-scorer.

Also, a burnt out Messi's 2014 WC is better than some people think. He was their ATTACK. He was involved in every goal, Argentina scored in the WC. The general criticism he got was the decline of his performances in the knockout rounds, but some of you need to realize Argentina started playing a defensive, counter-attacking 4-4-1-1 in the knockout rounds. It wasn't like the group stages where they played an unbalanced 4-3-1-2 that allowed Messi so much more space. As Mourinho said, he sacrificed himself for the betterment of the team (or Mascherano lel). I'm not sure how many top players in history would have agreed to do that. I mean look at the lineup they played in the finals:



Their game plan was to park the bus and make Messi do something on the counter attack. He had no support. If he wasn't the one involved in the play, then nothing was created.

James was the best player of the WC, but they would never have given that award to someone who got knocked out in the quarters. Who else was there? Mascherano? They would never give it to a defensive player. Muller? He scored a hat-trick against Portugal and didn't have much of an impact for the rest of the tournament. Di Maria? LMFAO, pls. He was average in the group stages and had the worst individual performance of all time against Switzerland. Of course, he scored the winning goal, but his general performance was awful. After that, he got injured for the rest of the tournament.

It was between Messi and Robben. Messi made it to the finals, and Robben didn't. Just because Messi didn't have a peak-Messi type of performance doesn't mean he still wasn't arguably the best player at the World Cup.

Back to his international career, He's not done. He's simply tired of being the scapegoat every time Argentina lose. He WILL be back for the 2018 WC. Argentina will clean up their mess, and he'll have one last chance. Perhaps, that chance will be a Hollywood ending which seems him finally win the big one, or maybe it'll be another finals exit, or maybe a quarters exit. Rest assured, he will be back for the 2018 World Cup.

Mole, if you ignore this marketing Copa which is an anomaly since its being hosted only a year after the real Copa, many players have been to consecutive finals.

Most recent being members of the Spanish team. Brazilian team between '97 and 2002, members of France '98 team who've gone on to win Euro. Members of West Germany team who've gone on to win both WC and Euro in the early 70s etc.

Not sure why you are hyping this finals achievement. Argentina were favorites to win both Copa's anyway.

Wrong. Just because a team is expected to win something, doesn't mean it's a cakewalk for them. Just goes to show how easily and how highly we expect, nothing else. And why exactly would we not consider this copa? Hell, every player cared so much for this, did you even see the final? Please, this copa, marketing or no marketing, was every bit as important to everyone as any other copa. I would say even more important, look at Messi as a prime example.

Its not about caring, yes they did care. Its the timing of the tournament I'm talking about which totally devalues the importance of the last Copa. People are talking about Messi making 3 finals when the 3rd final is merely an anomaly because its being hosted only a year after the real Copa so i don't understand people glorifying that achievement. I also mentioned how many teams and likewise members of their respective squads in different era's have made consecutive finals be it EURO or Copa or World Cup. Its not something rare.

Argentina were favorites in both editions. Not saying it would be a cakewalk for them but with their talent, they should've been winning atleast one. Next thing people will say is Messi couldn't win it because his team was competing against the best Chile of all time

What I am saying is that Messi faced a personal setback that I'm sure very few have faced, if not none. Timing matters little in hindsight. Messi played 3 finals, he lost 3 finals, consecutive or not, he doesn't (and I'm sure many other people) care. Were those important as hell to him? Yes. Were those important as hell to other people? Yes. Was there extreme pressure on him? YES. Now tell me how many players have been IN this situation, not the ones who had a "shot" at this scenario.

Oh and just curious, what is the best Chile generation?

good but not great.

I think the main problem why peeps calling mehssi a fraud (myself included) is mainly due to the comparison pissing contests with regard to who is the all time goat. I think mehssi is great. he is a fine player. a system player sure but still a very dangerous player all the same.. Mehssi is a great club player. he also has done reasonably well for himself with the NT. One could argue with an olympic gold medal, mehssi has done argentina good. without the context, mehssi had a great international career.

But then you have incompetents like harmonica claiming that mehssi is the goat of goats. that he was monstrous with the nt. that he did much better than the likes of Zidane, Maradona, Dinho, and Ronaldo.

That is where I draw the line. It is an insult to actual goats who went well and above the call of duty to their nations who broke their own limits in order to bring home the gold and silver Ronaldinho who I strongly admire and Zidane whom I still consider the all time goat. these men are goats. the proof? World cup winners. and both having a strong influence in the triumph, especially that of Zidane where without him, France were nothing to be feared. Euros? checked. World cup winner? checked. Zidane has shown proper leadership and performances to bring home the glory and banter to France and is rightfully deemed a goat. Zidane has claim to say he is at minimum not to be inferior to maradona and in his case, I think Zidane better than Maradona with his Euro win. winning worldwide and continental is to be respected and needs to be shown respect.  And that's just Zidane. Why not Ronaldo who was lethal for Brazil? Ronaldinho with his world cup and Copa America?  both of which mehssi couldnt win to save his life.

an even bigger joke seeing as Mehssi fell short on the mickey mouse anniversary, forget the actual copa america. I know this is harsh but the truth is not always nice. If mehssi is to be considered a goat, then so is CR7. and that thought disgusts me greatly. especially with how both share the need to stink for their nation. which is a shame for mehssi considering this year was his strongest performance for argentina in YEARS but it wasnt enough. 2014 some say mehssi had a good year? that was the most ghostly year i have ever seen from a player who many call the best in world.

When I saw Mehssi play this year's mickey mouse trophy, I asked myself, where the *bleep* was this guy for the past 6 years? this guy shits on whoever was masquerading as him before.

I already know what many of you will think. Mehssi had bad teammates waaah~, Mehssi was held back by shitty tactics waaah~, Mehssi was- I'll stop right here. That was what made Zidane's run in 2006 all the more impressive. he didnt win that year, but you see a man who has won it before and coming back from retirement, drag his nation all the way to the final despite being an old baldy. I dont see a chance in hell that mehssi could do the same at Zidane's age. the quality gap is too great. GOATS like Zidane make the impossible possible. If mehssi had any leadership qualities, he would have his teammates play better than their limit like Zidane did. Like Dinho did, Like Maradona did. and thus is a sad reality which to why many call him a fraud. I say it for fun and giggles, we all know mehssi is one of the best right now if not the best.  Better than CR7 at least though imo, that isnt hard to do.

But ultimately, Mehssi didnt cut it for his nt. without context he is successful. But Mehssi has been considered the best player in the world for quite some time now. since 2009 i think??? he has been the best for 6+ years, His argentina team are not inferiors. Mascherano is the best dm around. Aguero and Higuain for all intents and purposes are lethal based on their stats. its not like Mehssi was born and playing for san marino. Mehssi was playing for Argentina, one of the "top dogs" of world football. in the past 6 years with exception to this year, mehssi has embarrassed himself on the international stage for a long time. for one called the best in the world and being compared to the maradonas and the zidanes, he reminds me of robinho. all hype with no product. Does that sound like a goat to you? i think not. lack of memorable performances is also a red flag. well this year he lived up to it but the years past? delusional.

So I will end it with this: Yes Mehssi has been far from a failure. top goalscorer, went to many finals. many would be satisfied with what he has achieved with argentina. Very successful. But once you add the context that this man is supposed to be the best around, being compared to maradona and pele, being compared to those who have accomplished far greater achievements for their nation... I will repeat. Mehssi is not a failure, he has been good for Argentina. But for the sake of reason, do not ever compare with Maradona or Zidane. Not in the same level and at this rate probably never will be. Those guys will always be above mehssi. Winning for your club and winning for your country are two very different things. Mehssi cryihg after the copa americal anniversary final was over should tell you everything how much of a difference it really is. and if ye cannot understand why he cried. there is no hope for ye who remain delusional. Winning for your nation is indescribable. to fall short after being so close, is truly a crushing feeling.

What many do not understand is that International football is basically a nonviolent form of WAR. To the victor the spoils and the history. the bragging rights and the banter. the ultimate "my dick/breasts are bigger than yours" pissing contest on a continental and global scale. to the loser, only ridicule, mockery, bitterness, crushed hopes and expectations and the pain of losing awaits. it is never a good feeling to be on the losing side. this is what separates the mehssis and cr7s from the Dinho's and Zidanes.

As long as mehssi keeps getting compared to true goats, he will always be called a fraud, a failure, w/e negative you want to call him.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

S wrote:Tell me two things :
A.Did Messi dominate?

B.Did he DESERVE the golden ball?  Was it totally just? Unanimous  choice?  No debate here at all ?

Don't blame people for having high expectations of him when he struts his stuff regularly against much stronger opponents with Barca.


Calling Robben dogshit in the KO's is again a myth when he was by far Holland's best player. Plus he gave probably the best individual performance against the reigning champions. Only fair to consider him among the best players of the tournament.

Reigning champions? but i thought you didn't watch the group stage ?

Robben was fantastic in the group stage i don't deny that, it's this utterly ridiculous myth that he was fantastic in the KOs when he hardly did anything at all.

He didn't really create anything for his team mates, more often than not would dribble into 4 players and lose the ball he wouldn't create anything for himself as shown by Holland's inability to score.

He literally did nothing, that's not hyperbolic at all unlike your claims he was fantastic which is extremely hyperbolic.

I don't think you've seen the World Cup, or at least i hope. Robben was incredible vs Mexico, Holland did nothing until Robben started to destroy that flank.

You also said about that WC that South American teams dominated, while Germany and Holland both destroyed Brasil ... and Holland were equal with Argentina, and Germany was better. Also in the QFs there were more European teams.

fantastic

reminds me of

Even in a still picture, Fabregas looks useless.

Ion Creanga wrote:reminds me of

Let's not get into technicalities

South American teams dominated the group stages. Thats undeniable. Chile knocked out reigning champions, Uruguay knocked out two fairly good European teams. Columbia were impressive in their group.

Both Columbia and Chile were a bit unlucky to bump into a fellow South American teams. So Europe having more teams in the QF's shouldnt be used as an argument. Agree with Mole here.

http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Actualites/Diego-maradona-nous-n-avons-pas-joue-contre-le-chili-nous-on-a-battu-l-allemagne/700899

"Every second that passes makes us greater because we played with cojones at the Azteca Stadium ('86 WC Final).  We didn't play Chile; we beat Germany.  Do you understand what I'm saying?  The difference between one team compared to the other?  I send a kiss to our captain (Messi)."

-Maradona-

Ion Creanga wrote:reminds me of

Iniesta didn't even get the ball there.

talking about surrounded by more than 1 opposition player

some bayern players had to over fouled the walking riquelme in order to stop him

even by pushing his head and tackle his leg in the same time, how cruel

4th argument.

No national career low. Messi's lowest finish is QF in CA11 with a defeat to eventual champions, creating the only Argentinian goal and scoring the first penalty in SO, individually in team of the tournament. Or 5th place in WC10 losing to Germany having no tactics Maradona as a coach, being in Top 10 (Golden Ball shortlist).

National career lows:

Cruyff - Netherlands lost with and won without Cruyff in EURO76 finals
Di Stefano - Failed to qualify with Spain to WC58 with the likes of Gento, Suarez and Kubala
Maradona - Lost 3 games out of 5 in WC82 with defending champions, who won WC78 without him
Pele - WC66 exit in group stage with defending champions, who won WC62 without him
Zidane - WC02 exit in group stage after defeat to Denmark

I'm glad some of us Barca fans can evaluate ARG's messi keeping our blaugrana bias aside.

You can't hold a player to high standards at club level, and then let those standards drop on the Intl stage, not for someone who's touted as the sport's greatest. In every summer tournament, he's either put in an inconsistent showing, or an insipid one like the CA final '15.
Whilst some concerns w.r.t tactics, lack of cohesion, selfishness are valid. Messi, individually, hasn't done much (or enough) to alleviate them. First off, his meek demeanour on the pitch is unbefitting of a captain. Hasn't pushed the issue, either vocally (his AFA rant doesn't count) or footballistically. Hasn't capitalized on his own opportunities on the big stage. His latest call for retirement basically corroborates his state of mind when taking to the pitch in an ARG shirt.
Overall, Messi's NT career has been a disappointment, and he's conceded as much.

Harmonica wrote:4th argument.

No national career low. Messi's lowest finish is QF in CA11 with a defeat to eventual champions, creating the only Argentinian goal and scoring the first penalty in SO, individually in team of the tournament. Or 5th place in WC10 losing to Germany having no tactics Maradona as a coach, being in Top 10 (Golden Ball shortlist).

National career lows:

Cruyff - Netherlands lost with and won without Cruyff in EURO76 finals
Di Stefano - Failed to qualify with Spain to WC58 with the likes of Gento, Suarez and Kubala
Maradona - Lost 3 games out of 5 in WC82 with defending champions, who won WC78 without him
Pele - WC66 exit in group stage with defending champions, who won WC62 without him
Zidane - WC02 exit in group stage after defeat to Denmark

Zidane didn't play in 02 expect for the last game when he was injured

Valkyrja wrote:

fantastic

The video of the play. Pretty much everything was Messi vs 3, 4, 5 or even 6 players. What kind of offence is that? pic.twitter.com/yXMMYZNEMP

— migeru (@migerucb) 29. kesäkuuta 2016

Great example how bad Argentinas attack was and how much Messi was fighting against, provides ball to Aguero vs 5 players and Aguero fluffs the shot, when Mercado was completely open in other side because Messi was team marked, the other option being trying to through ball for Messi. No one in the history of football has been as marked as Messi, nevermind in the Copa final.

I wonder what Harmonica thinks of platini's performance in 1984 and how it holds up to Messi's in WC 2014 or the last Copas .