Immigration Thread- What's your ideal society ?

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Post by DeletedUser#1 Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:49 pm

So, This topic has been doing the round in the ISIS thread, but I believe it deserves its own thread. Let's have an honest discussion and hear each other' ideas.

Background:
I am 25 year old from Persian parents, though my mother' side ancestry from 3 generations back is from Siberia. I was born in Iran, before moving to Canada over 10 years ago. So I, myself, have been an immigrant for half my life. Now that we've got that out of the way...let's have the discussion.

I've lived (not visited), LIVED (means for at least 6 months), in 5 different countries. Iran, Denmark, Poland, Canada, and USA.

As you can see, the countries vary greatly when it comes to immigration policy and being homogenous. The more homogenous the population of the country, the more united and ONE I feel the population be.

In my ideal society, for every country in the world...I believe the society WILL function better being 85-90% homogenous + 10-15% immigration....and maintaining that ratio should be the prime concern of the gov't.

What it means is that....I want Japan to be dominated by ethnic Japanese, Iran dominated by ethnic Persians, Sweden dominated by ethnic Swedes, Egypt dominated by ethnic Egyptians, Angola dominated by ethnic Angolans and etc.

Is it racist? I don't think so. Because I want the same platform for people of ALL races and ALL nations regardless of their location, history, and background

I've seen a world vision from my far-left leaning family members and friends of a world where there is no borders, there is open movement everywhere, and everyone lives everywhere and everyone is mixed up. There is a central government and the population is "One", the human race.
To me, that world has ZERO diversity, and zero culture, zero togetherness and would be a shocking disaster.  

I think too much multiculturalism and immigration actually HURTS universal diversity. If we are to protect the beautiful diversity of people, cultures, races, and etc....then my plan is the answer. If everywhere is diverse, then nowhere is diverse.

So....do you agree with my ideal societal cultural demographics ? What is your ideal society when talking demographics and population. Let's have a civilized discussion

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Post by Nishankly Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:11 am

Aren't we already passed this phase? Immigration is good enough throughout the world. Its how much it should be at the very least.

Refugees are not equal to Immigration. Each one of them will be sent back the moment Syria becomes normal again.

I agree with your %'s, That's a good enough number.
Multiculturalism is a wrong word used here, Diversity suits the issue. Major cultures of every country are inherent and 95% of the population regardless of ethnicity would follow the same cultures followed in the country.

Also i very much doubt, more than 2 countries currently exceed the % you state Sepp. What you say about %'s is exactly the situation everywhere if not lesser.

Let's not forget immigration has been a direct effect of colonialism. Gabon, Tunisia, Algeria, Morroco have French in their official languages even though they are 99% Islamic countries because French colonized them and allowed movement, Valid for all the countries apparently facing diversity problems. No wonder the French team is full of mixed French players. This is just one example.
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Post by Warrior Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:54 am

Nowadays more then ever in the history of the world, the "multicultural interaction" is forced instead of being spontaneous. Modern crisis lead many people to live in foreign countries while most of them would have stayed home otherwise.

Let's face it, most people have a problem with muslims and not with all immigrants. Most refugees are muslims and the islamic culture tends to be invasive and kinda lacks humility towards other way of thinking. Or at least, this is how they are portrayed by the influencal medias. This creates a circle of insecurity and distrust in the societies who welcome a lot of immigrants.

On a personal view i don't have a problem with Islam in itself, nor with muslims. People can live the way they want to. But, like OP said, i think that LESS cultural mix is better. Not all people are meant to go along, we don't live in a born-again hippie world after all.
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Post by Guest Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:32 am

If everywhere is diverse, that means humans are becoming better because genetic diversity builds strength.

That said my ideal society is inclusive. I like people mixing socially because it allows for the easy exchange of ideas. When I got to middle school, and experienced my first diverse school, I was shocked at my classmates. We all considered ourselves Christian, but there was a church for every race. The white kids had their churches, the black kids had theirs, the Latino kids had theirs, and I went to a Japanese church. I always wondered if we all believed in the same thing, why did we all have to worship in different places? Thats how kids think. They have to be taught that we are not all equal, they have to be taught the superficial differences separate us.Diversity gets rid of that.

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Post by Nishankly Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:52 am

Warrior wrote:Nowadays more then ever in the history of the world, the "multicultural interaction" is forced instead of being spontaneous. Modern crisis lead many people to live in foreign countries while most of them would have stayed home otherwise.


What do you mean by multicultural interaction being forced and modern crisis?

Europe is built on wealth accumulated from colonization dating back to the 1400s. Interaction with other ethnicities has been ever present. Globalization is an obvious effect of it. "Countries" have interdependent on each from the start of time for the exchange of value or goods, Its the only way we have progressed from the start of mankind.
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Post by Warrior Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:44 am

I find it hard to use the right words to express my opinion in English when not talking about easy subjects like football Thumbs up

Spontaneous would be the kind of "multicultural interaction" that you describe in your post. Every single word of it: the commercial motive (trades) and i'll add the curiosity factor (traveling).

North America and Europe are dealing with a massive flow of immigrants because of the modern crisis such as civil wars and low economy. No need to give specific examples i suppose ? This is what i meant by "forced interaction". Diasporas become bigger every year and the natives feel like they are losing a part of their identity.

Social globalization is seen as a failure and if you don't believe it, look at who is the new US president. Look at who wants to leave EU. Anti-immigrant politicians become more and more popular in many countries and on top of that, they have good media coverage. This is what i meant by forced interaction, in 2016 you have the impression that people only tolerate each other, at best.
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Post by Guest Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:57 am

Warrior wrote:I find it hard to use the right words to express my opinion in English when not talking about easy subjects like football Thumbs up

Spontaneous would be the kind of "multicultural interaction" that you describe in your post. Every single word of it: the commercial motive (trades) and i'll add the curiosity factor (traveling).

North America and Europe are dealing with a massive flow of immigrants because of the modern crisis such as civil wars and low economy. No need to give specific examples i suppose ? This is what i meant by "forced interaction". Diasporas become bigger every year and the natives feel like they are losing a part of their identity.

Social globalization is seen as a failure and if you don't believe it, look at who is the new US president. Look at who wants to leave EU. Anti-immigrant politicians become more and more popular in many countries and on top of that, they have good media coverage. This is what i meant by forced interaction, in 2016 you have the impression that people only tolerate each other, at best.


Immigration to North America has actually slowed. Less people are coming over from Latin America, and we pretty much don't accept refugees.

The immigration problem is solely Europe's at this point.

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Post by Warrior Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:43 am

North America is not only USA. In Canada we accept refugees, not as much as Europe but a lot of them. A part of the population has a problem with that and i can see it becoming a major concern in the future. I saw it from my owns eyes, multiculturalism becoming a controversial topic while 2 years ago (before ISIS and refugees) 99% of the people here was fine with immigrants. Nowadays there is more intolerance and prejudice... and i repeat it once again i think the way the media is depicting the whole thing has a lot to do with it.

Immigration slowed in USA ? Even if it turns out to be true, there is still a lot of intercultural problems in your country.
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Post by Nishankly Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:00 am

IMMIGRATION IS NOT THE SAME AS REFUGEES.

Anti-Immigration politicians are popular due to lots of reasons which are politically justified, Ill give you 2 reasons one which is and one which isn't,

1. Rich and educated people would mostly love to work in multicultural environments across the world. The lower strata feel they that their jobs are taken by the people who are more qualified and richer but not from the same country or the very poor immigrants are exploited because hiring indigenous people works out expensive. For example, An American should have the first right to being a Gardener in America rather than an immigrant. An immigrant would be hired because most of them are poor and will take up any job to settle.

2. Because Xenophobia and Racism are pretty much prevalent, Its just nowadays the people towards whom these terms are usually employed are as empowered and powerful as anyone hence we've seen a drop and people remained quite. Trump, Le Pen, Hollande all of these politicians are immigrant stricter but they are attract/will attract a large chunk of voters from the aforementioned bracket.

-------

The mistakes the Western Countries have made are huge and it's amazing how they let that happen. I went to England 2 years ago and I saw numerous Indians driving Taxi's, Working at shops and even begging wtf. How can you allow immigrants into your country that don't know basic English or have enough money to survive. Now I'm an Indian tourist in England, I'm going to matches, pubs, Restaurants, Staying in Bed and Breakfasts while ordering fish and chips and asking for amounts of salt that seem alien to them and people are telling me that my English is very good for an Indian. A majority of medium to lower class people don't realize immigrants do not represent an entire country even though they are the ones that choose to go abroad. They are probably the poorest and the most helpless of people you'll find if you don't meet them at upper tier jobs.

How on earth can someone grant them a work visa is beyond me, And that's enough for making the local population unhappy because they are doing low paying jobs for even lesser money and not assimilating at all because they can't.
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Post by Warrior Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:49 am

Anti-immigration politicians are popular because the speech they have is what the average population wants to hear.

There is no place for racism and we all have the duty to help each other but it leads to cultural clashes and i have no damn clue about how to solve this. My point is and was from the start: in an era where immigration and refugeeism (or whatever the term) is at the absolute peak, many facts lead me to the conclusion that people are not meant to be all blended together in the same territory.  Every nation needs its own land for the sake of its own prosperity without being closed to foreigners. That would be in an ideal world and i agree with OP.
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Post by Nishankly Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:56 am

I did not deny that, I agree with the OP. The ideal scenario you talk about is present right now. France has 90% ethnic Frenchs, 10% immigrants out of which 6% are acquisition based. England has around 88%. Germany has 91.5% Germans, Rest 10% Immigrants.

Ya'll are losing your shit only because of the refugees.
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Post by Warrior Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:10 am

my ideal would be about 99% natives with everybody at peace in their own land. the 1% remaining being travelers and workers doing business abroad Laughing
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Post by Nishankly Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:24 am

Warrior wrote:my ideal would be about 99% natives with everybody at peace in their own land. the 1% remaining being travelers and workers doing business abroad Laughing


Hmm, I could troll you a hell lot with the natives word you've mentioned for a bunch of countries but lets leave it at that lulz

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Post by rwo power Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:14 am

Sorry, I'm a bit busy and can't write a good reply atm (please bear with me until after the XMas celebrations with my parents & rest of family), but I wanted to add an interesting report on the perception of certain things, among them immigration, to read in the meantime: http://perils.ipsos.com/

You might want to take the quiz first before you look at the results as it is very interesting.
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Post by Guest Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:31 pm

Warrior wrote:North America is not only USA. In Canada we accept refugees, not as much as Europe but a lot of them. A part of the population has a problem with that and i can see it becoming a major concern in the future. I saw it from my owns eyes, multiculturalism becoming a controversial topic while 2 years ago (before ISIS and refugees) 99% of the people here was fine with immigrants. Nowadays there is more intolerance and prejudice... and i repeat it once again i think the way the media is depicting the whole thing has a lot to do with it.

Immigration slowed in USA ? Even if it turns out to be true, there is still a lot of intercultural problems in your country.


Canada's immigration has remained stable too from what I read. You cant flood a place separated by an ocean from refugees, and by a much more successful nation from poor latin Americans in the US.

Yeah our immigration has slowed in recent times. Obama has been sending people back in larger numbers than any president before him, and there are simply no jobs here.

What intercultural problems exist in USA? We are the melting pot where everybody comes over, and joins the gumbo of society.

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Post by Adit Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:13 pm

Minority persecution begins when economic hardship starts. It's no wonder that this minority phobia in both Europe and U.S started after their economy became stagnant and people started losing jobs.

Nobody cares about minorities during prosperity. When the shit hits the fan everyone looks for a scapegoat. Most obvious anger relocation center is Government but sometimes politicians will smartly divert the hate towards the people who are a bit different than mainstream population. Same shit we saw against Jews , how they are all in very powerful position etc etc propaganda. People like to point towards a entity for their hardship and what better candidate than minorites and new immigrants?
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Post by McLewis Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:18 pm

I think there's a blending of many different facets here: culture, heritage, nationalism, and race.

What makes a Danish person Danish? A Canadian person Canadian? An American person an American? What defines who is what? Who is responsible for defining who is what?

As someone born in the United States and having lived here all my life, I still find myself questioning what makes any of us Americans, beyond being born here. The people who live next me are Coptic Christians from Egypt. They immigrated here the right way. They dress like people I've known all my life,and while they tend to prefer their food from their native country, I've also seen them at public events eating burgers and hot dogs. They voted in the recent elections and I've seen them out and about during the summer attending all types of local events, including celebrating our countries independence. In addition to their native language, they speak perfect English and even a bit of Spanish (which surprises me). To me, these neighbors are Americans so why does it matter that they were born somewhere else then made a decision to come here? The large majority of people who immigrate to this country are exactly like these folks. They respect American laws, observe American holidays and they a honor the Americans who came before them.

If these folks aren't as American as I am, given that I've lived here my whole life, then I guess I'm not as American as I thought either.

I will never understand the fear of multiple cultures coming together in larger numbers. Such fear is just as irrational now as it was thousands of years ago when violence was used to try and stop it.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:47 pm

See, this is the kind of logic that I personally disagree with (respectfully of course). You begin by saying that you're an immigrant yourself, but then later you bring forth several arguments to oppose immigration and diversity. You may not realize it yet, but you're contradicting yourself.

If we were to follow your logic, someone like you wouldn't exist in your "ideal society". You'd be asked to leave.

You say that only 10-15% of the country's population should be from immigration. Ok, who gets to decide who should be among those 10-15%? What makes you think you're more worthy of being among that percentage than, say, another Persian who's currently living in Iran and planning to make the exact same thing you did and move where you are? If we were to apply your rules, shouldn't we apply them for everybody, including yourself, or should we make you the exception and slam the door shut behind you? And if so, why?
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Post by futbol_bill Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:02 pm

Does he realize that the vast majority of Canadians and Americans are immigrants or descendants of Immigrants?
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Post by Unique Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:29 pm

i realy want to post in this thread but im on my last 25% so im out of here. Thumbs up
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Post by Nishankly Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:26 am

Unique wrote:i realy want to post in this thread but im on my last 25% so im out of here. Thumbs up


I would really like to know Unique, Considering the OP has asked for an opinion, You should just state your bracket and move on.

But I really enjoy Britishers specially having problems with immigrations and diversity, It's so Ironic I never fail to laugh out loudly. Laughing
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Post by Winter is Coming Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:27 am

Unique wrote:i realy want to post in this thread but im on my last 25% so im out of here. Thumbs up

Immigration Thread- What's your ideal society ?  HB1BboB
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Post by Katy Perry Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:40 am

What does exactly makes someone native?
I was born and raised in Italy from  immigrant parents, but I feel like I'm italian. I have some extenuating like the fact that my dad has italian origins and I have an italian surname and people wouldn't know my parents are immigrant if I didn't tell them, and the fact that both my parents didn't really teach me much about their homeland's traditions except language (basic) and religion (abandoned at the age of 12), maybe because they came in Italy when they were very young. But the main reason is because I've literally lived all my life and completely blended with italian people, italian culture. Embraced it if you will.

So would I be considered an italian? If not because my parents aren't actually italian, then my children would not be considered italian too because of me not being italian and so on. When is one considered native? And why? If my descendents of 100+years are not considered italian because I'm not, why are today's italian with 100+years foreign ancestors considered italian?
What's the algorithm to determine it in your opinion?

I do agree with you tho, that if the immigration is massive, like one half of the emigrating country's population and 1/3 of the receiving country's population/more than the 15% you said, it would be very confusing and problematic for both parties and unsustainable, but that's a very unlikely scenario and won't happen. Just like your utopic vision of one nation/one population.

I personally feel like immigrants can become part of the native, they can enrich and bring diversity and not subtract it.

Actually the main issue with multiculturalism is multiculturalism itself. As in two cultures of the same environment completely distanciating themselves and unwilling to cooperate. That's a toxic situation and bound to generate latent friction and hatred.
Interculturalism on the other hand is what I feel should be happening. As in mutual respect and acceptance and blending from both parties.
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Post by Warrior Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:36 am

Nishankly wrote:
Unique wrote:i realy want to post in this thread but im on my last 25% so im out of here. Thumbs up


I would really like to know Unique, Considering the OP has asked for an opinion, You should just state your bracket and move on.

But I really enjoy Britishers specially having problems with immigrations and diversity, It's so Ironic I never fail to laugh out loudly. Laughing




Mate i dislike your condescending tone sooooooooooo frkn much :-(
Your opinion is not more valuable than Unique's or mine. Actually, a lot of obvious facts tend to prove that immigration is causing cultural clashes in the welcoming countries. You live in India and therefore you don't even experience this situation.

Kind of disappointed by the general cynicism i saw in this thread. Stop living in your fairy tale world. Most have only stick to little details in my posts instead of understanding or proving wrong the whole point which is: immigration causes problems. Of course some immigrants will integrate perfectly in their new country, what do you guys think ? But a lot won't and this is the main source of the pain.  It's not racist to say this and i sincerely hope humanity will find a non-violent solution.

Merry Christmas folks, i asked Santa Claus for world peace, i think he didn't receive my letter in time Thumbs up


EDIT: in fact it appears India receive its fair share of immigrants, didn't know that mybad


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Post by Warrior Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:02 am

Before someone takes a shortcut in my reasoning, i think immigration causes problems, but i don't believe immigrants should take all of the blame. The welcoming societies are at fault too in a certain way. This not based on bad faith from either side but somehow there is a failure in the coexistence process.

In my ideal world there would be no such thing as immigration but in reality we have to face it and deal with it in the most benevolent possible way.
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