how you rate messi's national career?

You can bet whatever you want, Messi wasn't the best player in 2014 and he didn't deserve the golden ball.

Di Maria and Mascherano were probably as much if not more influential to Argentina reaching the final. Them reaching the final was mainly built on how solid they were in defense not Messi dominating or carrying them as it has been described around here.

Giving him the golden ball was a farce tbh.

Di Maria more important than Messi

S wrote:Di Maria and Mascherano were probably as much if not more influential to Argentina reaching the final. Them reaching the final was mainly built in how solid they were in defense not Messi dominating or carrying them as it has been described around here.

Giving him the golden ball was a farce tbh.

Exactly. They were fantastic defensively and Mascherano was the player of the tournament imo for Argentina. What a tournament he had playing DM.

sportsczy wrote:Good, nothing great. Messi hasn't made Argentina play any better than before he came. They have been performing at the same level since Maradonna retired.

I must have missed all the WC finals Argentina were inbetween Maradona and Messi and the grand total of one Copa America final they were in too.

Once again you are talking out of your ass because you are basing his career on a ridiculous expectations you have for him to win everything instead of like a normal human being.

Just while we are here lets talk about Maradona as it's the only Argentine worth mentioning tbh.....

Ok he won a WC which is great outside of that? zero Copa America finals and one other WC finals loss which obviously Messi also has.

Yet i'm supposed to believe this garbage that Messi has had an average international career but Maradona's was GOAT?

Think about what you are typing here All of you talking with absolute nonsense

S wrote:Di Maria and Mascherano were probably as much if not more influential to Argentina reaching the final. Them reaching the final was mainly built on  how solid they were in defense not Messi dominating or carrying them as it has been described around here.

Giving him the golden ball was a farce tbh.

I remember vividly how everyone was saying during that tournament how Di Maria was crap ( not to mention he was injured for most of the KOs anyway ) and now he was better than Messi?

Give me a *bleep* break Whatever supports your agenda though right.

Mascerano would be in vacation if Messi didnt took him to the knockout rounds. Now group stages are considered easy because Messi performed there

Di Maria's 2014 is the most overrated season in recent memory tbh.

Kebab wrote:Mascerano would be in vacation if Messi didnt took him to the knockout rounds. Now group stages are considered easy because Messi performed there

because they played against Iran, Nigeria and Bosnia

Mascherano was fantastic let's not get that twisted in any way, shape or form. But if you think their attack doesn't completely fall apart without Messi you are completely and utterly delusional.

They probably don't even beat Switzerland or Belgium tbh.

Valkyrja wrote:

Kebab wrote:Mascerano would be in vacation if Messi didnt took him to the knockout rounds. Now group stages are considered easy because Messi performed there

because they played against Iran, Nigeria and Bosnia

If Iran was easy team then Argentina would have more than 1 shot at goal in 90 minutes

I dint watch the group stages that much. I watched the KO's and i thought he was fantastic. Messi was playing like he was having a early morning walk against both Holland and Germany. Barely any influence on the game. Not to mention a botched one on one against Neuer.

Objectively speaking, in no order, Hames, Robben and Neuer were the best players of the tournament imo.

This is my problem....

Robben was dogshit in the KOs, he literally did nothing outside of diving for a penalty against Mexico. He did *bleep* all against Costa Rica, he did *bleep* all against Argentina and outside of the dive he did *bleep* all against Mexico.

Yet i'm supposed to believe he was outstanding and Messi winning the Golden Ball was a farce. GTFO with that nonsense.

It comes back once again to expectations if Robben performed like Messi it would be considered a great tournament but apparently these expectations are skewing us to believe that he was crap and him winning was a farce.

None of you are capable of analysing something without considering the expectations which is the issue, to be clear i don't think he should have won it but he had a much bigger case than *bleep* Robben did.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

The Demon of Carthage wrote:He didn't play well at all in 2014. I don't believe he has a case there either. I remember many people were shocked he got the golden ball and there were many players who performed better than him.

I bet you are one of those people who think Robben was fantastic when he did *bleep* all in the KOs though.

Why because he did not have the stats? He was Netherland's best player in all their knockout games.

Did fck all, dogshit gtfo with that hyperbolic nonsense.

World Cup Career

Performance Index (importance in success, win %*importance %, max 1.00)

0.65 Messi
0.62 G.Müller
0.60 Schillaci
0.59 Eusebio
0.56 Villa
0.55 Romario
0.53 Robben
0.52 Cruyff
0.51 Pele
0.46 Baggio
0.46 Rossi
0.45 Sneijder
0.45 T.Müller
0.43 Ronaldo
0.43 Forlan
0.40 Batistuta
0.40 Suker
0.40 Maradona
0.37 Zico
0.37 Jairzinho
0.36 Lato
0.35 Zidane
0.32 Klose
0.31 Deyna
0.29 Ardiles
0.28 Stoichkov
0.27 P.Falcao
0.25 Kempes
0.25 Dirceu
0.17 C.Ronaldo
0.17 Charlton

Longevity Index (longevity of importance in success, Performance Index * (matches/ Klose matches), max 1.00)

0.41 Messi
0.35 Maradona
0.34 Ronaldo
0.34 G.Müller
0.33 Robben
0.32 Sneijder
0.32 Klose
0.31 Baggio
0.30 Lato
0.30 Pele
0.28 Villa
0.27 Rossi
0.24 Jairzinho
0.24 T.Müller
0.22 Zico
0.20 Batistuta
0.19 Kempes
0.18 Romario
0.18 Forlan
0.18 Zidane
0.18 Schillaci
0.17 Deyna
0.15 Cruyff
0.15 Eusebio
0.13 Ardiles
0.13 Suker
0.13 Dirceu
0.12 Stoichkov
0.10 Charlton
0.09 C.Ronaldo
0.08 P.Falcao

Matches (Won - Drawn - Lost)

Pele 14 (12 - 1 - 1) = 86% win
P.Falcao 7 (6 - 0 - 1) = 86% win
Schillaci 7 (6 - 0 - 1) = 86% win
T.Müller 13 (11 - 1 - 1) = 85% win
G.Müller 13 (11 - 0 - 2) = 85% win
Ronaldo 19 (16 - 0 - 3) = 84% win
Eusebio 6 (5 - 0 - 1) = 83% win
Messi 15 (12 - 1 - 2) = 80% win
Robben 15 (12 - 0 - 3) = 80% win
Romario 8 (6 - 2 - 0) = 75% win
Cruyff 7 (5 - 1 - 1) = 71% win
Sneijder 17 (12 - 2 - 3) = 71% win
Deyna 13 (9 - 1 - 3) = 69% win
Klose 24 (16 - 6 - 3) = 67% win
Maradona 21 (14 - 2 - 5) = 67% win
Zidane 12 (8 - 3 - 1) = 67% win
Villa 12 (8 - 1 - 3) = 67% win
Zico 14 (9 - 3 - 2) = 64% win
Jairzinho 16 (10 - 2 - 4) = 63% win
Suker 8 (5 - 0 - 3) = 63% win
Lato 20 (12 - 4 - 4) = 60% win
Batistuta 12 (7 - 1 - 4) = 58% win
Rossi 14 (8 - 4 - 2) = 57% win
Charlton 14 (8 - 2 - 4) = 57% win
Baggio 16 (9 - 3 - 4) = 56% win
Ardiles 11 (6 - 1 - 4) = 54% win
Dirceu 12 (6 - 3 - 3) = 50% win
Forlan 10 (5 - 1 - 4) = 50% win
C.Ronaldo 13 (6 - 3 - 4) = 46% win
Kempes 18 (8 - 4 - 6) = 44% win
Stoichkov 10 (4 - 1 - 5) = 40% win

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

Forlan 12 (6 (1p) + 1 + 5) out of 14 team goals = 86% (+1 SO goal)
Villa 10 (9 (2p) + 1 + 0) out of 12 team goals = 83%
Baggio 14 (9 (2p) + 2 + 3) out of 17 team goals = 82% (+1 SO miss and goal)
Messi 18 (5 + 6 + 7) out of 22 team goals = 82% (+1 SO goal)
Rossi 17 (9 + 3 + 5) out of 21 team goals = 81%
G.Müller 22 (14 (1p) + 6 + 2) out of 30 team goals = 73%
Cruyff 11 (4 + 4 + 3) out of 15 team goals = 73%
Romario 8 (5 + 3 + 0) out of 11 team goals = 73% (+1 SO goal)
Eusebio 12 (9 (4p) + 2 + 1) out of 17 team goals = 71%
Schillaci 7 (6 (1p) + 1 + 0) out of 10 team goals = 70%
Stoichkov 7 (6 (3p) + 1 + 0) out of 10 team goals = 70%
Batistuta 13 (10 (4p) + 2 + 1) out of 19 team goals = 68%
Robben 18 (6 + 5 + 7) out of 27 team goals = 67% (+2 SO goals)
Sneijder 16 (6 + 3 + 7) out of 25 team goals = 64% (+1 SO miss and goal)
Suker 7 (6 (1p) + 0 + 1) out of 11 team goals = 64%
Lato 20 (10 + 8 + 2) out of 33 team goals = 61%
Pele 22 (12 + 8 + 2) out of 37 team goals = 59%
Maradona 19 (8 + 8 + 3) out of 32 team goals = 59% (+1 SO miss and goal)
Jairzinho 17 (9 + 3 + 5) out of 29 team goals = 59%
Zico 11 (5 (1p) + 5 + 1) out of 19 team goals = 58% (+1 SO goal)
Kempes 17 (6 + 6 + 5) out of 30 team goals = 57%
Ardiles 8 (1 + 2 + 5) out of 15 team goals = 53%
T.Müller 18 (10 (1p) + 6 + 2) out of 34 team goals = 53%
Zidane 9 (5 (2p) + 2 + 2) out of 17 team goals = 53% (+1 SO goal)
Ronaldo 21 (15 (1p) + 6 + 0) out of 41 team goals = 51% (+1 SO goal)
Dirceu 6 (3 + 1 + 2) out of 12 team goals = 50%
Klose 20 (16 + 3 + 1) out of 42 team goals = 48%
Deyna 10 (4 (1p) + 1 + 5) out of 22 team goals = 45%
C.Ronaldo 6 (3 (1p) + 2 + 1) out of 16 team goals = 38% (+1 SO goal)
P.Falcao 5 (3 + 1 + 1) out of 16 team goals = 31 %
Charlton 6 (4 + 0 + 2) out of 20 team goals = 30%

Tell me two things :
A.Did Messi dominate?

B.Did he DESERVE the golden ball? Was it totally just? Unanimous choice? No debate here at all ?

Don't blame people for having high expectations of him when he struts his stuff regularly against much stronger opponents with Barca.


Calling Robben dogshit in the KO's is again a myth when he was by far Holland's best player. Plus he gave probably the best individual performance against the reigning champions. Only fair to consider him among the best players of the tournament.

Was just about to ask why there are no random Harmonica lists yet

Please mention the things he did, he didn't impact any of the games in anyway.

Hyperbolic nonsense? you know what is hyperbolic nonsense this idea that he had some amazing KOs when he did literally nothing and Messi was somehow worse when he did more.

If i said this about James then you'd have a point but not Robben.

Both Robben and Messi were good in the ko stages, both didn't deserve the golden ball tbh.

Kroos was probably the best player in the WC

S wrote:Tell me two things :
A.Did Messi dominate?

B.Did he DESERVE the golden ball? Was it totally just? Unanimous choice? No debate here at all ?

Don't blame people for having high expectations of him when he struts his stuff regularly against much stronger opponents with Barca.


Calling Robben dogshit in the KO's is again a myth when he was by far Holland's best player. Plus he gave probably the best individual performance against the reigning champions. Only fair to consider him among the best players of the tournament.

Reigning champions? but i thought you didn't watch the group stage ?

Robben was fantastic in the group stage i don't deny that, it's this utterly ridiculous myth that he was fantastic in the KOs when he hardly did anything at all.

He didn't really create anything for his team mates, more often than not would dribble into 4 players and lose the ball he wouldn't create anything for himself as shown by Holland's inability to score.

He literally did nothing, that's not hyperbolic at all unlike your claims he was fantastic which is extremely hyperbolic.

S wrote:Tell me two things :
A.Did Messi dominate?

B.Did he DESERVE the golden ball?  Was it totally just? Unanimous  choice?  No debate here at all ?

Don't blame people for having high expectations of him when he struts his stuff regularly against much stronger opponents with Barca.


Calling Robben dogshit in the KO's is again a myth when he was by far Holland's best player. Plus he gave probably the best individual performance against the reigning champions. Only fair to consider him among the best players of the tournament.

a: Messi WC14 is the best ever World Cup performance considering overall play, importance and statistics, as good as Maradona WC86. http://www.goallegacy.net/t36526-most-controversial-world-cup-golden-ball-s-since-1966

b: All World Cup Golden balls could have given for somebody else depending criteria. Messi WC14 is the 3 most dominant Golden Ball considering 4 most important statistics, goals, chances created, players beaten and tackles. Only Maradona WC86 and Kempes WC78 were more dominant.

Best performance's based on 4 of the most important statistic. Statistics provided by OPTA.

Goals - How much player provided attacking quality
Chances Created - How much player provided playmaking quality
Dribbles - How much player provided advancing play
Tackling - How much player provided defending quality

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC14

4 - 23 - 46 - 9 - Messi
5 - 17 - 12 - 7 - Müller
3 - 17 - 34 - 2 - Robben
6 - 11 - 15 - 6 - James

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC10

5 - 17 - 7 - 0 - Forlan
5 - 11 - 9 - 4 - Sneijder
5 - 13 - 11 - 1 - Villa
0 - 30 - 10 - 9 - Xavi
0 - 16 - 34 - 7 - Messi

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC06

3 - 12 - 15 - 4 - Zidane
5 - 15 - 8 - 8 - Klose
3 - 12 - 20 - 1 - Henry
1 - 24 - 11 - 17 - Pirlo

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC02

x - x - x - x - Kahn
8 - 13 - 11 - 4 - Ronaldo
5 - 13 - 14 - 7 - Rivaldo
1 - 24 - 7 - 17 - Schneider

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC98

4 - 7 - 16 - 3 - Ronaldo
6 - 9 - 15 - 6 - Suker
3 - 18 - 17 - 6 - Rivaldo
2 - 19 - 20 - 10 - De Boer

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC94

5 - 8 - 25 - 1 - Romario
5 - 12 - 14 - 10 - Baggio
6 - 6 - 14 - 7 - Stoichkov
3 - 18 - 17 - 11 - Brolin

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC90

6 - 8 - 9 - 2 - Schillaci
4 - 21 - 22 - 22 - Matthaus
3 - 24 - 3 - 17 - Brehme

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC86

5 - 27 - 53 - 11 - Maradona
5 - 18 - 9 - 3 - Careca
6 - 3 - 2 - 1 - Lineker

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC82

6 - 14 - 10 - 2 - Rossi
4 - 18 - 13 - 5 - Boniek
3 - 8 - 10 - 15 - Falcao
3 - 24 - 17 - 5 - Giresse

No stats for Rummenigge.

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC78

6 - 18 - 43 - 5 - Kempes
5 - 15 - 19 - 8 - Rensenbrink
2 - 19 - 10 - 24 - Haan

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC74

3 - 36 - 33 - 9 - Cruyff
3 - 30 - 23 - 17 - Deyna
7 - 13 - 8 - 14 - Lato

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC70

4 - 28 - 16 - 9 - Pele
7 - 13 - 47 - 4 - Jairzinho
10 - 14 - 4 - 0 - Gerd Müller

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC66

3 - 18 - 15 - 15 - Charlton
9 - 10 - 35 - 10 - Eusebio
4 - 9 - 22 - 17 - Beckenbauer

The least controversial World Cup Golden Ball, based on most important statistics:

1. Maradona 86
2. Kempes 78
3. Messi 14
4. Cruyff 74
5. Romario 94
6. Rossi 82
7. Forlan 10
8. Pele 70
9. Schillaci 90
10. Charlton 66
11. Ronaldo 98
12. Zidane 06
13. Kahn 02

Note, not all players are sourced.

Robben in the ko stages is overrated, I agree witht that. I even remember thinking he should do more. He was still good though, just nowhere near as good as he should have been. Same goes for Messi (who was likely better than Robben but still underwhelming). Both were just good.

I said i dint watch all of the group stage. I watched Spain's matches, Italy's matches but missed the Argentina games.

Robben was Holland's only threat against Mexico, Costa Rica and Argentina. Only player trying to cause problems for the opposition defense. He doesn't necessarily have to score or assist to consider that he had a great game. I would also argue that he played much better than Messi in the same semi game.

Nobody is saying Messi played bad but i just feel they were players who had more influence and impact in games. By Messi's standards, he was poor against both Holland and Argentina.

You still havent answered me if you think Messi winning golden ball was a no debate/no contest.

I mean poor against Germany in the final sorry*

Goals - Chances Created - Dribbles - Tackles - WC14
4 - 23 - 46 - 9 - Messi

quarterfinals onwards
0 - 5 - 22 - 4