Anti-Immigration protests in Europe

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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:53 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:I honestly don't get how you can be so cavalier about this Fußball.
Clearly the islamic invasion of Europe and the Western world is well underway. Those arabs are coming at us with all they have.
For years, make that decades, now they have been sending their soldiers, airplanes, bombing our capitals, toppling our goverments, occupying our territory with their armies, enabling corrupt puppet rulers, stealing our resources.
FFS we are pawns in their game of world domination, about time we finally stand up and fight back.
We've been silent and tolerant for far too long, this is about survival of our way of life!


That was bloody brilliant.

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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:57 pm

McLewis wrote:I guess it's a tough topic for me to wrap my head around completely as the US was founded by immigrants with the express intent of taking in and welcoming immigrants. I think countries like Germany want to do the same and have a good track record of doing such in the past post-war. This just appears to be something that has been simmering in the background for quite some time and the recent unrest in Syria and elsewhere has exacerbated the situation to the levels we're seeing now.


TBH Germany has been a country of immigrants for 200 odd years now, starting when Prussia accepted Huguenot refugees from France, notwithstanding that until the 1870s, moving from Munich to Frankfurt made you a de facto immigrant.

I also completely, and one hundred percent, disagree with RWO that this is a legitimate reaction to an actually existing problem. These protests are a purely populist movement by hatemongers who want to leverage the average Joe's uninformed fear of the unknown to push their own weirdly skewed political agenda.

How weird this all is, is perfectly illustrated by one simple fact:
The more immigrants you have in a given part of Germany, the less people there express right-wing views. So the only Germans who appear to have anything against immigrants are those, who live in parts of the country, where they never, ever, meet immigrants.

At least now the main stream is taking the protests seriously, and counter-demonstrations are growing in size, and will probably eclipse the entire retarded movement soon. Germany just isn't a Tea Party country.

And I just hope those embarrassing little shits will go back down the drain again, and soon.
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Post by DuringTheWar Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:12 pm

VivaStPauli wrote: leverage the average Joe's uninformed fear of the unknown to push their own weirdly sdkewed political agenda. .


Yes that can happen. What also can happen in my country for example is government lying to the public and introducing mass immigration behind their backs. No weirdly skewed political agenda here I must say!

VivaStPauli wrote:
How weird this all is, is perfectly illustrated by one simple fact:
The more immigrants you have in a given part of Germany, the less people there express right-wing views. So the only Germans who appear to have anything against immigrants are those, who live in parts of the country, where they never, ever, meet immigrants.

.


I wonder what other factors are involved in that, it would be nice to analyse before conclusions, that's the normal process. On a completely unrelated note a lot of schools are egalitarian factories, churning out little idealists by the truckload eco smile
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:17 pm

Lying to the public is wrong in 99% of cases. TBH if we had an honest debate on the topic, more people would be favoring immigration.
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Post by DuringTheWar Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:33 pm

Your point is this is the 1% where it's right?
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:47 pm

No, I left room for that 1% where you don't tell everyone in the football stadium there's a bomb threat, and evacuate everyone calmly under false pretenses to avoid panic.

There should be open debate for immigration, otherwise both sides tend to be asinine. The left wing tends to be against background checks for immigrants because that might be a right wing tool for racial profiling, even though you should, of course, check everyone who might later be able to apply for citizenship to at least find out if they have a record in their country of origin.

On the other hands you have right-wing lunatics foaming at the mouth, yelling something about building walls and fences to keep people out who don't even want to come in...
It's one of those topics where there seldom is a proper debate.
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Post by elm_baraja_shaman Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:01 pm

i gotta agree with rwo here (from personal experiences)

these middle-eastern and asian (India and Pakistan, yes even them)
have some marriage practices that need to change, i virtually know Indian and Pakistani friends who dated non-Indians/non-Pakistanis and were forced to break -up with them for fear of family, some later pretended they were content in settling for one of "the boys they were "forced" to talk to"

i mean some of them were born right here in the United States and aside from their race that'd sell them out you wouldn't know they were un-American

these cultures pretend to be all liberal on the surface but underneath they are perfectors a drilling these marriage fear core in their kids......

ironically i found out its quite relaxed when it comes to their males though, when an Indian guy/paki guy wants to end up with say a white girl, after a few beat downs, he is let go to do as he pleases and its fine with the family (example Dr Sanjay Gupta)

but when its a girl, you bet the family will either threaten to kick her out of the family or eliminate her for doing what she deems is best for her.......


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Post by DuringTheWar Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:20 pm

If the politicians think the public don't know what's good for themselves, at this point they lie to them, because the "representatives" think they know better, that's representative democracy, well it seems to be.

I don't know how many people interact with other cultures on an intimate level. Living in a multicultural area doesn't mean you really know a thing about the others cultures really, except on the surface. Personally I know some peoples are more harsh and callous, and others gentler, with different sensibilities, it's not always a good thing to mix them up. And I know that's not the loveliest world view, but there it is. Saying that I don't make any distinction between white/black/aisan who have adopted the same culture, but I think some cultures are.... well id prefer to be part of some more than others
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Post by rwo power Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:18 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:I also completely, and one hundred percent, disagree with RWO that this is a legitimate reaction to an actually existing problem.
There is a difference between "legitimate" (that is "legitim", "lawful") and logical (in the sense of "nachvollziehbar"). I just wanted to point out what happens, not that I approve.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not sure whether you live in an area where you actually get into contact with many people with immigrant roots. In my area there is a container settlement with Tamil asylum seeking people only two streets away, and I'm afraid, the way some of these guys treat women is an absolute no-go. (You probably never had to endure lewd comments by male idiots, and unfortunately there were a disproportionate amount of guys among the people living there that seemed to consider women as fair game.)

BTW, in the house where I'm living, there are also a Brazilian family, a Greek and a Portuguese family, all of which are perfectly fine as they integrate nicely. (The only drawback with the Portuguese family is that the girl is an avid CR7 fan, which of course is a no-go, too.)
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:55 pm

My only pet racism is against the Spanish, and I don't mean by large and in whole, it's just the Erasmus students in Heidelberg getting on my nerves.

No, I lived in England for a while, where I was the foreigner, admittedly I did not stand out, so this might be fake empathy on my part, but I have lived in the cheaper parts of Mannheim for 5 years, which is much like what you know from the deep West where you live. Working class, and tons of foreigners. I bloody loved it.

I know that the faux understanding of leftist ideologues isn't helping, when they put themselves on some kind of pedestal and give Ben Afflecesque speeches about how criticizing female genital mutilation and the suppression of women under the Sharia is tentamount to racist oppression of all muslims.

So I really get who you're poking at, I just think this debate needs to be rational.
Immigrants as a whole are, economically, and socially, a positive force. Those that are not, need to be evaluated and observed closely. The values of western democracies are not up for debate, even if we ourselves are probably the biggest threat to them.

After all, the biggest threat to liberty, equality, and justice for all are probably right-wingers screaming about how brown people will ruin liberty, equality, and justice.
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Post by Peccadillo Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:50 pm

ahh the paradox of tolerance.
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Post by VivaStPauli Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:00 pm

Peccadillo wrote:ahh the paradox of tolerance.


That's mostly an imaginary problem. Integrate, but do not compromise the laws and values of society. Paradox averted.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:24 am

VivaStPauli wrote:My only pet racism is against the Spanish, and I don't mean by large and in whole, it's just the Erasmus students in Heidelberg getting on my nerves
Interesting. I have a Spanish friend that always complains about German tourists and erasmus students bringing their hard-drinking ways to Spain Laughing
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Post by Peccadillo Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:47 am

elm_baraja_shaman wrote:i gotta agree with rwo here (from personal experiences)

these middle-eastern and asian (India and Pakistan, yes even them)
have some marriage practices that need to change, i virtually know Indian and Pakistani friends who dated non-Indians/non-Pakistanis and were forced to break -up with them for fear of family, some later pretended they were content in settling for one of "the boys they were "forced" to talk to"

i mean some of them were born right here in the United States and aside from their race that'd sell them out you wouldn't know they were un-American

these cultures pretend to be all liberal on the surface but underneath they are perfectors a drilling these marriage fear core in their kids......

ironically i found out its quite relaxed when it comes to their males though, when an Indian guy/paki guy wants to end up with say a white girl, after a few beat downs, he is let go to do as he pleases and its fine with the family (example Dr Sanjay Gupta)

but when its a girl, you bet the family will either threaten to kick her out of the family or eliminate her for doing what she deems is best for her.......




rwo. this is a racist post that you really should have addressed.
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Post by Nishankly Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:29 am

I wouldn't say that's racist Pecca, its true that Women have been discriminated against in this country since a while.

What surprises me is the level of education of these families of Elm's friends, I'd say Elm has been very unlucky that he's found friends that represent a very backward thought that plagued India in the 80s-90s.

The situation is still there and but its not as bad, and certainly not that bad that these guys are the ones that represent my country abroad. We are better than this.

But obviously the thing about India is the difference, being poor and you're in a hell hole constantly fighting for you life and committing fraud to stay alive or earn a day's meal, While the above average are educated but retain some traditional ( mostly positive but can be negative read Elm's friends) values.
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Post by Peccadillo Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:02 am

he said "middle eastern and asian".. he has sweepingly generalised more than half of the worlds population.

If he was actually just talking about pakistan and a few surrounding central asian/middle-eastern countries, which is still a sweeping generalisation, then it is still false. I know plenty of pakistanis for example and none of them adhere to, nor agree with forced marriage.

I'm not pretending its a problem, what you must remember is that despite the alarming numbers that do fall victim, there is always a larger proportion who have nothing to do with it.

If you take a sample of any under-educated, lower socio-demographic of any region and you will find statistics which in no way represent the wider community.

Arranged marriage is common enough in some cultures, yes, forced marriage - no.
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Post by Nishankly Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:20 pm

The thing about the Sub Continent is that the under educated are more than the educated. Educated is a strong word here, Passing 10th grade does not mean you are educated in this case.

And yes Elm had no business including the middle east in this, They have their own traditions. But i really couldn't be arsed correcting generalization having faced Proxima in the deleted thread this morning.

The last line was harsh and again he did not think before writing but he was talking about honor killing the most backward tradition found only in below poverty line villages cant believe it made its way to America so that Elm could witness it lol.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:33 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:My only pet racism is against the Spanish, and I don't mean by large and in whole, it's just the Erasmus students in Heidelberg getting on my nerves
Interesting. I have a Spanish friend that always complains about German tourists and erasmus students bringing their hard-drinking ways to Spain Laughing


That's why I called it a pet racism and explicitly stated it's only towards the Erasmus students - young people in a foreign country, pretty sure that whatever embarrassment they suffer will be a few hundred miles away in 6 months time... Why not behave like a dick?
People will notice you're behaving shittily once there's enough of your kind. The mediterranean beaches have suffered from drunk English and fat Germans for decades, now they can have their revenge by yelling in closed rooms in Germany.
I'm fully aware it's irrational, but since the economy in Spain nearly collapsed there's a lot of Spanish students in Germany, trying to learn the language.
I had a Spanish flat mate for two years, and I still am friendly with her even after she moved out, so I obviously suck at this xenophobia thing, but this whole anecdote serves to prove a point:
people often handle being confronted with things they're not used to not all that well.

Eastern Germans rarely see a non-white face outside of Berlin, so they have difficulty coping. There are no socio-economic realities to be found beneath the surface. It's just idiocy. I'm an idiot for putting young people being loud on the Spanish, and the anti-immigration protesters are idiots for seeing minor cultural differences as a problem.
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Post by Peccadillo Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:41 pm

+1

tbf I think some of these protesters appeared at least like they were trying to be specific in saying they are opposed to salafism/wahhabism.

Their main banner was in fact hooligans against salafism.. although it is unfair to say that salafism is inherently violent - it is fair to say that it is narrowing down the source of violent extremism.

Don't get me wrong I'm sure the protest was littered with bigoted morons - but I think there was a considerable contingent of people who were simply opposed to backwards and extreme ideologies within Islam - which I would not deny is a valid concern.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:24 pm

Those were actually two distinct movements, the first was less than a thousand people in Cologne, and they were "Hooligans Against Salafism" or whatever, the current mass-protests in Dresden are held by Pegida, which stands for "patriotische Europäer gegen Islamisierung des Abendlandes", roughly meaning "patriotic Europeans against the islamization of the Occident", they are far more, but also far less thuggish. They're mostly just weird.

They've so far managed to scoop up everyone with a grudge against "The Establishment", which is also the reason why the movement will implode soon, once they discover they don't have anything in common.

One protester was interviewed and they said they marched "for the trees", whatever that meant.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:34 pm

The issue with this is that the extreme right parties are becoming very popular... in France too.  Stuff like this will do nothing but increase their popularity.

As it stands, if there were elections today, my money is that Le Pen would become president of France.  That's how extreme it's gotten... and i believed this even before the terrorist attack.

Very bad news for everyone.
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Post by ProXima Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:29 pm

It would be very good information for all Frenchmen. France needs purification and not only because of these attacks. This country and nation is a showcase of European culture developed through the ages. And great France has to end as islamized country?

Right-wing (even radical, but I don't support it) is much better for Europe right now than stupid modern cultural marxism presented by "antifascist" left side.

Very happy of anti-imigration protests in Germany. It's pleasure to see many thousands of people who know right way to their sense of security.

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Post by Guest Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:44 pm

ProXima wrote:It would be very good information for all Frenchmen. France needs purification and not only because of these attacks. This country and nation is a showcase of European culture developed through the ages. And great France has to end as islamized country?

Right-wing (even radical, but I don't support it) is much better for Europe right now than stupid modern cultural marxism presented by "antifascist" left side.

Very happy of anti-imigration protests in Germany. It's pleasure to see many thousands of people who know right way to their sense of security.


Modern France, as we know it, as always had an Islamic element to it based on their excursions in northern Africa. There will never be a France, as we know it, without Islam in some form or fashion.

We should be trying to assimilate people, not purge, as you say. Purging does nothing to solve anything, and as someone in Poland you should know this better than anybody given a certain 2 people trying to do the same to your homeland last century.

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Post by ProXima Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:18 pm

Betty La Fea wrote:
Modern France, as we know it, as always had an Islamic element to it based on their excursions in northern Africa. There will never be a France, as we know it, without Islam in some form or fashion.

I know this has gone too far. But imigration policy should be very sharpened, especially in France but not only of course. That's why I support FN, this should be the way to get back true identity of Europe for other countries.

Betty La Fea wrote:We should be trying to assimilate people, not purge, as you say. Purging does nothing to solve anything, and as someone in Poland you should know this better than anybody given a certain 2 people trying to do the same to your homeland last century.


I didn't mean killing or something like this. So first, abolition of social benefits should be much better and peaceful resolution for a reduction islamization in Europe. Hope, they wouldn't start killing in the name of social benefits.

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Post by Guest Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:23 pm

ProXima wrote:
Betty La Fea wrote:
Modern France, as we know it, as always had an Islamic element to it based on their excursions in northern Africa. There will never be a France, as we know it, without Islam in some form or fashion.

I know this has gone too far. But imigration policy should be very sharpened, especially in France but not only of course. That's why I support FN, this should be the way to get back true identity of Europe for other countries.

Betty La Fea wrote:We should be trying to assimilate people, not purge, as you say. Purging does nothing to solve anything, and as someone in Poland you should know this better than anybody given a certain 2 people trying to do the same to your homeland last century.


I didn't mean killing or something like this. So first, abolition of social benefits should be much better and peaceful resolution for a reduction islamization in Europe. Hope, they wouldn't start killing in the name of social benefits.


I don't see why the old man/woman In Lyon, or any other city, has to give up the benefits he/she has paid for his entire life to solve the immigration crisis. Social benefits are there to protect the most vulnerable of our society. Any reduction in them would hurt the natives of the land more than any other immigrant, who could just pack up and move elsewhere with little ties to the land.

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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:30 pm

ProXima wrote:It would be very good information for all Frenchmen. France needs purification and not only because of these attacks. This country and nation is a showcase of European culture developed through the ages. And great France has to end as islamized country?

Right-wing (even radical, but I don't support it) is much better for Europe right now than stupid modern cultural marxism presented by "antifascist" left side.

Very happy of anti-imigration protests in Germany. It's pleasure to see many thousands of people who know right way to their sense of security.


You, sir, are a fine example of everything that is wrong with, and scares me about, Europe. Well done.

Also, what is islamization? So many people speak of it, but I haven't heard of what it is really supposed to be.

Is it just the influx of muslim people? Because that should be fine as long as they obey the law of the land.
Is it the takeover of European countries by some sinister group of Islamists who are going to establish sharia law in Europe? Because that's not even remotely happening anywhere.
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