how you rate messi's national career?

farfan wrote:I wonder what Harmonica thinks of platini's performance in 1984 and how it holds up to Messi's in WC 2014 or the last Copas .

platini didn't have to deal with "the corrupt argentine fa" refdrid, and florentino perez paying his teammate to purposely miss chances therefore denying him his place in the sun?

Valkyrja wrote:

Harmonica wrote:4th argument.

No national career low. Messi's lowest finish is QF in CA11 with a defeat to eventual champions, creating the only Argentinian goal and scoring the first penalty in SO, individually in team of the tournament. Or 5th place in WC10 losing to Germany having no tactics Maradona as a coach, being in Top 10 (Golden Ball shortlist).

National career lows:

Cruyff - Netherlands lost with and won without Cruyff in EURO76 finals
Di Stefano - Failed to qualify with Spain to WC58 with the likes of Gento, Suarez and Kubala
Maradona - Lost 3 games out of 5 in WC82 with defending champions, who won WC78 without him
Pele - WC66 exit in group stage with defending champions, who won WC62 without him
Zidane - WC02 exit in group stage after defeat to Denmark

Zidane didn't play in 02 expect for the last game when he was injured

Zidane played the crucial game against Denmark and lost. Being injured and playing is individual responsibility.

farfan wrote:I  wonder what Harmonica thinks of platini's  performance in 1984 and how it holds up to Messi's  in WC 2014 or the last Copas .

It's one of the best tournament performances ever, without knowing full statistics it's probably on par with Messi CA15 or CA16. It's still below Maradona WC86 and Messi WC14, because it's lesser tournament.


Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

CA15 Messi (arg) 10 (1 + 3 + 6) out of 10 team goals = 100% importance (+2 SO goals), runner-up, MVP
Euro84 Platini (fra) 11 (9 + 1 + 1) out of 14 team goals = 79% importance, champion, ToT
CA16 Messi (arg) 11 (5 + 4 + 2) out of 18 team goals = 61% importance (+1 SO miss), runner-up, ToT
CA07 Messi (arg) 8 (2 + 3 + 3) out of 16 team goals = 50% importance, runner-up, Top 3

5th argument.

Messi WC14 is the best World Cup performance with Maradona WC86, since they started recording all the matches in World Cup (1966). More: http://www.goallegacy.net/t36526p125-most-controversial-world-cup-golden-ball-s-since-1966

World Cup performance index, considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as golden, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

1.
Maradona 86
Messi 14
3.
Kempes 78
4.
Jairzinho 70
5.
Robben 14
Cruyff 74
7.
Forlan 10
8.
Romario 94
9.
Eusebio 66
Pele 70
Rossi 82
12.
G.Müller 70
Schillaci 90
Suker 98
15.
Ronaldo 02
Charlton 66
17.
Ronaldo 98
18.
Zidane 06

Where is Oliver Kahn?

Oh, and what about Thomas Müller in 2014?

Seems i need to formulate my own index and put Messi's WC14 performance right at the bottom in 19th or 20th place (:

titosantill wrote:it's a case of expectations, from argentine fans. they want a world cup, not a copa america, not a confederations cup, they've got a bunch of those. and when you have someone who is definitely legit; not ortega, not aimar, not cavenaghi, not saviola, not riquelme nor tevez; then you can't blame their fans for the expectations

you also take into account that spain and germany have really largely been the only threat to argentina, in terms of personnel, over the last 6 years, then one can't blame them for expecting more....its not like all these national squads are littered with top name talents these days

his national team career has been good. but i understand the critics, when you give out all that praise, you can't now revert to "he's only human", "the corrupt fa", "higuain caused it" etc....at least nobody has gone the "chile and germany are two of the greatest teams we have ever seen" route. a good national career, but critics do have a valid point.....

I already proved it in the other thread. There is no lesser talent today among the top teams than there was back in the mighty old past.
This German team is an elite team stacked to the brim with WC players. Certainly one of their best in history. And light years better than the bunch of scrubs that reached the WC final in 2002. The WC that you think was a good one.
The Spain team during Messi's time is the best in their history and one of the most dominant NT's of all time. And you are really underrating Chile. They are an outstanding well coached team who have won back to back Copa's . Also played well at the WC beating Brazil.
Point being, the back in them days , every NT was filled with Pele's and were elite is a load of rubbish. If anything, the average level has gone up and there are much less scrub NT's nowadays.

sportsczy wrote:http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Actualites/Diego-maradona-nous-n-avons-pas-joue-contre-le-chili-nous-on-a-battu-l-allemagne/700899

"Every second that passes makes us greater because we played with cojones at the Azteca Stadium ('86 WC Final).  We didn't play Chile; we beat Germany.  Do you understand what I'm saying?  The difference between one team compared to the other?  I send a kiss to our captain (Messi)."

-Maradona-

Yep, the difference is that the Chile team is better than that German team. And they are far better organized and close down space better than the German team. I have seen the 86 final and Maradona got more space to operate than Messi.

he never met spain in an int'l tournament. i gave him a pass for germany....but i'm not sure anyone can be taken seriously with regards to chile being some goat level type team. greece was well organized in 04 as well....whether anyone likes it or not, argentina had the players, the personnel, and messi- the guy we have all hailed as magnificent to beat chile twice. come off it with the "any team that faces my favorite player is the greatest".

even at the world cup, he wasn't anything magnificent after iran, nigeria and algeria. let me guess, switzerland, belgium, netherlands are also among the best teams we have ever seen. like it or not germany,spain and argentina (from 2012 to present) have been the only elite national teams between 08 till now

a poor italy side in 2010 (their fans will say that's their worst side ever), a brazil side that has been slumping since all their old guards left in 06 (losing like that at home 7-1 in a world cup for brazil is downright pathetic), a poor french side in euro 08, worse in wc 10, and are now getting their act together, a portugal side relying on nani and an 18 yr old for flair, a dutch side that after wesley rvp and robben have peaked can't do squat...by wc 14 robben was practically the main star. i'm not even going to get into england

cameroon have forgotten how to produce talent, senegal disappeared after their 02 stars faded out, ivory coast with drogba and em flopped on the int'l scene, belgium has some popular epl players but that's where it stops...and even their best player isn't regarded as reliable, and had an absolutely atrocious season. besides alexis and vidal, chile doesn't exactly have world beaters. frankly, many of these teams just have too few top stars, its ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

How is Argentina any better than Chile? They don't have one creative midfielder

It's one thing to go down the list of national teams and say they're all rubbish, but then who is good? Considering Spain has long since peaked and declined, are you really going to tell me its only Germany and Argentina? You have to accept the lower quality of NT football and judge accordingly. Relatively speaking, Chile is a very good team and certainly up there with Germany and Argentina.

Chile up there with Germany and Argentina on talent?

Championship player Gary Medel is their best defender. They have good squad but no where near the squad Argentina or Germany have.

alexjanosik wrote:

sportsczy wrote:http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Actualites/Diego-maradona-nous-n-avons-pas-joue-contre-le-chili-nous-on-a-battu-l-allemagne/700899

"Every second that passes makes us greater because we played with cojones at the Azteca Stadium ('86 WC Final).  We didn't play Chile; we beat Germany.  Do you understand what I'm saying?  The difference between one team compared to the other?  I send a kiss to our captain (Messi)."

-Maradona-

Yep, the difference is that the Chile team is better than that German team. And they are far better organized and close down space better than the German team. I have seen the 86 final and Maradona got more space to operate than Messi.

You can't be serious.  1986 Germany:
GK     Harald Schumacher
SW 17 Ditmar Jakobs
CB 4 Karlheinz Förster
CB 2 Hans-Peter Briegel
RWB 14 Thomas Berthold
LWB 3 Andreas Brehme
CM 6 Norbert Eder
CM 8 Lothar Matthäus
AM 10 Felix Magath
CF 11 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
CF 19 Klaus Allofs

Cruijf wrote:How is Argentina any better than Chile? They don't have one creative midfielder

It's one thing to go down the list of national teams and say they're all rubbish, but then who is good? Considering Spain has long since peaked and declined, are you really going to tell me its only Germany and Argentina? You have to accept the lower quality of NT football and judge accordingly. Relatively speaking, Chile is a very good team and certainly up there with Germany and Argentina.

how many top teams play with a "creative midfielder" these days? unless when you say "creative" you're including cmf in that conversation cos i'm thinking attacking midfielder. two argentina has messi, from a creative standpoint that's more than anything chile has to offer, way way more. unless we're going to say diaz, aranguiz and vidal are more creative linchpins than messi. Banega is even better than all 3 with regards creating chances, though vidal is a better overall midfielder.

i stand by my statement. it sounds cynical me saying a lot of teams are rubbish. i don't want to go that far. i'd say, a lot of teams are experiencing their down times within the same time period, and i mentioned the list. in the last 8 years chile's been nowhere near spain, germany nor argentina. they beat argentina twice, but if they had a game tomorrow, most people won't bet on chile. hell, before they beat them in the finals last year and espn ran the numbers and most picked argentina....probably a few chile supporters and messi "haters" went the chilean route.

only vidal and claudio bravo would make the argentine team. only vidal might, might make the german team, and even then i doubt it. sanchez might make the present spanish team, although i personally would include vidal, but many people rate busquets higher. chile got their tactics right. greece got their tactics right in 04, doesn't mean they were some elite team.

sportsczy wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

sportsczy wrote:http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Actualites/Diego-maradona-nous-n-avons-pas-joue-contre-le-chili-nous-on-a-battu-l-allemagne/700899

"Every second that passes makes us greater because we played with cojones at the Azteca Stadium ('86 WC Final).  We didn't play Chile; we beat Germany.  Do you understand what I'm saying?  The difference between one team compared to the other?  I send a kiss to our captain (Messi)."

-Maradona-

Yep, the difference is that the Chile team is better than that German team. And they are far better organized and close down space better than the German team. I have seen the 86 final and Maradona got more space to operate than Messi.

You can't be serious.  1986 Germany:
GK     Harald Schumacher
SW 17 Ditmar Jakobs
CB 4 Karlheinz Förster
CB 2 Hans-Peter Briegel
RWB 14 Thomas Berthold
LWB 3 Andreas Brehme
CM 6 Norbert Eder
CM 8 Lothar Matthäus
AM 10 Felix Magath
CF 11 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
CF 19 Klaus Allofs

Going by names, Atletico Madrid should be nowhere near the top when the best teams in the world are mentioned.
And yet, they are a top 3 club on the planet, capable of defeating anyone on a consistent basis.
Watch the 86 German team and tell me they are better than this Chile team. Chile are simply better and would beat the German team majority of the time.
In the final, Maradona had more space than Messi against Chile in either final.

So finally someone did it.

Finally someone is implying that Messi couldn't win an international trophy because he was competing with GOAT Chile Seems like the arguments of blaming Higuain, Argentina's coach being inept and them having a corrupt FA dint suffice.

Argentina aren't any better than Chile now apparently. If Messi didnt send his spot kick to Cayman Islands, the argument of course would be different . These fanboys

The mere reason why all these present teams are overhyped like they are now in the past few posts is to make Messi look good. No other reason

titosantill wrote:

Cruijf wrote:How is Argentina any better than Chile? They don't have one creative midfielder

It's one thing to go down the list of national teams and say they're all rubbish, but then who is good? Considering Spain has long since peaked and declined, are you really going to tell me its only Germany and Argentina? You have to accept the lower quality of NT football and judge accordingly. Relatively speaking, Chile is a very good team and certainly up there with Germany and Argentina.

how many top teams play with a "creative midfielder" these days? unless when you say "creative" you're including cmf in that conversation cos i'm thinking attacking midfielder. two argentina has messi, from a creative standpoint that's more than anything chile has to offer, way way more. unless we're going to say diaz, aranguiz and vidal are more creative linchpins than messi. Banega is even better than all 3 with regards creating chances, though vidal is a better overall midfielder.

i stand by my statement. it sounds cynical me saying a lot of teams are rubbish. i don't want to go that far. i'd say, a lot of teams are experiencing their down times within the same time period, and i mentioned the list. in the last 8 years chile's been nowhere near spain, germany nor argentina. they beat argentina twice, but if they had a game tomorrow, most people won't bet on chile. hell, before they beat them in the finals last year and espn ran the numbers and most picked argentina....probably a few chile supporters and messi "haters" went the chilean route.

only vidal and claudio bravo would make the argentine team. only vidal might, might make the german team, and even then i doubt it. sanchez might make the present spanish team, although i personally would include vidal, but many people rate busquets higher. chile got their tactics right. greece got their tactics right in 04, doesn't mean they were some elite team.

Lets take the mighty old past. How about the 2002 WC, back when the mighty Zizou and R9 and all tose mythical players were playing.
garbage Spain team. Garbage German team. Garbage French team who couldnt get out of the group.
garbage Argentine team who couldnt even get out of the group. Bunch of chokers they were.
Brazil and Italy were the only strong teams. Rest were a bunch of pathetic scrubs.
The mighty Dutch didnt even make it. And yet we are supposed to believe the revisionist nonsense that that was some amazingly strong era with 32 elite teams each comprising Pele's and Beckenbauer's.
Load of nonsense. This era is far stronger and the top teams are also better.

S wrote:So finally someone did it.

Finally someone is implying that Messi couldn't win an international trophy because he was competing with GOAT Chile Seems like the arguments of blaming Higuain, Argentina's coach being inept and them having a corrupt FA dint suffice.

Argentina aren't any better than Chile now apparently. If Messi didnt send his spot kick to Cayman Islands, the argument of course would be different . These fanboys

The mere reason why all these present teams are overhyped like they are now in the past few posts is to make Messi look good. No other reason

Played extremely well at the WC and won back to back Copa's. They are an elite side. And Messi has played one good final and one outstanding final against them. Argentina were the better team and had the majority of chances. Not Messi's fault the ref screwed Argentina and Bravo pulled off a GOAT save.

i chose an 8 year period. i said from 08 to now, only germany and spain have really been the only elite sides. from 98 to 06, all those teams you mentioned at the so called "crap" 02 tournament were decent to good teams. argentina in 02, got knocked out in a group of death- a win a draw a loss. that same argentina qualified top of the south american group iirc, had a solid team in 98, losing a tough game against another top dutch side, boasted crespo, veron, zanetti, cambiasso, batigol on their teams

spain has just had its golden generation, but to act like the ones who came before them were scrubs is ignorant. spain from 98 to 06, over an 8 year period boasted fantastic players not just from real and barcelona, but valencia, deportivo and sociedad. they flopped in 98 (cos of zubi who was past it), but raul, luis enrique, pep, mendieta, carnizares, hierro, de pedro, valeron....these guys are NOT scrubs. anyone who says otherwise is ignorant

france didn't have an elite team? this is why i wonder if you watched any of these teams. you say brazil and italy were the only elite teams, france bested italy in 98 and 00, france won a world cup, euro and a confederations cup before flopping in 02, then returned to the final in 06. france before flopping in 02 had henry (the top scorer in epl that year), trezeguet (the top scorer in serie a that year), cisse (the top scorer in france that year), and they're scrubs? is this guy really serious?

netherlands in the late 90s and early 00s had an array of talent that present dutch fans would wish to have now. so much talent, at some point even makaay couldn't make the team at some point, ruud seedorf davids bergkamp van hooijdonk are scrubs? no disrespect but for you to compare chile to a team that had matthaus, then i don't know what to say....

nobody compared any era to pele and beckenbauer, but to look at national teams right now, and pretend that we are witnessing some amazing level of talent is extremely ignorant. over the last 8 years, many teams have produced their absolute worst in terms of personnel. look at clubs, juve, madrid, barca, bayern and psg are the only ones people expect anything from (throw atleti in there as some sort of surprise horse). and the epl as even their fans will agree have had things go a little slow for them. now chile is considered an elite side? apart from vidal, nobody important will be interested in signing any chilean player....their second best player couldn't even hold unto a position at messi's barcelona and was sold...soon someone will say "well eduardo vargaz is a better cf than henry".

To answer your question, yes, Alex is very serious about what he just wrote.

If this Chile is on par with Germany and Argentina , the two best NT's in international football right now, then i wouldnt hesitate to call possibly this era possibly the worst era in NT football.

And with all due respect, they're a good team anyway.

They are, and this is.

What I get from reading this thread: The quality of today's national teams are at an all time high. Past NTs were overrated. Past greats were overrated. Messi is GOATing. Argentina aren't all that. "Stop glorifying the past and start praising Messi who's GOATing even during his retirement"

Oh hey there, Cruiyff. Never thought I'd find you here

Chile had what? R16 exit against Brazil and they are elite side??

So basically performed in copa america where there is basically Argentina who are chokers.

Chile is the A.Madrid of national teams. They are beating Argentina like A.Madrid beats Barcelona and R.Madrid.

Argentina played better game against Germany than they did against Chile. they looked like a team. but against Chile they couldnt make 3 passes in a row. Because Chile plays dirty football, they have fast short players, their pressing is fast and brutal. In a S.American competition with such brutal referees Chile would beat any team in the world

Some people laugh and call it bs because of low IQ. If you dont believe in opinions then watch and analyse matches of mentioned players. Eye test is the best option. As Alexjanosik mentioned Maradona had more space in 86 final than Messi did against Chile (so called weak team). Its either football is improved over years or Chile is really a top team.

Or Chile is not a top team as showed by Brazil knocking them out in R16.

Basically have an Argentine to beat in copa who are chokers. It will also help if Messi can take his penalty like Ronaldo does for Portugal.