Re: Let's talk about the 3-4-3

by DeletedUser#1 Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:14 am

Don't call me James wrote:Sepp, if you are talking about me saying this formation is not sustainable in the long run, this is not what I meant.

When I say in the long run, I mean we will not win the CL with this formation or be one of the best sides in the world again. I just can't see this formation doing that.

But like I said this is my personal formation and I use it on FIFA and FM all the time. I just never thought it would actually work in real life so well and Brendan has done well implementing and great credit to him.

But I still don't think it's going to be sustainable down the line.

McAgger!

We've won ONE CL and no league titles in quarter of a decade. We haven't been a "best" top top team for 25 years now. Be it with 4 man defense, 3 men defense, 5 men defense, 2 DMs, 1 up top, 2 up top etc.

It's not like we have anything to lose.

Before tonight, Chelsea had average 16 shots in each game this season. The least amount they had was 5. Tonight they had 2. One was a penalty and the other one was a Felipe Luis shot that probably landed at Goodison Park.

Most people's worries about this system was the defensive aspect of it, as opposed to offensive. So in my mind, as long as it improves our defense without sacrificing our offense (As it has done to this date), then it's the way to go.

We'll have a better look of its efficiency going forward when DStudge is back hopefully.

As much as I hate Mourinho, (And trust me I really hated Hitler as well), there aren't many better tactical managers to exploit a flawed system....well, perhaps we'll know a bit better about defensive solidarity of this system next Tuesday when Chelsea will push more men forward (in turn allowing us to counter effectively. Newcastle could have had a bucketload there, so can we).

I think the one thing that goes missing here is that in this formation we're allowed to press a lot more aggressively compared to the ones before, allowing in higher intensity games and fast paced passes.

even at RedCafe's match thread tonight, they were walking off to it and were pissed off why LVG can't make their 3-5-2 be as good going forward as this Laughing

by mr-r34 Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:18 am

I would love to see how this setup works with an actual striker who wont press as much or drop as deep as sterling does at time, he gives us an extra man in the middle on occasions but when we move the ball forward no ones there to take advantage of breaks we make.

by Art Morte Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:28 am

Well, it's almost the Christmas tree that I suggested before hmm

The key is playing the three top-most players narrow, not wide like we did earlier in the season. The Diamond has worked for us, where they're 1-2, and this one's working where they're 2-1.

I think we could keep up the performance level if we switched to 4-3-3 Diamond or Christmas tree, have an extra man in midfield instead of the defense. However, our three CBs in the current formation are pretty comfortable keeping possession, so that's a plus. I'd also like Can to make even more forward runs, because he's got the skills and the fact we'd still have two CBs staying back allows him to make those runs.

Anyway, this 3-4-3, the 4-3-3 diamond or the 4-3-3 Christmas tree are what we should be playing. Like Mr34 said, we've got a hugely important run of games coming up and that's the real test for our way of playing. If the 3-4-3 works during that period, great. If it doesn't, I hope we don't mess much with the front three, just go back to a four-man back line and a three-man midfield.

by iftikhar Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:00 am

I think there's a bit hyperbole about 343 from either sides. It's not shit and neither it's fool-proof. It has shown it's advantages while exposing the vulnerabilities too.

I think the key is flexibility & vision. While Rodgers has shown the acumen to adapt this system he should be prepared to change/adapt to changing realities.

I would say we can/should start with 343 from now on while Rodgers must show/have the flexibility & vision to change if that necessitate.

by Helmer Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:42 am

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:Sepi, I had really thought that space behind Markovic and Moreno would get exposed , and it would lead to chaos in defense because Lucas and Hendo would have too much to cover every time in transition. Till now it seems like it has worked.

was almost the case yesterday plus our 3 CBs making wrong decisions in the first half.

by Helmer Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:04 pm

Former Liverpool defender Mark Lawrenson expands on his TV analysis of how the Reds' improvement at the back is behind their rise up the Premier League table after they beat Southampton on Sunday to continue their push for a top-four place.
People have spent a large part of this season waiting for Liverpool's new-look attack to click but it is their defence that has played a big part in the Reds' return to form.
The 3-4-2-1 formation that manager Brendan Rodgers has adopted since the end of last year suits their fast attacking players but has given them solidity at the back too.

Liverpool have not become a defensive-minded team but that has given them a different way of winning games, compared to last season when their tactic was 'attack or bust' and they would concede goals but just look to outscore the opposition.
They showed it against Southampton on Sunday in a game where they were not free-flowing going forward - they only had one shot at goal in the first 70 minutes - and came under a lot of pressure.
They rode their luck a bit at St Mary's, especially with some of the decisions that went in their favour because Saints could have had at least one penalty.
But their 2-0 win was their sixth clean sheet in a 10-game unbeaten run in the Premier League, and it is clear Rodgers can rely on his defence to win him points now too.

Three at the back doing better than four

Sometimes in football you stumble on to something that is successful.
After paying £20m for centre-back Dejan Lovren in the summer, Liverpool clearly wanted and expected him to come in and be a ready-made rock.
That did not happen.
Rodgers was looking to play four at the back when he signed Lovren but it did not work - he would not have tried a three-man defence if it had.

Liverpool's average formation vs Southampton

He probably did not plan to play Emre Can at the back either, although he had played in that position before.
But he has been brilliant as part of that back three, and is able to play either side of Martin Skrtel - he has been on the right in the last few matches but operated on the left against Southampton.
The thing about Can is that he can use the ball and his passing ability from that position has made a big difference to the team.

Emre Can's touches vs Southampton

Something else that has helped goalkeeper Simon Mignolet in particular is having a settled line-up at the back too.
It was the same during my career - when you play alongside people regularly in defence you start to appreciate what each of them can do.
Lovren came back in for Mamadou Sakho against Saints but that was their first change at the back for seven matches.
They were a bit shaky at the back at first, but got better and better as the game went on.

Ibe gives Reds a boost down the right

The real bonus has been the emergence of Jordon Ibe - not just in terms of what he offers going forward but defensively too.
He really understands what the wing-back role is all about and he has got such fantastic pace that, even if he does make a mistake, he has got a chance of recovering.

Jordon Ibe's touches vs Southampton

Slowly but surely, Rodgers is finding players he can rely on in every position and even better he has got competition for places too.
At left wing-back he has alternated between a winger Lazar Markovic and a left-back Alberto Moreno, who is so attacking that it really suits his game.
Rodgers has shoehorned his attack-minded and quick players into his team to try to recreate the pace he had going forward last season.
It has taken him a while but he has managed it and found a system that allows them all to fit.

Liverpool hitting form at the right time

Even without playing well on Sunday, Liverpool have beaten one of their major rivals for a top-four finish.
It was a huge win anyway, but with Manchester United losing andTottenham also dropping points it was a very good week for the Reds.
Who will make it into the Champions League spots? Well I don't think Southampton can and I don't think Tottenham will.

With Chelsea and Manchester City contesting the title, that leaves two places between three sides - Arsenal, Manchester United and Liverpool.
Three months ago, when they lost to Crystal Palace and dropped to 12th in the table it did not look like Liverpool would be in the mix but all of a sudden they have taken off.
Mark Lawrenson was speaking to BBC Sport's Chris Bevan.

by iftikhar Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:31 am

Do you suppose Rodgers will stick with 3421 next season and buy accordingly in the summer?

Given our present squad and considering those who are absolutely certain to be retained, our options are:

Mignolet
Emre-Skrtel-Sakho/Lovren
Ibe/Flanagan-Henderson/Emre-Lucas/Allen-Markovic/Moreno
Coutinho-Raheem/Lallana
Sturridge/Origi/Lambert

If you consider the same set of players for 433:

Mignolet
Flanagan-Skrtel-Sakho/Lovren-Moreno
Emre/Lucas/Allen
Henderson/Emre-Coutinho
Ibe/Markovic-Sturridge/Lambert/Origi-Raheem/Origi

In 442:

Mignolet
Flanagan-Skrtel-Sakho/Lovren-Moreno
Emre/Lucas/Allen
Henderson/Emre/Lucas-Coutinho
Lallana/Raheem/Coutinho
Sturridge-Raheem/Origi/Lambert

by Art Morte Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:54 am

I don't see why Rodgers would change to a different formation at the start of next season, he seems to be happy about this one.

Personally I'd like to revert to the Diamond or Christmas Tree in some games where we could do with an extra man in central midfield, but the 3-4-3 is certainly getting the best out of several players.

What I'm the most curious about the 3-4-3 right now is that where will Sterling play when Sturridge is starting. He's looked somewhat disappointing in those attacking midfielder slots while Coutinho and Lallana have looked (much) better. Against City and in some other matches as well, it's interesting that Lallana has been put in wing-back position and Sterling in AM position after attacking substitutions have been made. Personally I think it should be the other way round and when Sturridge is starting I'd like to see Sterling play wing-back, not AM.

by Helmer Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:36 am

If we make new signings, I am sure Rodgers would consider a change. Because I think from his recent interviews it seems like he has learned that he needs to adaptive and flexible with his tactics. So I think it wont be only 3-4-3 next season, if the results are not coming, he might make few changes.

by Curtinho Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:17 pm

I think at this point Rodgers will use whatever formation he thinks will fit the team best. Obviously this formation is working so no real need to change but eventually teams will come up with ways to counter it and he'll need to adapt.

by iftikhar Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:57 pm

I think Rodgers favors 433. Didn't he deploy this formation at Swansea and first 1.5 years at Liverpool? The 442 (diamond) in second-half of last season and the 3421 in the second-half of this season are strategic responses.

by Nishankly Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:46 pm

Is Sterling wasted at RWB?

by Art Morte Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:12 pm

Nishy wrote:Is Sterling wasted at RWB?

You mean LWB? hmm

No, I think he suits that role very well. Coutinho obviously has made one of the two AM slots his and I think Lallana looks a better fit to the other AM spot than Sterling. So, if we want to play all of them, I think Raheem should play wing-back. It's basically like a winger anyway, which arguably is still Sterling's most natural and original position.

About formations, we were playing 3-5-2 after Balotelli came on, it was him and Sturridge up front both playing striker. Yet we couldn't play the ball to them and were lacking a link behind them. No one took the responsibility to try and get closer to those two and feed them balls on the ground, so we resorted to crossing it a lot. If we're going to be playing with two strikers, I think it should be the diamond and not that 3-5-2 we saw against Blackburn in the 2nd half.

by iftikhar Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:34 am

Art Morte wrote:
Nishy wrote:Is Sterling wasted at RWB?

You mean LWB?

No, I think he suits that role very well. Coutinho obviously has made one of the two AM slots his and I think Lallana looks a better fit to the other AM spot than Sterling. So, if we want to play all of them, I think Raheem should play wing-back. It's basically like a winger anyway, which arguably is still Sterling's most natural and original position.

About formations, we were playing 3-5-2 after Balotelli came on, it was him and Sturridge up front both playing striker. Yet we couldn't play the ball to them and were lacking a link behind them. No one took the responsibility to try and get closer to those two and feed them balls on the ground, so we resorted to crossing it a lot. If we're going to be playing with two strikers, I think it should be the diamond and not that 3-5-2 we saw against Blackburn in the 2nd half.

I don't think we should judge the effectiveness of any formation based on last night's performance. It was our latest bad match since the Everton game. I guess the (physical & mental) exhaustion finally took its toll.

by Art Morte Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:41 am

I didn't see exhaustion, I saw a team unable to break down deep-defending Blackburn because we didn't have anyone doing a job in between the lines and not enough ideas and movement. We made Blackburn look great at defending, because we didn't challenge them in the right areas.

by Red Alert Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:16 am

^

You're not wrong, but we were predictable and boring because of fatigue Art lol.

by DeletedUser#1 Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:51 pm

We've had the odd toothless stinker since switching the system and it happens to all teams in the world.

0-0 vs. Bolton
0-0 @ Everton
0-0 yesterday

It happens. This was the team's 4th match in 10 days and it showed towards the end. Funny thing is, EVERYONE expected us to put this performance against City, and wouldn't have been surprised.

good thing is FA Cup games are redeemable, unblike dropping points at league

by Nishankly Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:59 pm

Sterling is still the sharpest player infront of goal in this team, He's our top goal scorer. Im just thinking we might waste this sharpness just to fit in people in the starting 11.

by Art Morte Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:10 pm

Nishy wrote:Sterling is still the sharpest player infront of goal in this team.

I don't know about that, he's got his speed but hasn't convinced me that much as striker. He rarely creates a goal out of a half-chance, like good strikers do.

Moreover, he's probably played the most in the striker's position out of all of our strikers this season and still has only six goals in the Prem. And I'd say I want Lallana at AM with Coutinho rather than Sterling. I think a wing-back position is ideal for both Sterling's and the team's good right now.

Johnson - Skrtel - Sakho
Sterling - Henderson - Can - Ibe
Lallana - Coutinho
Sturridge

That's, imo, our best 3-4-3 XI right now.

by Helmer Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:26 pm

Can - Skrtel - Sakho
Sterling - Henderson - Allen - Ibe
Lallana - Coutinho
Sturridge

I think that is our strongest team hmm

by McAgger Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:14 pm

Mignolet
Can - Skrtel - Sakho
Ibe - Hendo - Lucas - Moreno
Sterling - Coutinho
Sturridge

That's our strongest line up for me with this formation.

by mr-r34 Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:44 pm

If sterling's our sharpest player in front of goals, we have massive problems.

by Nishankly Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:07 am

We do, We are arguably the bluntest in attack in the top4 competitors.

by Curtinho Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:52 pm

I dunno, I think Allen has been better than Lucas was the last few games. If he can keep his confidence up I rather have him in TBH. He also takes less fouls, but knows when to make a tactical one without picking up cards.

by McAgger Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:16 pm

Then you have already forgotten how good Lucas was for us.

Allen needs to carry this form for way more than 2 games for him to even touch Lucas' boots.

Since Lucas went down injured at Everton.

-Allen was woeful against Everton
-Decent against Palace
-Benched for Spurs
-Meh against Soton
-Amazing vs City
-Amazing vs Burnley

2 games. quit being so fickle. I love Allen's current form but give Lucas BeLieva the credit he deserves. In that shit period in the early part of the season Lucas was one of the only players performing up to par. And since December until that Everton game he's been AMAZING.

The only match that Rodgers (idiotically I might add) dropped Lucas in that run and played Allen was when we got slaughtered at United and Allen was the worst player on the pitch next to Lovren.

So please don't be fickle people.

by Curtinho Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:24 pm

Which is why I said 'the last few games' and 'if he can carry his form'.

Though I'm not sure if you are joking or not with the fickle thing, given the source. hmm

Let's not forget Lucas has had his fair share of stinkers. Meh against the likes of Leicester, Swansea (a match we dominated), Arsenal and was woeful against Basel. I would like to play whichever one is in better form, and to be honest Allen is just now starting to gain confidence again. Lucas will be returning from injury and we've seen before what he can look like in those cases (Allen also).

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